EADS Eurofighter in the MRCA competition Thread

[sancho]

Yes that was commented by then IAF chief Krisnaswamy. But the EFT Tranche 3 that the IAF been offered has full ATG and the best AESA radar among the MRCA contenders.

EFT is stealthier but not cost effective, though it might have less life time maintenance cost than Russian fighters used by the IAF.

As I said before, on paper yes, in reality it has not so far and every recent report hint it won't get these in time.

 

[Storm Force]

iTS A STRIAGHT FIGHT BETWEEN.

F18SH VERSIS TYPHOON.

India will go with F18SH if the yanks don,t crew up the TOT issues.

Cost and money is no longer a major concern to rising indian GDP

 

[Dawkins]

****** expensive bird i hear .. doesnt make sense to have it. The main countries investing in this are considering F-35 over this anyways. Anyways it seems Congress govt is keen to strengthen relationship with Uncle Sam and Super Hornet, the bomb truck is the future. It has proven kick *** performance and does A2G jolly well, might be a worthwhile pick.

 

[Dash]

iTS A STRIAGHT FIGHT BETWEEN.

F18SH VERSIS TYPHOON.

India will go with F18SH if the yanks don,t crew up the TOT issues.

Cost and money is no longer a major concern to rising indian GDP

Bro Storm force,
I dont think cost is a concern to India, however MOD will want to go for the most cost effective way. As we all know what happened to Airbus tanker-refueler deal. In fact in my openion money should be used wisely.

The most important factor for our Army should not be of spending all money on one expensive toy, but on spreading money on all other aspects, like gettiong right radar, good number of AWACS, refuelers, etc.

EFT is indeed a good fighter, but it was made for Air superriority. Dont forget EADS the company holding 46% share in this consortium has also gone throigh the tidious and cumbersome India procurement issues.

EFT lacks A2G capabilities and its AESA is just going through tests. India currently has good air superiority fighters(SU 30 MKI), and mostly its looking for A2G.

I think its the same reason they somehow liked SH18 as it is a very good Air to ground fighter with a proven AESA. We lack in this aspect of A2G.
May be we can say Rafale is a better choice with a French guaranteed TOT. but $100 million for this type of fighter is just not the right choice I feel.

Please comment.

 

[idea123]

IAF should go for F-18. Best package is offered with it.
Somewhere down the line PAK-FA would be there and would superceed EF and others.
cost wise 1 EF = 2 PAK-FA= ManyTejas

 

[sancho]

EFT lacks A2G capabilities and its AESA is just going through tests. India currently has good air superiority fighters(SU 30 MKI), and mostly its looking for A2G.

I think its the same reason they somehow liked SH18 as it is a very good Air to ground fighter with a proven AESA. We lack in this aspect of A2G.
May be we can say Rafale is a better choice with a French guaranteed TOT. but $100 million for this type of fighter is just not the right choice I feel.

Please comment.

That's the point and if you want exaclty the middle in terms of capablities of EF and F18SH, you have to take the Rafale!

Delta-canard design, good t/w ratio, very low RCS and Meteor BVR missile, like the EF on the one side. Very good A2G weapons with AASM, Scalp and Exocet, long range, high payload, excellent EWS and carrier capability as the F18SH on the other side.

When it comes to full ToT + Source codes, no problems with EUM, or other restrictions, customizations like Kaveri-Snecma engines, I think there is no comparable offer than the French.

This all has its cost of course, is it worth it? No doubt!

 

[Kinshuk]

Well just don't buy F 16 IN, Mig- 35 and Gripen.. Rest is fine with me... Can someone tell me when the first short list will be declared and the final winner also?

I will be relaxed if EF, Rafale and SH 18 are short listed, that would really be mouth watering then it doesn't matter who wins. All of them are good.

EF will sooner or later develop ground attack, its unquestionable but how well it does that is one..

Sancho,

Can you throw some light on the possible ground attack capabilits that can be integrated on EF in future. Will it be at par with that of rafale or even SH 18?

 

[Kinetic]

Bro Storm force,
I dont think cost is a concern to India, however MOD will want to go for the most cost effective way. As we all know what happened to Airbus tanker-refueler deal. In fact in my openion money should be used wisely.

The most important factor for our Army should not be of spending all money on one expensive toy, but on spreading money on all other aspects, like gettiong right radar, good number of AWACS, refuelers, etc.

EFT is indeed a good fighter, but it was made for Air superriority. Dont forget EADS the company holding 46% share in this consortium has also gone throigh the tidious and cumbersome India procurement issues.

EFT lacks A2G capabilities and its AESA is just going through tests. India currently has good air superiority fighters(SU 30 MKI), and mostly its looking for A2G.

I think its the same reason they somehow liked SH18 as it is a very good Air to ground fighter with a proven AESA. We lack in this aspect of A2G.
May be we can say Rafale is a better choice with a French guaranteed TOT. but $100 million for this type of fighter is just not the right choice I feel.

Please comment.

EFT Tranche 2 version already have many A2G capabilities and Tranche 3 will be fully capable.

Except two American fighters none of the contenders has a fielded AESA radar. CAESAR is undergoing flight evolution tests since 2007 and it will be ready before India get the MRCA. Actually the CAESAR is the better than APG-79, APG-80, NORA/Vixen, Zhuk-AE and RBE-2 AESA.

 

[Dash]

That's the point and if you want exaclty the middle in terms of capablities of EF and F18SH, you have to take the Rafale!

Delta-canard design, good t/w ratio, very low RCS and Meteor BVR missile, like the EF on the one side. Very good A2G weapons with AASM, Scalp and Exocet, long range, high payload, excellent EWS and carrier capability as the F18SH on the other side.

When it comes to full ToT + Source codes, no problems with EUM, or other restrictions, customizations like Kaveri-Snecma engines, I think there is no comparable offer than the French.

This all has its cost of course, is it worth it? No doubt!

Bro Sancho -

I feel it will not be good to take EFT. I feel there are two things here.
And trust me, right now I feel India is on a shopping spree and suddenly the forces have seen a open goverment on arms purchase and want to cash it.

In this process there is a fear that we might end up spending on something which was actually not needed for us.

A fighter like SH18 or Rafale are the best fighters for us. reason? they can best augment our other fleet.
Second the TOT, though I cant guarantee much TOT on SH18 but still you get a very potent fighter, Ea18 growler and what not. As far as TOT is concerned the US govt does has some objection on AESA tech but we are developing our own AESA and if I am right we will be fielding Russain AESA in some years. I know the NIIP AESA will come to MKIs shortly. may be we can seek a TOT there..

Even the Navy can use this. But it lacks in one field and thats manuevarability.
But its not a problem when the theory of modern warefare is BVR(not fully proven though.

Rafale is an OMNI role fighter and like you said low radar cross section.
and they might field Coptor AESA sooner that Selex.(correct me if I am wrong).
less logistical challenges due to comonality with Mirage.

In my openion these two fighters suits us the best. No Gripen, No Mig and No EFT for sure....however lets see.

 

[Kinetic]

IAF should go for F-18. Best package is offered with it.
Somewhere down the line PAK-FA would be there and would superceed EF and others.
cost wise 1 EF = 2 PAK-FA= ManyTejas

US govt have too much say about weapons exports. India got much lessons but not learned anything.

Cost (appr)

1 EF Typhoon $ 85 million
1 PAK FA $ 88 million

 

[sancho]

Well just don't buy F 16 IN, Mig- 35 and Gripen.. Rest is fine with me... Can someone tell me when the first short list will be declared and the final winner also?

I will be relaxed if EF, Rafale and SH 18 are short listed, that would really be mouth watering then it doesn't matter who wins. All of them are good.

EF will sooner or later develop ground attack, its unquestionable but how well it does that is one..

Sancho,

Can you throw some light on the possible ground attack capabilits that can be integrated on EF in future. Will it be at par with that of rafale or even SH 18?

Hi Kinshuk, I think all trials will be done till this summer, then they should shortlist 2-3 contenders, which will send final offers to MoD. How long MoD need to take a decision is unsure, because there will be a lot of talk and behind the scenes, lobbying by the companies and the media of course, so I don't expect a decision before the summer, or even the end of next year.
The final decision in Brazil was said to be taken in oct last year and now still nothing is clear. The MoD tries to get the best price/package, the vendors competing eachother with better offers. Recently there were reports that the price of Rafale was reduced for 40%, although it never was confirmed. Saab has now officially, the support of UK, that is a partner in the Selsex AESA radar development, so ToT of the radar should be no problem in case of Brazil.
As you can see, we will still have a lot of time for such discussions!

Imo EF won't be on par in A2G, because it lacks the range and the payload of F18SH, or Rafale and unlike these fighters it is not a carrier fighter, what means anti-ship, or strike capabilities at all was never needed to fulfill its main role!
Of course more capabilities were planed at the beginning and could be available if a customer is ready to fund the integration, but keep in mind that the EF members UK and ITA will are also members in F35 and that will be their main strike and carrier fighter in future. Why should they waste money to integrate costly anti-ship, or stand off missiles on EF, if F35 will be the much better plattform for them?
Till 2013 all EFs will have a targeting pod and some LGB mainly, anti-tank and stand off missiles was planed at the begining for T3, but it's not sure when, or if they come.

Except two American fighters none of the contenders has a fielded AESA radar. CAESAR is undergoing flight evolution tests since 2007 and it will be ready before India get the MRCA. Actually the CAESAR is the better than APG-79, APG-80, NORA/Vixen, Zhuk-AE and RBE-2 AESA.

CAESAR is far from beeing ready, because it's not even known what kind of radar it will be (swashplate, fixed) and the member countries have not agreed on it yet. Rafale was with AESA radar at the trials in Bangalore last year and the French forces will get their first F3 with serial produced AESA by 2012, before EF will be ready with the development.

 

[sancho]

A fighter like SH18 or Rafale are the best fighters for us. reason? they can best augment our other fleet.
Second the TOT, though I cant guarantee much TOT on SH18 but still you get a very potent fighter, Ea18 growler and what not. As far as TOT is concerned the US govt does has some objection on AESA tech but we are developing our own AESA and if I am right we will be fielding Russain AESA in some years. I know the NIIP AESA will come to MKIs shortly. may be we can seek a TOT there..

ToT is a major problem with US fighters and especially for our AESA development, ToT is very important. We are not able to develop a good AESA at the moment, that's why MoD searches for a foreign partner in the development.
Besides that, the F18SH is a good fighter for BVR and strikes, but I don't think we will get Growlers.

Rafale is an OMNI role fighter and like you said low radar cross section.
and they might field Coptor AESA sooner that Selex.(correct me if I am wrong).

You mean CAPTOR M, but thats the PESA radar of EF, which will be replaced by CEASAR AESA. The Rafale has RBE 2 AESA radar, which is the first radar from Europe that will be ready and it already was in Bangalore for the trials.

 

[A1Kaid]

China and other regional players should block this deal. In fact, it wouldn't be surprising if the Chinese oppose and work to block this procurement.

Though if India does operate and fully integrates the EU-Fighter into it's AF the challenging and critical scenario will be how will it face off against China's "J-XX" aircraft, of course we won't know that anytime soon but it's something to focus on.

 

[TOPGUN]

No doubt it is one of my fav aircraft may the best fighter win .

 

[krish]

Me either, my example was only to show that even if IAF wants only such good A2A performance and there is no focus on A2G, the EF wouldn't be the best choice.
The Gripen NG is not a bad choice because it is a single engine fighter, at the moment we have Mig 21 Bisons and Mirage 2000 that works pretty good side by side. The problem is that LCA MK2 is designed with the same aims and could be very close to the Gripen in A2A and only the weapons could make a difference (Amraam, or Meteor, vs R77, or Astra). In A2G the NG should offer some more advantages, but compared to other MMRCAs it's nothing.
Again it mainly will depend on what IAF exaclty wants, cost-effectiveness, mainly A2G capabilities, or mainly A2G?

Unless the cost-effectivness, only the Rafale meets this requirements!

even my money is on rafile and MMRCA was supposed to compliment mirrage 2000 and more over india wanted mirages so i know Rafile is going to win and it comes with source code