Egypt mulls JF-17 co-production

[TaimiKhan]

^^^^ Pakistan had a bad experience in selling K-8 alone because all the hardware comes from China.
Italy Spain and France: they have many joint productions and divide their share when exporting hardware.

Another reason for Pakistan not selling K-8 was because, it itself had not ordered many K-8s, thus no major local production happened.

I remember to have read somewhere that at one time PAC had stopped producing parts of K-8, as the arrangement made it costly.

But later on they have started it again and i believe they do get orders for some parts from China.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

^^^^^^In December 1999, China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC) signed a contract with Egypt to co-produce 80 K-8 trainer aircraft under license. These aircraft were to be built in Egypt using Chinese-supplied kits, and were given a new designation K-8E. CATIC was responsible for helping the Egyptian contractor to build the aircraft assembly line as well as providing necessary technical assistance and post-sale services.

K-8 Foreign Sales - SinoDefence.com

China is already in Egyptian market , Pakistan can't do solo flight in selling JF-17s, they lost in case of K8s

 

[TaimiKhan]

My Question is still not answered. What technology are we talking about in case on ToT?
We don't build engines, avionics etc. Then what kind of technology are we going to transfer(if any)?
Another question: Since engines are from Russia, are we allowed to sell these to a third party or do they have to talk to Russian themselves for engines? How is this done?

We won't be transferring any ToT, we will do the deal and as it is a joint venture, China & Pakistan will both provide the technologies. Seeing as per past deals of China, it would be a ToT & ToPT both. Some things would be fully ToT and some things would be full ToPT. If you read the article fully, the delay being caused is on the negotiations of what to transfer and what not.

And even if fully ToT is provided, it would be years after its done. China & Pakistan won't let it happen so easily.

And as for engine, plz read the below linked article. Russia already gave go ahead for RD-93 export to 6 countries, Egypt one of them.

China to Re-Export Russian Jet Engine - Kommersant Moscow

And yeah we are currently making some avionics, but as said, the full range of industrial technology would be provided by China as they are the real makers of this stuff.

We being a partner is this deal, are negotiating with a buyer, but consent of China and its involvement in the deal is natural.

 

[SBD-3]

China is already in Egyptian market , Pakistan can't do solo flight in selling JF-17s, they lost in case of K8s

As I have said it again and again that the solo flight stuff is not possible.....1st of all as JF is a JV so both China and Pakistan will have their intellectual property rights...(I think Pakistan has contributed more towards the development cost than China- rather than 50-50 its is more like 51~60-49~40) as reportedly Pakistan is also funding the double seat training and Dedicated Attack version...so this ratio is poised to further dilute in favour of Pakistan.But having said that...if some people think that PAC should make this order rather than CAC....There is a simple rule in Economics....when working at the current full capacity....the producers won't install aditional capacity unless they foresee a long term incentive of stable exploitation of benifits of demand shock (increase)....Applying this theory to PAC....we see that Egypt may place an order of 48-100 JFs indicating benfit potential (labour benifit as more employment, poverty reduction etc) but we must also see that is it going to be long enough to cover the oppertunity cost of expension?(production, Fix, Veriable to be genrealist). As the PAC is already working at full capacity to cater PAF. It would prove a benificial decesion but only in the short run as plane won't have long term stable demand (like Mig-21 and F-16 for ex)...so if CAC has excess capacity then it should produce the order...PAF will be worthwhile as it will get its share of profit from the sales even without having to make a neddle...In short, it is irrelevant that who produces the aircraft and who negotiate...its a win-win situation for PAF even if CAC produces this order

 

[moving_ahead]

I don't think that selling the JF17 thunder to Egypt is a great idea if we have to sell the production facility


#1 We invested billions in research and development , so why
should we just sell , the R&D just like that to egypt if just for
48 planes ?

#2 Egypt has to invest 1.5 billion if its wants its own assembly facility
in egypt

very true very true pakistan need to strenghten its trade.this isnt any chocolate recipe to pass just for 50 planes

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

very true very true pakistan need to strenghten its trade.this isnt any chocolate recipe to pass just for 50 planes

Well there is some development on the issue as , now the figure of planes is close to 200-300 planes so the deal is good now

 

[Dazzler]

Egypt was interested in this project right from the beginning and was willing for a license manufacturing capability as mentioned in the article. Just like Azerbaijan, they are interested in the JF-17 configuration coupled with Chinese and Western systems. Radar is likely to be Chinese as they are interested in the SD-10 BVR very much. Negotiations are underway for a year and will likely be finalized this year. Pakistan owns 58 % share of the entire project so we will benefit in any case whether the deal signed by us or China. More good news will appear INSHA ALLAH because two more countries are interested in the Thunder although not license manufacturing arrangement.

 

[Developereo]

Egyptians would be very much interested in the flight systems and system integration---plus the italian and french electronics packages that pak is working wioth the italians and the french.

I think that's the crucial reason why the Egyptians may be dealing with Pakistan rather than China. They, too, may be interested in putting Western avionics on the plane.

This could turn out to be a good business model going forward. Pak-China joint develop plug-and-play systems, then Pak demonstrates coupling it with Western components.

This would make Pakistan the logical choice to sell the hybrid system.

Finally, as taimikhan said, the whole thing is still in negotiation. Let's hold off the party until the check clears the bank.

 

[sancho]

though mentioned my others, i will again say that at the moment we cant even meet our own requirements and therefore need china to simultaneously produce them for us. so how do you expect us to produce for a third country in such a massive quantity. and if we do, by the time we deliver the last plane, this tech will already be obsolete and will require some upgrades in form of blk II or something. its better to let them have the assembly and to some extent the production line as well.
at this stage we need to earn some name. its not yet time to start thinking about huge monetary profits

You get me wrong! I know you produce JF in Pakistan and at the moment with parts of the production from China too. But do you also produce the Chinese radar and avionics in Pakistan under licence, or will you produce them? Because if not, you also get these from China and assemble them only in Pakistan and this would be similar for export customers like Egypt in future too right?
What I want to know is, from which parts of an exported JF 17, does Pakistan really benefit?

No offense, just curious!

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

You get me wrong! I know you produce JF in Pakistan and at the moment with parts of the production from China too. But do you also produce the Chinese radar and avionics in Pakistan under licence, or will you produce them? Because if not, you also get these from China and assemble them only in Pakistan and this would be similar for export customers like Egypt in future too right?
What I want to know is, from which parts of an exported JF 17, does Pakistan really benefit?

No offense, just curious!

We get 50% of the revenue

 

[araz]

I think that's the crucial reason why the Egyptians may be dealing with Pakistan rather than China. They, too, may be interested in putting Western avionics on the plane.

This could turn out to be a good business model going forward. Pak-China joint develop plug-and-play systems, then Pak demonstrates coupling it with Western components.

This would make Pakistan the logical choice to sell the hybrid system.

Finally, as taimikhan said, the whole thing is still in negotiation. Let's hold off the party until the check clears the bank.

Where as i am happy for the project to generate such interest internationally, members need to temper their thoughts. We may be a good partnership and this project may have developed in time when there is a desperate need for such a fighter. We however need to understand that as a selling agent POF has not done well and considering the products, we are not doing half as well as we can.The reason is the way the administration is configured around Ex army/forces people who have little experience in the selling side of things.POF may have have to have a commercial mindset to sell stuff and for that they need to hire specialized staff. At the moment this is not happening and this is holding us back. Secondly, the reason for the success of thunder is the need in the market for such an aircraft.We also need to be able to have a vision of what the needs in the next decades are going to be and cater to those . Fro this we will need people who are thinkers with a military background. Alkhalid may have suffered on account of the lack of experience of our selling team.
Araz

 

[araz]

Egypt was interested in this project right from the beginning and was willing for a license manufacturing capability as mentioned in the article. Just like Azerbaijan, they are interested in the JF-17 configuration coupled with Chinese and Western systems. Radar is likely to be Chinese as they are interested in the SD-10 BVR very much. Negotiations are underway for a year and will likely be finalized this year. Pakistan owns 58 % share of the entire project so we will benefit in any case whether the deal signed by us or China. More good news will appear INSHA ALLAH because two more countries are interested in the Thunder although not license manufacturing arrangement.

nabil
A question which is on my mnd.Is JF going to be sold just with Chinese equipment or is it a case of customer demand determining the equipment we put in.
Regards
Araz

 

[TailChoppers]

In addition, the requirement was for the aircraft to have sufficient space for future upgrades and/or equipment specified by export buyers.

according to this article here Joint Fighter-17 (JF-17) Thunder / Fighter China-1 (FC-1) Fierce Dragon

plus every where else it has been clearly mentioned that customers can either opt for the Pakistani/Western or Chinese avionics. JF-17 is flexible that way.

 

[AVIAN]

I think that's the crucial reason why the Egyptians may be dealing with Pakistan rather than China. They, too, may be interested in putting Western avionics on the plane.

This could turn out to be a good business model going forward. Pak-China joint develop plug-and-play systems, then Pak demonstrates coupling it with Western components.

This would make Pakistan the logical choice to sell the hybrid system.

Finally, as taimikhan said, the whole thing is still in negotiation. Let's hold off the party until the check clears the bank.

I am not that highly willing to agree with you. Since Pakistan is yet to show some capability in integrating Western avionics on JF-17, as so far China is the sole determiner of what could be best configured on JF-17. My disagreement steam from the fact that, Pakistan yet to choose any viable western option be it a Radar system, avionics or subsystems of any american or europen origion.

Unless Pakistan doesn't showcase similar capability by doing the same and successfully fielding JF-17 with something western till then I don't think Egypt would be hardly interested in having the same in its fleet. As they are already operating much advanced F-16 even with a string attached, at the same time they are facing highly superior airforce in neigbourhood in the form of Isreali Airforce, it will be highly immature of Egypt to take JF-17 in its fleet which still neither represent any technological jump as compared to what Isreali's have in their fleet.

 

[Dazzler]

@Araz

The basic configuration will be Chinese FC-1 but customers can opt for western configuration. Both Egypt and Azerbaijan have opted for latter.