Dr. Qadeer responsible for N-proliferation: Musharraf

[PakSher]

Stop blaming DR. Qadeer. Albert Einstine is responsible for all nuclear creation and proliferation. End of discussion.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

In the report I posted on Israeli Nuclear Program, the CIA in 68' estimated that Israel already had 10 to 20 Nuclear Bombs -- there was no need left to get a nuke from US by 71'.

The real help for the Israeli program came from France in the shape of the 25MW reactor and the fuel processing plant at Dimona. US turned a blind eye to free transfer of technology and know how from US scientist of Jewish origins and sympathetic to the establishment to the state of Israel.

I do not think that US supplied anyone with a complete nuclear device except for UK.

As far as Indian experience is concerned - I do not think that US was very much in favor of India up to and during the Nixon/Kissinger years. India was at that time squarely in the Soviet Block (without being part of it -- that is the smartness of the Indian politicians) and was creating an imbalance by rallying smaller countries to the nonaligned movement that the US believed was a front for a future quasi pro socialist block.

If there is a modern "Dai" of Indian Nuclear program, than we must look east towards the former Soviet Union. in case anyone question that the US supplied the initial training and the research reactor - this was also done with Pakistan through PINSTECH research reactor at Nilore and the subsequent training of our Nuclear Pioneers in US and Canada.

The Soviet connection through soft training of Indian scientist in their research institutes is one of the biggest reasons that Indian Nuclear technology lags behind that of Pakistan and the reason why there is very little heat on India on Nuclear Proliferation.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Aamir, Irfan---thanks for bringing some sanity to the discussion----.

U S doesnot have that kind of loving relation with anyone that it would give out a ready and packaged nuc to deliver to anyone---even if it is israel---. Why does america have to come to israel's rescue with a ready made nuc when it can invovle itself indirectly or directly into the conflict.

Now as for the israelis strike on syria---I have learnt that the strike was made from high altitude---possibly 25000 + feet----also I have learnt that it was not a bug in the S300 anti air missile computer system---but rather a newer, highly sophisicated jammers that the israelis used---this thing about a bug in the computer system--is it far fetched or a hype---only time will tell---but I can guarantee that the american latest jammers that israel ha---are highly highly sophisticated----They can do things that only CHOGY and Gambit can tell us---. I can stand corrected on the info I got.

Now, coming back to paksitan---the UAV----that little fat thing sitting at kandhahar air base---the pictures that came out---that was not a good thing for pakistan---that mean looking nasty thing had pakistan written all over it---I want my pak colleagues to understand---since Musharraf been gone---pak has been scanned with a fine toothcomb----.

Anyway---through chaos comes unpredictability----or through unpredictability come chaos---let us find ways to bring down the threat level instead of enhancing it--- let us have a check up from the neck up.

 

[anathema]

The Soviet connection through soft training of Indian scientist in their research institutes is one of the biggest reasons that Indian Nuclear technology lags behind that of Pakistan and the reason why there is very little heat on India on Nuclear Proliferation.

Aamir - Can you explain why soviet training implies that India lags behind Pakistan on nuclear technology ? Also i believe you are talking about the 50's and 60's era - is that relevant even now ?

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Aamir - Can you explain why soviet training implies that India lags behind Pakistan on nuclear technology ? Also i believe you are talking about the 50's and 60's era - is that relevant even now ?

My intention was not to imply that soviet technology was far behind or that they were incompetent. My position is simple -- when u start from scratch, it takes time to perfect the designs, dove tail the fabrication process to accommodate locally available or clandestinely imported materials the result is a long drawn out process of test and trial. However, in the process, the people developing the project get an exposure that is a building block for future progress.

Very few Pakistanis know and realize that India was also facing a lot of department and technology specific sanctions on not only particular research establishments but also individuals. They have also worked their way around this through the soviet union and supply of dual use technology and equipment from there.

Like Pakistanis, Indians were also barred from studying certain technologies/subject in US and western world along with the Soviets, Chicoms, and their client states. This was not restricted to Nuclear field but also certain aspects of metallurgy, astrophysics, telemetry, etc.

As far as present day is concerned you may be in a better position to shed some light on it.

However, both Indian and Pakistani scientists have come a long way in their progress towards self reliance. Pakistan played it smarter through compulsion or circumstances to not to invent the wheel. If you look at the progress of Pakistani Nuclear Program than you will notice a quantum jump in progress near the end of the seventies and early eighties (Dove tailing with the Soviet Invasion, Chinese concerns, and the US blind eye towards Pakistan’s' endeavor to produce a nuclear device -- it is not just the Israelis that seem to benefit from uncle Sam's near sightedness, at times). This policy of not inventing the wheel is reflected in all our conventional weapons programs as well.

On the other hand India tries to produce from scratch -- this takes time but in the end the core resource is better trained and the technology is understood to the nth degree.

The difference in the psyche of the two nations is quite evident here as well - overnight vs. slow and steady.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

On the other hand India tries to produce from scratch -- this takes time but in the end the core resource is better trained and the technology is understood to the nth degree.

The difference in the psyche of the two nations is quite evident here as well - overnight vs. slow and steady.

bravo and well said. these are the kind of posts that make me come back again and again to this forum

you have made me rethink about my belief that Israel only got the Nuclear bomb from USA. America only facilitated by turning a blind eye (like for Pakistan during cold war).

re Pakistan and Indian nuclear program I will agree that ours was superior because of the complaxity of the centrifuge process due to which the end product was far better in quality.
Pakistan was one for the very few who had that technology to enrich Uranium.

during 2003 the IAEA found the enriched Uranium contamination in one of the Iranian facilities and they were later traced back to the P-1 centrifuge that Pakistan had used initially & later on discarded. the blue prints and other material evidence collected pointed towards IQ Khan's shady organisation that was based in Dubai.

what more alarming and embarrising for any Pakistani is that that office in Dubai had Indian employees too in addtion to other freelancers of other natioanilites. that office was his main hub of operations.

The involvement of Indians in his black operations is most shocking. whether this was done under the full knowledge of Dr AQ Khan or not is irrelevent what will be interesting (or shocking) would be if our designs are found in Indian nuclear program.

 

[flameboard]

Oh yeah and Musharaf is the innocent little angel that everybody kept lying to. How could he have known the citizens he sold were not going on a field trip but instead were actually going to be locked up, tortured, raped and killed. Poor little Musharraf had no clue that the world was always lying to him... gimme a break

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

My friend M.B.Qasim:

Try to engage in a positive discussion and not respond like a child on what MastanKhan Sahib has written. Ignoring his remarks is like ignoring what history has taught us in just the recent past.

My friend some food for thought:

1. What is our long range AA missile cover? Old SA-2??? They will never be able to lift off their launch pads. Our AA cover is inadequate at best even today.
2. Before any escalation of hostilities, majority of western intelligence assets (both space and stratospheric based ) would be deployed to monitor round the clock movement of our Nuclear Assets -- to ensure advance knock out intelligence and capability
3. BLA and others in Balochistan would be utilized to house Special Forces assets and pre position them for knock out blows to strategic rail and road assets that will limit the wheeled asset deployment to pre-designated launch sites. Saddaam did try to do the hide and seek but except for a handful of Scuds all else failed. I am not taking into account pre-positioning of assets in India or offshore.
4. Severe jamming of all types of radars will be experienced thus rendering the AF to launch for only point defense missions in fair weather. They will be easy targets for F22's and their F15E's. This is all if the airbases survive the first knock out sorties by Nighthawks.
5. Navy - the less said the better.

My friend our armed forces are geared up to fight a regional fight (not more that 500 NM) and that too with India and that is also now in doubt. Our capability and capacity to fight even India in 2000 - 2001 was severely diminished as compared to today.

If terrorists can attack the GHQ and penetrate the inner cordon today after years of WoT than u can imagine what would have happened if dedicated and extremely planned interdiction strikes happened than. We are facing a tough fight in the mountains as our Army is basically an infantry centric army taught to fight set piece battles against similarly trained Indian cousins.

As far as the nuclear umbrella is concerned -- everyone also knows about it and the consequences of launching a nuclear strike (Except for us Pakistanis who have no clue as to what it would do for us in a reciprocal exchange) - so don't u think they would have already planned for it and executed some of those plans??? They are not like us.

Is pulling Israel and India into a conflict and fighting a nuclear war with them and US better than hunting Osama? The answer is obvious. And this was the choice Mushi made keeping in view our military capabilities, Pakistan’s economic capacity, our standing in the Muslim world (We are a pariah state even in the Muslim world than ) and the world as a whole, and the alternative to not doing it. We were not alone in ditching the Taliban, KSA and UAE quietly withdrew their support as well way before we did.

The only problem with Mushi plan was that he did not execute it fully, otherwise this WoT would have long finished or the quantum would have been minimal. I think if Mushi is to be blamed – he is to be blamed for not carrying out what he set out to do in the first place. I am also sure that our Pan Islamic lobby in our armed forces must have a hand in this- remember the 11K Pakistani’s plan and still counting?

Your plan at best is a flawed one and not well thought out. Need to revisit it in light of MastanKhan Sahib has written and the recent lessons from Iraq.

You have said that your plan/option is not from the Iraqi playbook. I was in US then and Saddam did address the American public using all the ploys you mentioned, he also offered to lower the oil prices and promised open supply of oil to US from Kuwaiti wells. Once these things did not pan out he promptly sucked in Israel and embossed “Allah O Akbar” on the Iraqi flag to play the Islamic card and started threatening Israel!!! He even launched couple of Scuds to garner popular Arab support. And all this to capture more oil wealth and thrash out his differences with his Arab brothers.

But than when some one asked Lee Quan Yu after his visit to Pakistan as to what advice did he give to the Pakistanis, he smiled and replied “What advise can you give to people whose lives start after death!” The problem is not Mushi, Osama, Bush etc. the problem is our behavior as responsible citizens of this world with a nuke in our pocket. We think having a nuke is just like having a glorified super bomb – it is not – it can help annihilate Pakistan and Pakistanis as a nation if we do not show maturity in our thoughts. It is an asset and at the same time a liability - it all depends upon how we behave.

I am at a loss to be honest... You are comparing a nuclear assault with a pathetic scud missile?

Can i just say one thing to you... Do you really think I m being emotional when I say Pakistan can stand its ground and America has no reason to attack Pakistan? and would not have attacked Pakistan if we had played our cards right...

Our failure is not about "we are no match for the Americans" everyone knows this... our failures are diplomatic... and the reason why we are failing on that front is our slave mentality... We are essentially bred to think inside the box like the Arabs of old times... In that time one Persian would easily slaughter 10 or 20 Arabs in battle... but once that inferior mentality of the Arabs changed it reversed... and although it took Muslims twenty years to effectively defeat Persia, it became one Arab killing 10 Persians in battle instead...

Get over this slave mentality... reality is one thing... being content with slavery another... We are not looking for a hopeless war with America... we are only talking about a way out of slavery... We have WMDs for heaven's sake... Saddam had none of those... You may not think that is a big thing but the enemies do take it very very seriously...

Anyway... I should admit I am not a military man myself... but I am going to ask someone who knows about these things... A layman answer is no good because all I can offer is mutual annihilation if thats what the enemy wants... (America still escapes unharmed... unless of course mumble mumble cough cough )

..........

Just to let you know... The Caliphate will create (deliberately or otherwise) a domino effect and the current nationalist regimes in the Muslim world will come crumbling down one by one)...

..........

It is going way off topic perhaps... but why is there a BLA in existence still? Should nt Pak Army be working on its total annihilation?

Or maybe offer them a job in our military itself... ??

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Oh yeah and Musharaf is the innocent little angel that everybody kept lying to. How could he have known the citizens he sold were not going on a field trip but instead were actually going to be locked up, tortured, raped and killed. Poor little Musharraf had no clue that the world was always lying to him... gimme a break

Musharaf is a scumbag... but AQ is no angel either... However... AQ helped our nuke project... What did Musharaf do?

Ah yes... the economy... duh

 

[MastanKhan]

Can i just say one thing to you... Do you really think I m being emotional when I say Pakistan can stand its ground and America has no reason to attack Pakistan? and would not have attacked Pakistan if we had played our cards right...

Our failure is not about "we are no match for the Americans" everyone knows this... our failures are diplomatic... and the reason why we are failing on that front is our slave mentality... We are essentially bred to think inside the box like the Arabs of old times... In that time one Persian would easily slaughter 10 or 20 Arabs in battle... but once that inferior mentality of the Arabs changed it reversed... and although it took Muslims twenty years to effectively defeat Persia, it became one Arab killing 10 Persians in battle instead...

Get over this slave mentality... reality is one thing... being content with slavery another... We are not looking for a hopeless war with America... we are only talking about a way out of slavery... We have WMDs for heaven's sake... Saddam had none of those... You may not think that is a big thing but the enemies do take it very very seriously...

Anyway... I should admit I am not a military man myself... but I am going to ask someone who knows about these things... A layman answer is no good because all I can offer is mutual annihilation if thats what the enemy wants... (America still escapes unharmed... unless of course mumble mumble cough cough )

..........


Hi,

Let me jump in and answer some of it----the issue is not of a diplomatic failure as much as it is of a character failure---.

And buddy----get over this word " Slave mentality"---it is a useless idiom often used by pakistanis when they have no sense of any answer left---when all their belifs are crumbling before their eyes---.

If such is your talent that you have to ask a millitary man to get your answers----then please excuse us of your indulgence----if such is your calibre and knowledge---that you believe that a millitary man ( pakistani millitary---no disrespect meant---exception are acceptable )may know better---then you are way over your head in this discussion---.

Kid you don't get it by now---all of paks nucs are targetted and neutralized---and remember---barking dog's seldom bite---it is a sign of impotency and weakness---. Has israel ever threatened anyone openly and continuously---never---they do it to you first and then make you whimper licking your wounds---.

This your chance to learn---that army guy won't tell you nothing---that poor soul has never had the exposure that Aamir Hussein has.


To---others----I just posted some unique information about syrian strike---did't even register on you---. That computer bug was supposedly a fake.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

To---others----I just posted some unique information about syrian strike---did't even register on you---. That computer bug was supposedly a fake.

it very much registered. specially your mention of the global hawk systems flying from Afghanistan over Pakistan re its nuclear installations is a very scarey prospect.

Israel's recent cyber attack on Iranian nuclear installations had a profound effect which pretty much affected them. who knows what they must have been doing or already done with an Islamic nuclear state.

 

[BATMAN]

all of paks nucs are targetted and neutralized---

With Musharraf gone Pakistan has been set back to 30 years back.
I hold Iftikhar ch. the culprit, including his team.

 

[Saleem]

I just fail to under stand how people can deify individuals - Musharraf, AQ Khan etc. they are humans with faults and (maybe) some qualities.

One needs to support, and oppose, individual actions and not individuals.

 

[nightcrawler]

bravo and well said. these are the kind of posts that make me come back again and again to this forum

you have made me rethink about my belief that Israel only got the Nuclear bomb from USA. America only facilitated by turning a blind eye (like for Pakistan during cold war).

re Pakistan and Indian nuclear program I will agree that ours was superior because of the complaxity of the centrifuge process due to which the end product was far better in quality.
Pakistan was one for the very few who had that technology to enrich Uranium.

during 2003 the IAEA found the enriched Uranium contamination in one of the Iranian facilities and they were later traced back to the P-1 centrifuge that Pakistan had used initially & later on discarded. the blue prints and other material evidence collected pointed towards IQ Khan's shady organisation that was based in Dubai.

what more alarming and embarrising for any Pakistani is that that office in Dubai had Indian employees too in addtion to other freelancers of other natioanilites. that office was his main hub of operations.

The involvement of Indians in his black operations is most shocking. whether this was done under the full knowledge of Dr AQ Khan or not is irrelevent what will be interesting (or shocking) would be if our designs are found in Indian nuclear program.

Plz someone provide some adequate nonWestern proved of this Dubai hype. I haven't seen any Dubai office nor did any of our media members has shown some links here; your claims are based on only upon a documentary featured some Indian lunatic bollywood actor as AQK; that was all propaganda....Had their been some office some financial transactions must have been come out to media; why they are not. Senior members here do are making mountain out of a mole hill!!

 

[MastanKhan]

it very much registered. specially your mention of the global hawk systems flying from Afghanistan over Pakistan re its nuclear installations is a very scarey prospect.

Israel's recent cyber attack on Iranian nuclear installations had a profound effect which pretty much affected them. who knows what they must have been doing or already done with an Islamic nuclear state.

Irfan

We are talking here about such a sophisticated jamming equipment---that it does not register even as a needle point on the radar---basically you will hear the enemy plane in the air in broad daylight flying at a high altitude---maybe see a little speck but the ground radar be sleeping.

The traditional saying amongst the opponents is that you fear the american technology that you have not seen or heard about.

Since Musharraf left---the game has changed---the security and restraint that america felt with Musharraf in power is not there any more---. The americans went on a full time scanning of pakistani landscape, places of special interest and electrnoic sensors and sniffers for nuc warheads---.

Irfan---the children on this board have no clue what they are facing---and when they get cornered---they threaten with nucs---. I truly feel sad for them---they are so helpless that they don't even know about it---but only if they acknowledged and accepted their shortcomings---they would be surprised to find that---that is where their salvation lies---. Till that moment of enlightenment---I am just banging my head aganist the walls.