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Eastern Anatolian Conflicts 1800's - 1920 | News & Discussions

Das hat nichts mit Türken zu tun. Armenier simd christen und uns näher. verständlich das wir sie unterstützen. Wie die türkei reagiert ist egal in dem fall. Was erwartest du? das wir unsere brüder verraten und zur türkei halten?

Ich weiß zwar nicht wieso du denkst das ein von den Türken verübtes Verbrechen nichts mit den Türken zu tun hat, aber sei es drum. Doch mir entschließt sich vollkommen der Gedanke warum die Armenier plötzlich eure Brüder sind? Auf Grund des Glaubens etwa? Du hast recht, du bist wirklich kein Deutscher.
 
@Hakan ,@waz ,do something about this idiot MarkusS.

Brother there is way too many insults in this thread and we all need to stay clam.

@waz please stop his insults against me.

Markus my friend, this thread is now poison and we all need a break.


Folks the thread is closed. I don't even understand the posts in German. o_O
 
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The Armenian diaspora's misleading show

İLNUR ÇEVIK@ilnurcevik

  • Western politicians are either too naïve or they are extremely sinister and do not mean well for the well-being of Turkey. The controversy over the incidents of 1915 in eastern Anatolia, where the Ottomans are blamed by those who have been misled by the global Armenian lobby for committing genocide, is raging like mad as the April 24 anniversary of the so-called incident approaches.

    That is exactly what is happening with Turkey and the Armenians. The Armenians have made the world swallow a yarn that 1.5 million Armenians were massacred in 1915 by the Ottomans and Turkey has been made to pay the price all these years.

    This year is even more special as it is the 100-year anniversary of the 1915 events and has sharpened the Armenian resolve to get the world to acknowledge that what has happened to their ancestors was an act of genocide.

    Armenians gang up with Russians and massacred Turks in their tens of thousands and were punished by the Ottoman bureaucrats who moved them away from eastern Anatolia and to other parts of the empire, especially to lands in the Middle East. Yes, many perished in revenge killings, attacks by Kurdish gangs on the convoys and due to disease as they were forced to migrate. The fact that hundreds of thousand survived the events of 1915 and that the Armenians who live throughout the world are their grandchildren shows the extent of the Armenian exaggeration.

    The Armenian diaspora put up a convincing show and the world was misled. No one bothered to check their own archives in the West to get to the bottom of the Armenian claims. Turkey failed to make its voice heard properly not only because of its incompetence but also because of the traditional Western enmity toward Turkey, and they turned their ears deaf in the Western capitals.

    Now the Armenians are crying and shedding crocodile tears as they watch the world butcher Turkey. The so-called allies of Turkey in Europe on the other hand say "we are blaming the old Turks and not the current Turks for the massacres so there is no reason why you should be offended."

    It seems these naïve gentlemen do not understand the fact that behind the Armenian claim is a much bigger game. The Armenians first want the world to acknowledge the ‘genocide claims'. Then their aim is to use this acknowledgement to build up their case to lay claim on Turkish territory in eastern Anatolia and also demand massive compensation for the so-called Armenian victims.

    The events of 1915 belong to history. Turkey offered to set up a joint commission with Armenia to look into the allegations by opening up the historical archives and making public the old facts. The Armenians did not even respond.

    If justice is to prevail, the Western powers should question why the Armenian diaspora and Armenian leaders sanctioned the assassination of so many Turkish diplomats and their dependents across Europe in the 1980s and no one did anything about it. After all, those killings were in modern times and not in the first days of the 20th century turmoil.

    The pope has made a big mistake. The Europeans are following course. Let us hope the Americans don't get carried away.
The Armenian diasporas misleading show - İlnur Çevik - Daily Sabah
COLUMNSThe Armenian diaspora's misleading show
 
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The Armenian diaspora's misleading show

İLNUR ÇEVIK@ilnurcevik

  • Western politicians are either too naïve or they are extremely sinister and do not mean well for the well-being of Turkey. The controversy over the incidents of 1915 in eastern Anatolia, where the Ottomans are blamed by those who have been misled by the global Armenian lobby for committing genocide, is raging like mad as the April 24 anniversary of the so-called incident approaches.

    That is exactly what is happening with Turkey and the Armenians. The Armenians have made the world swallow a yarn that 1.5 million Armenians were massacred in 1915 by the Ottomans and Turkey has been made to pay the price all these years.

    This year is even more special as it is the 100-year anniversary of the 1915 events and has sharpened the Armenian resolve to get the world to acknowledge that what has happened to their ancestors was an act of genocide.

    Armenians gang up with Russians and massacred Turks in their tens of thousands and were punished by the Ottoman bureaucrats who moved them away from eastern Anatolia and to other parts of the empire, especially to lands in the Middle East. Yes, many perished in revenge killings, attacks by Kurdish gangs on the convoys and due to disease as they were forced to migrate. The fact that hundreds of thousand survived the events of 1915 and that the Armenians who live throughout the world are their grandchildren shows the extent of the Armenian exaggeration.

    The Armenian diaspora put up a convincing show and the world was misled. No one bothered to check their own archives in the West to get to the bottom of the Armenian claims. Turkey failed to make its voice heard properly not only because of its incompetence but also because of the traditional Western enmity toward Turkey, and they turned their ears deaf in the Western capitals.

    Now the Armenians are crying and shedding crocodile tears as they watch the world butcher Turkey. The so-called allies of Turkey in Europe on the other hand say "we are blaming the old Turks and not the current Turks for the massacres so there is no reason why you should be offended."

    It seems these naïve gentlemen do not understand the fact that behind the Armenian claim is a much bigger game. The Armenians first want the world to acknowledge the ‘genocide claims'. Then their aim is to use this acknowledgement to build up their case to lay claim on Turkish territory in eastern Anatolia and also demand massive compensation for the so-called Armenian victims.

    The events of 1915 belong to history. Turkey offered to set up a joint commission with Armenia to look into the allegations by opening up the historical archives and making public the old facts. The Armenians did not even respond.

    If justice is to prevail, the Western powers should question why the Armenian diaspora and Armenian leaders sanctioned the assassination of so many Turkish diplomats and their dependents across Europe in the 1980s and no one did anything about it. After all, those killings were in modern times and not in the first days of the 20th century turmoil.

    The pope has made a big mistake. The Europeans are following course. Let us hope the Americans don't get carried away.
The Armenian diasporas misleading show - İlnur Çevik - Daily Sabah
COLUMNSThe Armenian diaspora's misleading show

“If we sent one, your newspapers and periodicals would not publish an article written by a Turk, if they published it, your people would not read it, if they read it, they would not believe it. Even if we sent a qualified person to America, to convey to you in your language, the Turkish point of view, would he find an impartial audience?”

1922 Sultan Mehmed Vl

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lies, Damn Lies, and Armenian Deaths

On April 24, 2009--Armenian Remembrance Day-- President Barack Obama issued a statement "remember[ing] the 1.5 million Armenian [deaths] in the final days of the Ottoman Empire." The President stumbled.

To paraphrase Mark Twain, there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and the number of Armenians who are claimed by Armenians and their echo chambers to have died in an alleged World War I genocide. Almost a century later, the number of deaths they assert oscillates between 1.5-2 million. But the best contemporary estimates by Armenians or their sympathizers were 300,000-750,000 (compared with 2.4 million Ottoman Muslim deaths in Anatolia). Further, not a single one of those deaths necessarily falls within the definition of genocide in the authoritative Genocide Convention of 1948. It requires proof that the accused was responsible for the physical destruction of a group in whole or in substantial part specifically because of their race, nationality, religion, or ethnicity. A political or military motivation for a death falls outside the definition.

Immediately after the war, when events and memories were fresh, Armenians had no incentive to concoct high casualty figures or genocidal motivations for their deaths. Their objective was statehood. Armenians were encouraged by the self-determination concept in President Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points, (while conveniently forgetting that they were a minority in Eastern Anatolia where they hoped to found a new nation). Armenian leaders pointed to their military contribution to defeating the Ottomans and population figures that would sustain an Armenian nation.

Boghus Nubar, then Head of the Armenian Delegation to the Paris Peace Conference (1919), wrote to the French Foreign Minister Stephen Pichon: "The Armenians have been, since the beginning of the war, de facto belligerents, as you yourself have acknowledged, since they have fought alongside the Allies on all fronts, enduring heavy sacrifices and great suffering for the sake of their unshakable attachment to the cause of the Entente...." Nubar had earlier written to the Foreign Minister on October 29, 1918, that Armenians had earned their independence: "We have fought for it. We have poured out our blood for it without stint. Our people played a gallant part in the armies that won the victory."

When their quest for statehood shipwrecked on the Treaty of Lausanne and annexation by the Soviet Union in 1921, Armenians revised their soundtrack to endorse a contrived genocide thesis. It seeks a "pound of flesh" from the Republic of Turkey in the form of recognition, reparations, and boundary changes. To make their case more convincing, Armenians hiked the number of deaths. They also altered their story line from having died as belligerents against the Turks to having perished like unarmed helpless lambs.

Vahan Vardapet, an Armenian cleric, estimated a prewar Ottoman Armenian population of 1.26 million. At the Peace Conference, Armenian leader Nubar stated that 280,000 remained in the Empire and 700,000 had emigrated elsewhere. Accepting those Armenian figures, the number of dead would be 280,000. George Montgomery of the Armenia-American Society estimated a prewar Armenian population of 1.4-1.6 million, and a casualty figure of 500,000 or less. Armenian Van Cardashian, in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1919, placed the number of Armenian dead at 750,000, i.e., a prewar population of 1.5 million and a post-war figure of 750,000.

After statehood was lost, Armenians turned to their genocide playbook which exploited Christian bigotries and contempt for Ottoman Muslims. They remembered earlier successful anti-Ottoman propaganda. United States Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire during the war, Henry Morganthau, was openly racist and devoted to propaganda. On November 26, 1917, Morgenthau confessed in a letter to President Wilson that he intended to write a book vilifying Turks and Germans to, "win a victory for the war policy of the government." In his biography, "Ambassador Morgenthau's Story," Morgenthau betrays his racist hatred toward Turks ("humanity and civilization never for a moment enters their mind") and unconditional admiration for Armenians ("They are so superior to the Turks intellectually and morally.").

British Prime Minister Gladstone's histrionic figure of 60,000 Bulgarian Christians slaughtered in 1876 captured the imagination of the west. The true figure later provided by a British Ambassador was 3,500--including Turks who were first slain by the Christians.

From 280,000-750,000, Armenians initially raised their death count to 800,000 to test the credibility waters. It passed muster with uninformed politicians easily influenced by campaign contributions and voting clout. Armenians then jumped the number to 1.5 million, and then 1.8 million by Armenian historian Kevork Aslan. For the last decades, an Armenian majority seems to have settled on the 1.5 million death plateau--which still exceeds their contemporary estimates by 200 to 500 percent. They are now testing the waters at 2.5-3 million killed as their chances for a congressional genocide resolution recede. It speaks volumes that champions of the inflated death figures have no explanation for why Armenians on the scene would have erred. Think of the absurdity of discarding the current death count of Afghan civilians in the United States-Afghan war in favor of a number deduced in the year 2109!

Armenians have a genuine tale of woe. It largely overlaps with the tale of tragedy and suffering that can be told by Ottoman Muslims during the war years: 2.4 million deaths in Anatolia, ethnic cleansing, starvation, malnutrition, untreated epidemics, and traumatic privations of war under a decrepit and collapsing Empire.

Unskewed historical truth is the antechamber of Turkish-Armenian reconciliation. That is why the Government of Turkey has proposed an international commission of impartial and independent experts with access to all relevant archives to determine the number and characterization of World War I deaths. Armenians are balking because they are skeptical of their own figures and accusations.

Lies, Damn Lies, and Armenian Deaths | Bruce Fein
 
I wonder when they will actually realize that Turkey will never be coerced or tricked into accepting such a huge lie?
 
These Armenian discount near a million Muslims killed and an other million became refugees during WW I in the collapsing Ottoman Empire. Many Armenians sided with the invading Russian army and formed militias to attack the Turks. Most of the Armenians died during their trek to Syria due to march through the desert with low food rations and harsh weather. Armenian blaming modern Turks for the World War casualties is just a game encouraged by Armenians, Greeks, Russian, Germans, and EU to refuse Turkey;s entry in EU.
 
These Armenian discount near million of Muslims killed and an other million became refugees during WW I in the collapsing Ottoman Empire. Many Armenians sided with the invading Russian army and formed militias to attack the Turks. Most of the Armenians died during their trek to Syria due to march through the desert with low food rations and harsh weather. Armenian blaming modern Turks for the World War casualties is just a game encouraged by Armenians, Greeks, Russian, Germans, and EU to refuse Turkey;s entry in EU.

There is much more serious issue: if Turkey is bullied into playing the Armenian tune this will open up the floodgates and soon Greeks, Syrian Christians and who knows what people will come with their hands open demanding compensation and land. The mere thought fills me with fury. They can't bring us down militarily so they opt to cripple us economically and blacken our image in the world.
 
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There is much more serious issue: if Turkey is bullied into playing the Armenian tune this will open up the floodgates and soon Greeks, Syrian Christians and who knows what people will come with their hands open demanding compensation and land. The mere thought fills me with fury. They can't bring us down militarily so they opt to cripple us economically and blacken our image in the world.


Who did even try to "bring you down militarily"? Not to mention that most of the Turkish military projects are backed by Western/European technology.Sometimes to much paranoia isn't good.
 
@flamer84

It's obvious the EU doesn't want a fully independent Turkey. So they cause headaches by supporting the Armenian diaspora one day or tutoring Turkey on human rights or press freedom the other. As for the military projects the only reason they are in them is money or because they are in NATO. Don't talk to me about the EUs sincerity when the German BND is spying on Turkish officials, while another spy is caught in the company of the terrorist organization that recently martyred a prosecutor or Denmark releasing PKK supporters after which they started bitching about Turkey trading a Dutch national in return for the Mosul hostages. And don't come to me saying that some EU countries provided Patriots, they are bound by NATO to do so and I hope we will finalize our own high altitude defense systems soon because the Patriot proved itself to be a worthless piece of shit. They are not sincere which is fine but atleast they shouldnt act.
 
@flamer84

It's obvious the EU doesn't want a fully independent Turkey. So they cause headaches by supporting the Armenian diaspora one day or tutoring Turkey on human rights or press freedom the other. As for the military projects the only reason they are in them is money or because they are in NATO. Don't talk to me about the EUs sincerity when the German BND is spying on Turkish officials, while another spy is caught in the company of the terrorist organization that recently martyred a prosecutor or Denmark releasing PKK supporters after which they started bitching about Turkey trading a Dutch national in return for the Mosul hostages. And don't come to me saying that some EU countries provided Patriots, they are bound by NATO to do so and I hope we will finalize our own high altitude defense systems soon because the Patriot proved itself to be a worthless piece of shit. They are not sincere which is fine but atleast they shouldnt act.


1.The EU has stopped short from calling it a genocide because not all EU countries agree to the term,so there goes your entire blame game.

2.Press freedom,like it or not,is a serious problem in Erdogan's Turkey.They're right calling foul on that one.

3.Yeah,it's nice of you calling shit this,shit that ,but those countries are there to help you.It's quite embarassing to see people moan even when they're helped.

4.Money or not,you're getting a ton of European tech for your projects only to see you (you as in personally) moan again.I'm starting to think nothing pleases you.

5.Everybody spies on everybody,you'd be pretty naive to think that Turkey doesn't spy on European countries.
 
@flamer84

I'll stop moaning once the EU can stop moaning about Armenians and actually take an unbiased view.

By adding fuel to the fire the EU isn't helping it's only shooting us in the foot (and itself too) .
 
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TimesMachine: ARMENIANS ARE SENT TO PERISH IN DESERT; Turks Accused of Plan to Exterminate Whole Population People of Karahissar Massacred. - NYTimes.com

TimesMachine: MILLION ARMENIANS KILLED OR IN EXILE; American Committee on Relief Says Victims of Turks Are Steadily Increasing. POLICY OF EXTERMINATION More Atrocities Detailed in Support of Charge That Turkey Is Acting Deliberately. - NYTimes.com

There are always hidden interests (eg land or compensation claims) involved and it'd be cool if Turkey simply tried debating on these but disputing the massacres, the death marches and the Syrian concentration camps as historical events despite the acknowledgement that these have gotten from the majority of mainstream historians is working contrary to its own causes and objectives.
 
And what would you propose as a solution then? Turkey closing its ears and waiting until the Armenians stop? Doesn't sound like a very viable solution.
 
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