What's new

Egyptian Air Force: Repeating Past Mistakes

Frogman

SENIOR MEMBER
Joined
May 16, 2013
Messages
2,751
Reaction score
11
Country
Egypt
Location
Egypt
Egyptian Defence Review

Critical analysis of Egyptian Defence and Security

MiG35.jpg


Egyptian Air Force: Repeating Past Mistakes
Posted on July 2, 2017 by egygreenfly

Since the Peace Accords with Israel the Egyptian Air Force has gone through several changes. What was predominantly a Soviet equipped Air Force suddenly had to realign its procurement policies away from the Soviet Union and towards the West.

However it also had to keep several Soviet types such as the MiG – 21 in service as a stop-gap measure until it could induct newer, better, and most importantly supported fast jets after it cut relations with its former sponsor in favour of the United States. In order to help rebuild its Armed Forces $1.3 Billion of US government budget was allocated to Egypt for the past 40 odd years.

What was planned though did not happen what did is somewhat perplexing to the outside observer and angering to anyone who has heard of something called logistics. Without getting bogged down in the how or why of history or procurement processes for the sake of brevity and to avoid an increase in blood pressure, Egypt at the turn of the century was operating six different fast jets from four different sources not including light attack aircraft and advanced trainers (the latter two being another headache).

The backbone of the EAF past the year 2000 was around 200 Lockheed F – 16 Falcons of various Blocks. In addition to that rather large fleet they also operated dozens of Mikoyan MiG – 21, Chengdu F – 7, McDonell Douglas F – 4 Phantom II, Dassault Mirage V, and Dassault Mirage 2000 fighter jets. In total the EAF was operating over 400 fighter jets before 2012. So what’s wrong with that?

It’s hard to pick somewhere to begin given that the differences have consequences from the top down. We’ll start with training of technicians and pilots or anyone generally hands on with the air craft. Instead of training infrastructure for one or two similar types the Air Force had to support half a dozen, each with different standards, procedures, and techniques meaning that it would require a fair bit of retraining for conversion from one type to another which creates a force that is not very flexible to say the least. Career prospects would be limited to the type someone serves on as the Air Force itself will have very little incentive to retrain personnel.

The Egyptian Air Force has a very odd fixation with differentiating sources of armament. Although understandable through a political lens it makes less sense when they stop prioritising some of their most ‘secure’ platforms in favour of something completely different and usually less capable. To illustrate my point lets take the example of the Mirage in Egyptian service. They invested heavily in repair and overhaul facilities for no more than six squadrons of fighters that were due to be retired in fifteen years or less and even went as far as upgrading two squadrons of Mirage V in 2003 (a fighter at the fringe of the AF and currently held in tactical reserve with the proposition of them being sold to Lebanon) while neglecting the forces backbone that is set to remain in service until 2040 at least.

Read the entire article at: https://egyptdefreview.wordpress.com/2017/07/02/egyptian-air-force-repeating-past-mistakes/

follow Egyptian Defence Review on Twitter: https://twitter.com/EgyGreenfly
 
.
And may I add the biggest mystery is that even with the money and the political clout and so many suppliers
Egyptians did not start building themselves.
 
.
And may I add the biggest mystery is that even with the money and the political clout and so many suppliers
Egyptians did not start building themselves.

It's indicative of a larger problem that means Egypt is unable to effectively plan strategically.

Projects like locally assembling the Mirage 2000 died in the water while we procured other things. There was no follow up. We built many advanced trainers and basic trainers. There was no follow up.
 
.
It's indicative of a larger problem that means Egypt is unable to effectively plan strategically.

Projects like locally assembling the Mirage 2000 died in the water while we procured other things. There was no follow up. We built many advanced trainers and basic trainers. There was no follow up.

That happens when the following people are allowed to not only survive but flourish.

MV5BODQxNmM0MjUtZGNhMS00YjUwLWIwMjgtMjk4OTNjN2FjNjE3XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTU0NTQyMjk@._V1_UY1200_CR99,0,630,1200_AL_.jpg
 
.
It's indicative of a larger problem that means Egypt is unable to effectively plan strategically.

Projects like locally assembling the Mirage 2000 died in the water while we procured other things. There was no follow up. We built many advanced trainers and basic trainers. There was no follow up.

They didn't even need to build fighters in the onset, they could've designed a decent rifle instead of building 800 million Maadi Misr AK-47 copies. They could've done like the Chinese and taken some of the Matra Magics and developed and produced their own air to air missiles and improved on them. They could've behaved and not racked the most 3rd party infractions and got better ToT cooperation from the US or at least some of the restricted weapons and worked a deal to develop off of US weapons. Look what the Israelis did, from the Mekeva to the Tavor to the Trophy to the Python to the Derby and the list goes on. We should've taken advantage of the success of 1973 and sailed with it. The Egyptian soldier created the new standard in tank killing with the Russian Saggers and instead of capitalizing on that and developing a whole slew of ATWGMs, they built the same ones! How many SA-2's shot down planes in 1973? They couldn't develop a great, indigenous SAM with all that experience and success? It's not innovation that is lacking, it's something else, unfortunately.
 
.
They didn't even need to build fighters in the onset, they could've designed a decent rifle instead of building 800 million Maadi Misr AK-47 copies. They could've done like the Chinese and taken some of the Matra Magics and developed and produced their own air to air missiles and improved on them. They could've behaved and not racked the most 3rd party infractions and got better ToT cooperation from the US or at least some of the restricted weapons and worked a deal to develop off of US weapons. Look what the Israelis did, from the Mekeva to the Tavor to the Trophy to the Python to the Derby and the list goes on. We should've taken advantage of the success of 1973 and sailed with it. The Egyptian soldier created the new standard in tank killing with the Russian Saggers and instead of capitalizing on that and developing a whole slew of ATWGMs, they built the same ones! How many SA-2's shot down planes in 1973? They couldn't develop a great, indigenous SAM with all that experience and success? It's not innovation that is lacking, it's something else, unfortunately.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/netanyahu-on-israel-a-mighty-aircraft-carrier-of-the-us.504907/
 
. . .
While im not really a big fan of EAF, I believe this actually means the opposite, it shows how good they are, the fact that they are capable of operating all those different types of aircraft for decades shows that they have very skilled and flexible air force/pilots/technicians.. not that they are not very flexible wtf how even, they have been doing this for decades with no problem...it indicates expertise and flexibility they operated all these types of aircraft for decades and they know every little detail about them.

You just believe an opinion of some retard on a suspicious blog... who is that even and wtf is Egyptian Defence Review? some kid created this blog and now you take his words as some fkng military analyst? lmao
 
Last edited:
.
Egyptian Defence Review

Critical analysis of Egyptian Defence and Security

View attachment 408365

Egyptian Air Force: Repeating Past Mistakes
Posted on July 2, 2017 by egygreenfly

Since the Peace Accords with Israel the Egyptian Air Force has gone through several changes. What was predominantly a Soviet equipped Air Force suddenly had to realign its procurement policies away from the Soviet Union and towards the West.

However it also had to keep several Soviet types such as the MiG – 21 in service as a stop-gap measure until it could induct newer, better, and most importantly supported fast jets after it cut relations with its former sponsor in favour of the United States. In order to help rebuild its Armed Forces $1.3 Billion of US government budget was allocated to Egypt for the past 40 odd years.

What was planned though did not happen what did is somewhat perplexing to the outside observer and angering to anyone who has heard of something called logistics. Without getting bogged down in the how or why of history or procurement processes for the sake of brevity and to avoid an increase in blood pressure, Egypt at the turn of the century was operating six different fast jets from four different sources not including light attack aircraft and advanced trainers (the latter two being another headache).

The backbone of the EAF past the year 2000 was around 200 Lockheed F – 16 Falcons of various Blocks. In addition to that rather large fleet they also operated dozens of Mikoyan MiG – 21, Chengdu F – 7, McDonell Douglas F – 4 Phantom II, Dassault Mirage V, and Dassault Mirage 2000 fighter jets. In total the EAF was operating over 400 fighter jets before 2012. So what’s wrong with that?

It’s hard to pick somewhere to begin given that the differences have consequences from the top down. We’ll start with training of technicians and pilots or anyone generally hands on with the air craft. Instead of training infrastructure for one or two similar types the Air Force had to support half a dozen, each with different standards, procedures, and techniques meaning that it would require a fair bit of retraining for conversion from one type to another which creates a force that is not very flexible to say the least. Career prospects would be limited to the type someone serves on as the Air Force itself will have very little incentive to retrain personnel.

The Egyptian Air Force has a very odd fixation with differentiating sources of armament. Although understandable through a political lens it makes less sense when they stop prioritising some of their most ‘secure’ platforms in favour of something completely different and usually less capable. To illustrate my point lets take the example of the Mirage in Egyptian service. They invested heavily in repair and overhaul facilities for no more than six squadrons of fighters that were due to be retired in fifteen years or less and even went as far as upgrading two squadrons of Mirage V in 2003 (a fighter at the fringe of the AF and currently held in tactical reserve with the proposition of them being sold to Lebanon) while neglecting the forces backbone that is set to remain in service until 2040 at least.

Read the entire article at: https://egyptdefreview.wordpress.com/2017/07/02/egyptian-air-force-repeating-past-mistakes/

follow Egyptian Defence Review on Twitter: https://twitter.com/EgyGreenfly
I think that if Egypt , however slowly , continued Halwan-300 project and upgraded it to new versions, nowadays we could see a high tech 4++ fighter which could be a complete Egyptian fighter jet.
We , Muslim nations , have a common problem! We have no hope in our own abilities and always waiting on other country's aid.
300px-HA-300_side.jpg

Good piece of design for a 1960's interceptor.
 
.
I think that if Egypt , however slowly , continued Halwan-300 project and upgraded it to new versions, nowadays we could see a high tech 4++ fighter which could be a complete Egyptian fighter jet.
We , Muslim nations , have a common problem! We have no hope in our own abilities and always waiting on other country's aid.
300px-HA-300_side.jpg

Good piece of design for a 1960's interceptor.
yea we get aid too and we develop defence industry
 
.
You just believe an opinion of some retard on a suspicious blog... who is that even and wtf is Egyptian Defence Review? some kid created this blog and now you take his words as some fkng military analyst? lmao

Woah, easy. The author of the blog is actually the OP himself. Not only is he Egyptian, he's quite knowledgeable about military subjects in general and specifically the Egyptian military. He's done several in-depth interviews and analysis' of the Thunderbolts (Sa3ka) and other Egyptian military units/programs. So he's quite familiar with and knowledgeable about the Egyptian military.

Maybe asking how and what he's basing is opinions on would be a better way to go? :-)

While im not really a big fan of EAF, I believe this actually means the opposite, it shows how good they are, the fact that they are capable of operating all those different types of aircraft for decades shows that they have very skilled and flexible air force/pilots/technicians.. not that they are not very flexible wtf how even, they have been doing this for decades with no problem...it indicates expertise and flexibility they operated all these types of aircraft for decades and they know every little detail about them.

I don't think many would disagree with what you said, but come time of war, diversity in weapons systems can be a blessing and a curse. It's a good thing in the sense that you have several suppliers and if one blocks you out, you have the other so you're not depending on one source. The curse is the compatibility of the platforms, which many would agree is more important. Different platforms from different sources are much harder to integrate into one, fully effective system, whereas different platforms -- but from the same, general source -- are much more compatible with one another, hence giving you that necessary advantage. Compatibility and integration is more often viewed as the much better option for success on the battlefield, but especially in the air, and that's the main point of the topic. There's a lot of truth and examples to support that.

Many (if not most) of us would've much preferred to see the EAF increase the number of Rafales instead of opting for the MiG-35. If it was a cost issue, the Gripen would've made an excellent choice as well and stayed in line with the 'compatibility' philosophy.
 
.
in number it looks big but in decent aerial warfare Egypt wont last as most of the planes are old and most F16 are old model and cannot do BVR
 
.
in number it looks big but in decent aerial warfare Egypt wont last as most of the planes are old and most F16 are old model and cannot do BVR
On June 25, 1980, Egypt signed a letter of agreement to acquire 42 block 15 F-16A/B fighters (34 single-seaters and 8 two-seaters) under the Peace Vector I FMS (Foreign Military Sales) program. By 1997, all Block 15 aircraft were (or were being) modified to block 42 standard
One year later, Egypt ordered 40 additional F-16C/D's (34 C's and six D's) with AIM-7 Sparrow capability. These were block 32 machines, and were some of the few examples of F-16C/D's being built that were compatible with the AIM-7 Sparrow. By 1997, all block 32 aircraft were modified to Block 42's
In June of 1990, Egypt signed an order for 52 block 52 F-16C/D's(40C and 12D), powered by the General Electric F110 turbofan. This order was under Peace Vector III,
Early 1990s, a contract to produce 46 Block 40 F-16C/D's (34C and 12D) for the Egyptian Air Force was placed with TUSAS Aerospace Industries (TAI) of Turkey. This was carried out under the auspices of the Peace Vector IV program. The aircraft are initially delivered to the USAF, which then turned them over to Egypt. Egypt had received a total of 175 Fighting Falcons by the time all the TAI machines were delivered. Total contracted 180.
In May 1996 the governments of Egypt and the United States signed an agreement providing for the sale of 21 new F-16C/D Block 40 aircraft to the Egyptian air force. The engines will be the General Electric F110-GE100B. Under
Peace Vector V
On March 6th 1999, under Peace Vector VI, the United States agreed to sell Egypt 24 F-16C/D Block 40 aircraft.
On December 24th, 2009 the US signed a contract with Egypt for the delivery of 20 new F-16C/Ds Block 52 under the known Peace Vector series.

Total contracted 240


All aircraft in the Block 15 and 32 series have been or will be upgraded with most Block 40/42 features

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article4.html

So, at least some, if not all F-16 C/D have AIM-7 capability, availability confirmed in Egyptian inventory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_munitions_used_by_the_Egyptian_Air_Force

Sipri
US to Egypt, 1950-2016, missiles
70 AIM-7E Sparrow BVRAAM 1979 1979-1980 Part of $594 m deal; for F-4E combat aircraft
300 AIM-7M Sparrow BVRAAM 1982 1984-1987 For Skyguard (Amoun) SAM systems
282 AIM-7M Sparrow BVRAAM 1987 1991-1992 $42 m deal; for F-16C/D combat aircraft
271 AIM-7M Sparrow BVRAAM 1996 1996-1997 $80 m deal; for F-16C/D combat aircraft

Looks like Sparrow purchases coincided with Peace Vector I&II upgrade to block 42 and Peace Vector V

Total Sparrow E/F/M/P available for BVR:
623

AIM-7 operators
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-7_Sparrow#Operators
 
Last edited:
.
in number it looks big but in decent aerial warfare Egypt wont last as most of the planes are old and most F16 are old model and cannot do BVR
The Egyptian old F-16s can do BVR from 50 km.. that enough for interception jobs..
 
.

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom