Each MiG-35 to cost only $30 mil for the Russians. Is the IAF listening?

[he-man]

But again I am asking you, how come 350 figure?? Are you counting additional migs too?? Reality is now only 33-34 squadrons are active and other mig squadrons are just kept as reserve. And I am saying again that even in 2019-20 situation would be more or less same means 33-34 active squadrons.

fair enough but i am adding 80 lca over 4 years???
is that reasonable and possible according to u??considering that they will start series production in 2015??

@20 aircrafts per year??

But again I am asking you, how come 350 figure?? Are you counting additional migs too?? Reality is now only 33-34 squadrons are active and other mig squadrons are just kept as reserve. And I am saying again that even in 2019-20 situation would be more or less same means 33-34 active squadrons.

i think i forgot new mig-29 k's..............all right add 30-35 of those and figure comes to 100

 

[kaykay]

fair enough but i am adding 80 lca over 6 years???
is that reasonable and ossible according to u??considering that they will start series production in 2015??

@20 aircrafts per year??



i think i forgot new mig-29 k's..............all right add 30-35 of those and figure comes to 100

Well may be, may be not. Besides like we always do in that case, we'll further delay retirement of some relatively new 'Bisons' for 2-3 years till we get more LCAs or more rafales. And rest of Bisons as a reserve.

 

[PoKeMon]

let me play devil's advocate.
First of all we'll get 2 sqadrons of Rafale in 36 months after we sign the deal and 12-13/year after that. That makes atleast 60-72 Rafales by 2019-2020 if we seal the deal by next year. Secodly only 6-8 squadrons of mig-21 is in active service( around 150 aircrafts) and around further 100 are retired but in reserve(wiki have included them too). Again around 80 mig-27s are in active service. Now replace these 150+80 aircrafts with 100+60-72 mki+ rafales. I guess though number will shrink a bit but capabilities will be increased by many folds.

You are wrong.

We wont get 2 sqad in 36 months of signing the contract rather delivery of first Rafale will happen in 3 year time. India will start production of Rafale from 2018 onwards.

Anyways --

If we can manage 40 LCA Mk I, 40 Mk II and 20 Rafale that makes 100 odd fighters added with much more retired. Capability surge would be there with 40 super sukhois and 270 odd mark reached for MKIs.

That would make 260 odd MKI including super sukhois.
60 odd Mig 29.
40 LCA Mk I
40 LCA MK II
100 odd Jaguar
1-2 squad of Mig 27 still operational along with 1-2 squads of Mig 21 bisons

That comprises 600 fighters roughly means 30 + squads. Less in number but more lethal.

We can fill up the number with Mk II, more Rafales and FGFA thereon.

@20 aircrafts per year??

Yes, 20 aircraft per year would be the production rate.

We need to induct LCA quite quickly before production lines becomes busy with Rafale and FGFA from 2018 onwards.

 

[he-man]

You are wrong.

We wont get 2 sqad in 36 months of signing the contract rather delivery of first Rafale will happen in 3 year time. India will start production of Rafale from 2018 onwards.

Anyways --

If we can manage 40 LCA Mk I, 40 Mk II and 20 Rafale that makes 100 odd fighters added with much more retired. Capability surge would be there with 40 super sukhois and 270 odd mark reached for MKIs.

That would make 260 odd MKI including super sukhois.
60 odd Mig 29.
40 LCA Mk I
40 LCA MK II
100 odd Jaguar
1-2 squad of Mig 27 still operational along with 1-2 squads of Mig 21 bisons

That comprises 600 fighters roughly means 30 + squads. Less in number but more lethal.

We can fill up the number with Mk II, more Rafales and FGFA thereon.

i already pointed out he was wrong...............my analysis of post 117 stands

the point is can we have 80 lca in 4 years??

considering series production will start in 2015??

here lies the problem

read post 137

 

[PoKeMon]

i already pointed out he was wrong...............my analysis of post 117 stands

the point is can we have 80 lca in 4 years??

considering series production will start in 2015??

here lies the problem

read post 137

Production will start in early 2014.

From 2016 onwards Mk II will start coming.

Yes, 80 LCA by end of 2018 is what is expected.

 

[kaykay]

You are wrong.

We wont get 2 sqad in 36 months of signing the contract rather delivery of first Rafale will happen in 3 year time. India will start production of Rafale from 2018 onwards.

Anyways --

If we can manage 40 LCA Mk I, 40 Mk II and 20 Rafale that makes 100 odd fighters added with much more retired. Capability surge would be there with 40 super sukhois and 270 odd mark reached for MKIs.

That would make 260 odd MKI including super sukhois.
60 odd Mig 29.
40 LCA Mk I
40 LCA MK II
100 odd Jaguar
1-2 squad of Mig 27 still operational along with 1-2 squads of Mig 21 bisons

That comprises 600 fighters roughly means 30 + squads. Less in number but more lethal.

We can fill up the number with Mk II, more Rafales and FGFA thereon.



Yes, 20 aircraft per year would be the production rate.

We need to induct LCA quite quickly before production lines becomes busy with Rafale and FGFA from 2018 onwards.

Well I am saying the same that more or less but our squadron strength will be same as now even in 2019-20 i.e 600+ aircrafts but capability will be enhanced by many folds.

 

[he-man]

Production will start in early 2014.

From 2016 onwards Mk II will start coming.

Yes, 80 LCA by end of 2018 is what is expected.

Wrong...........production starts after foc is given and it will happen in 2014 end

I added 40 mk2 but without even seeing a prototype i wouldn't call my own assesment very objective

You are wrong.

We wont get 2 sqad in 36 months of signing the contract rather delivery of first Rafale will happen in 3 year time. India will start production of Rafale from 2018 onwards.

Anyways --

If we can manage 40 LCA Mk I, 40 Mk II and 20 Rafale that makes 100 odd fighters added with much more retired. Capability surge would be there with 40 super sukhois and 270 odd mark reached for MKIs.

That would make 260 odd MKI including super sukhois.
60 odd Mig 29.
40 LCA Mk I
40 LCA MK II
100 odd Jaguar
1-2 squad of Mig 27 still operational along with 1-2 squads of Mig 21 bisons

That comprises 600 fighters roughly means 30 + squads. Less in number but more lethal.

We can fill up the number with Mk II, more Rafales and FGFA thereon.



Yes, 20 aircraft per year would be the production rate.

We need to induct LCA quite quickly before production lines becomes busy with Rafale and FGFA from 2018 onwards.

the current production rate is not even 12 per year so we are actually hoping too much here

Well I am saying the same that more or less but our squadron strength will be same as now even in 2019-20 i.e 600+ aircrafts but capability will be enhanced by many folds.

yes capability will rise but ability to fight 2 front war will be reduced due to less no of aircraft

 

[kaykay]

By 2020.
36 Rafales.
270 MKIs
60 Mig-29.
50 Mirage 2k.
40-80 Tejas.
120-139 Jaguars. And Bisons in reserve.

 

[he-man]

By 2020.
36 Rafales.
270 MKIs
60 Mig-29.
50 Mirage 2k.
40-80 Tejas.
120-139 Jaguars. And Bisons in reserve.

Bisons will be fully retired

rest is correct

 

[kaykay]

Bisons will be fully retired

rest is correct

IAF always put some aircrafts in reserve if we shrink from 39 mark.

 

[he-man]

IAF always put some aircrafts in reserve if we shrink from 39 mark.

keeping mig-21 in reserve is not an option man,,,,,those machines have nothing left
Its better to retire them even earlier than 2019

As for squadron strength,,,,it all depends on HAL manufacturing rate of lca mk1 and 2 because if they cannot roduce these at a good rate then numbers fall further and currently there is no surety

 

[PoKeMon]

Wrong...........production starts after foc is given and it will happen in 2014 end

production actually starts with IOC 2 configuration and by mid 2014 we can expect 3-4 LCA rolled out. FOC will happen eventually.

I added 40 mk2 but without even seeing a prototype i wouldn't call my own assesment very objective

What prototype you want to see? Mk II is just few cm larger(to accomodate powerful engine GE414) with improved avionics.

the current production rate is not even 12 per year so we are actually hoping too much here

It is because it is required. Why should we have a rate of 20 when we are in prototype phase?

yes capability will rise but ability to fight 2 front war will be reduced due to less no of aircraft

I dont think so. Rather Rafale is inducted to help us fight with china. LCA coupled with Migs and MKI can take on PAF. Even 250-300 fighters at western border would do.

We need a team of Su 30 MKI with Rafale to take on PLAF. Another 300 would do in a defensive role. China would require 500+ of there best of the fighters to overcome IAF. Most of the PLAF fighters are 4th gen and they too cant leave their northern side open.

 

[he-man]

production actually starts with IOC 2 configuration and by mid 2014 we can expect 3-4 LCA rolled out. FOC will happen eventually.



What prototype you want to see? Mk II is just few cm larger(to accomodate powerful engine GE414) with improved avionics.



It is because it is required. Why should we have a rate of 20 when we are in prototype phase?



I dont think so. Rather Rafale is inducted to help us fight with china. LCA coupled with Migs and MKI can take on PAF. Even 250-300 fighters at western border would do.

We need a team of Su 30 MKI with Rafale to take on PLAF. Another 300 would do in a defensive role. China would require 500+ of there best of the fighters to overcome IAF. Most of the PLAF fighters are 4th gen and they too cant leave their northern side open.

No man ,,,,,,,,,not even IAF will agree with u on that

to fight a 2 sided war we need 40-45 squadrons,,,,,,and u are saying 30 would do??

1)We will talk when production series lca appears..............and when 10c-2 is given

2)Who knows the mk 2 details??It will have to undergo testing too and pls see HAL's tall and false claims in past

3)Chinese air force has

76 su-27
76 su-30mkk
23su-30mk2
200 j-10(air force)
20 j-10(navy)
24 j11-bh
35 jh7a

140 j-11a and b
180 j-8
389 j-7(will be phased out)
72 jh-7
240 q5(to be or already retired)


So we have nothing on chinese as we have only

172 mki
51 mirage 2000
60 mig-29

That could be considered 4 th gen at this moment alone

Considering their production rate is several times ours,,the gap will only increase

And i haven't even listed pakistan's inventory
So no we cannot fight 2 pronged war in 2020

 

[PoKeMon]

No man ,,,,,,,,,not even IAF will agree with u on that

to fight a 2 sided war we need 40-45 squadrons,,,,,,and u are saying 30 would do??

1)We will talk when production series lca appears..............and when 10c-2 is given

2)Who knows the mk 2 details??It will have to undergo testing too and pls see HAL's tall and false claims in past

3)Chinese air force has

76 su-27
76 su-30mkk
23su-30mk2
200 j-10(air force)
20 j-10(navy)
24 j11-bh
35 jh7a

140 j-11a and b
180 j-8
389 j-7(will be phased out)
72 jh-7
240 q5(to be or already retired)


So we have nothing on chinese as we have only

172 mki
51 mirage 2000
60 mig-29

That could be considered 4 th gen at this moment alone

Considering their production rate is several times ours,,the gap will only increase

And i haven't even listed pakistan's inventory
So no we cannot fight 2 pronged war in 2020

You think an airforce would say that they are ok with even 45 squads to fight all out war with both pakistan and china combined?

They wont be happy with 50 squads either. But I am discussing bare minimum not more than sufficient. If we go after neutralising both sino pak, we will get into an arm war not healthy with our economy.

When we talk about 2 front war we mean all out war with pakistan in offensive role and keeping china to a hold in defensive. A combination of 150 MKI + 40 Rafales and 100 other supporting A/C are good enough to prevent China intruding in our air space.

 

[he-man]

You think an airforce would say that they are ok with even 45 squads to fight all out war with both pakistan and china combined?

They wont be happy with 50 squads either. But I am discussing bare minimum not more than sufficient. If we go after neutralising both sino pak, we will get into an arm war not healthy with our economy.

When we talk about 2 front war we mean all out war with pakistan in offensive role and keeping china to a hold in defensive. A combination of 150 MKI + 40 Rafales and 100 other supporting A/C are good enough to prevent China intruding in our air space.

Yes for china alone its a good deterance but i am talking about post 2020 scenario of 2 pronged war and we need more numbers and be prepared for anything