Dr. Qadeer responsible for N-proliferation: Musharraf

[Waffen_SS]

Hi,

A possible link of India's Gas Centrifuge Program and Procurements from the A Q Khan Network

http://isis-online.org/uploads/isis-reports/documents/indianprocurement.pdf

This link was also mentioned by Mr. Munir Ahmad Khan, Chairman of PAEC 1972-91 in an article entitled "India's Nuclear Strengths and Weaknesses" in 1998. He wrote that India's centrifuge design appears to be similar to the Pakistani design, which is a strange coincidence.

 

[paritosh]

My intention was not to imply that soviet technology was far behind or that they were incompetent. My position is simple -- when u start from scratch, it takes time to perfect the designs, dove tail the fabrication process to accommodate locally available or clandestinely imported materials the result is a long drawn out process of test and trial. However, in the process, the people developing the project get an exposure that is a building block for future progress.

Very few Pakistanis know and realize that India was also facing a lot of department and technology specific sanctions on not only particular research establishments but also individuals. They have also worked their way around this through the soviet union and supply of dual use technology and equipment from there.

Like Pakistanis, Indians were also barred from studying certain technologies/subject in US and western world along with the Soviets, Chicoms, and their client states. This was not restricted to Nuclear field but also certain aspects of metallurgy, astrophysics, telemetry, etc.

As far as present day is concerned you may be in a better position to shed some light on it.

However, both Indian and Pakistani scientists have come a long way in their progress towards self reliance. Pakistan played it smarter through compulsion or circumstances to not to invent the wheel. If you look at the progress of Pakistani Nuclear Program than you will notice a quantum jump in progress near the end of the seventies and early eighties (Dove tailing with the Soviet Invasion, Chinese concerns, and the US blind eye towards Pakistan’s' endeavor to produce a nuclear device -- it is not just the Israelis that seem to benefit from uncle Sam's near sightedness, at times). This policy of not inventing the wheel is reflected in all our conventional weapons programs as well.

On the other hand India tries to produce from scratch -- this takes time but in the end the core resource is better trained and the technology is understood to the nth degree.

The difference in the psyche of the two nations is quite evident here as well - overnight vs. slow and steady.

nicely said.
When we lacked uranium and had no providers...we researched thorium fast-breeder tech and manufactured the world's first fast-breeder reactor in kalpakkam...there was Soviet support but the research and paperwork was Indian...Indian and Pakistani scientists severely lack practical skills as far as nuke tech is concerned...
when the whole world was going up in radioactive flames testing and perfecting their nuke bombs...we were watching....now we can't perfect ours...
Our skills in manufacturing safe nuke reactors are limited...
however the recent manufacture of a miniature reactor to be fit aboard the arihant is indeed a an achievement...

 

[thinkingcap81]

MastanKhan, Aamir Hussain and Irfan Baloch sirs --- fantastic discussions.

I know very little of the material being discussed and came to know a lot. Even if a lot of it is not on record and some of it may be speculative (no insult intended) yet the stuff seems pretty believable.

And MastanKhan, i suppose that you are being too negative about Pakistan. 99.99% chances of no war of the kind you dread --- and times will change --- Pakistan will become either irrelevant or relevant depending on the path chosen. As an Indian i keep thinking about what the China factor will be in the coming decades.

 

[MastanKhan]

QUOTE=thinkingcap81;1274696]MastanKhan, Aamir Hussain and Irfan Baloch sirs --- fantastic discussions.

I know very little of the material being discussed and came to know a lot. Even if a lot of it is not on record and some of it may be speculative (no insult intended) yet the stuff seems pretty believable.

And MastanKhan, i suppose that you are being too negative about Pakistan. 99.99% chances of no war of the kind you dread --- and times will change --- Pakistan will become either irrelevant or relevant depending on the path chosen. As an Indian i keep thinking about what the China factor will be in the coming decades.[/QUOTE]

Hi,

Thanks for your comments---Aamir and Irfan have put some serious thoughts in their posts---.

If you can elucidiate a bit on that 99.99% comments---I can give an educated answer.

 

[thinkingcap81]

If you can elucidiate a bit on that 99.99% comments---I can give an educated answer.

Not sure if i should be posting here and hijacking what is a very Pakistan-centric topic, but my thoughts none the less.

US will not attack Pakistan given the current situation which i am assuming will be quite the same in the coming few years. US and its allies (NATO and non-NATO) cannot really justify any assault on Pakistan. A very frustrating time for the US and the rest of the world.

After the endgame in Afghanistan US might want to extract revenge but how much capacity will be there given increasing Chinese influence. Given current trends China will begin to challenge the present world order in this decade and will on its own be enough to counterbalance the West beyond 2030 at least economically.

However what the future Chinese attitude towards Pakistan will be is not etched in stone. Israel is the darling of the US precisely because of Israel's inner strength though the same cannot be said of Pakistan given current attitudes. Therein lies the long-term cost-benefit analysis for China and India will have to be on her toes for the conceivable future.

Now closer in time, what will be the repercussions of another major terrorist attack on India? I don't know. What will the US do? Supply manpower --- directly and indirectly? Unlikely. Encourage and give the green signal to India to attack? What will be to fallout on India --- domestic and international? What price for victory --- and i am not talking of any nuclear exchange, just conventional war. This is where i say 99.99% unlikely unless the US still wields enormous influence on Pakistan's domestic affairs.

Of course one may aver that the fact that there has been enough terrorist related silence from state/non-state actors towards India speaks volumes of the constraining capacity of the US on Pakistan. How much of this be extrapolated? One also does not really know if the long-term Pakistani policy towards India has changed and vice-versa.

I also think about the commonality that the Indian subcontinent has on the whole. Israel is special because the Jews already had it going for them --- they were very educated and advanced. No surprise that that given their history and new home post WW2 they would be towering above all else in that region of the world. Same cannot be said of India. Hence it is my belief that as the region scales new highs Pakistan will follow suit.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

With Musharraf gone Pakistan has been set back to 30 years back.
I hold Iftikhar ch. the culprit, including his team.

IMHO and maybe if I am right history will prove that it was not Ch. Iftikhar but a Saudi/Ex Ameerul Momineen/Caliphate plan to over throw the government after Lal Masjid. Ch. Iftikhar was just a catalyst and an event that triggered it.

Ch. Sahib is as human as any one of us -- he has lot of skeletons in the closet--as we all do -- he did not have the guts to stand firm unless there was some definite plan and finances backing up his play.

But than it is my opinion and can be flawed.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

bravo and well said. these are the kind of posts that make me come back again and again to this forum

you have made me rethink about my belief that Israel only got the Nuclear bomb from USA. America only facilitated by turning a blind eye (like for Pakistan during cold war).

re Pakistan and Indian nuclear program I will agree that ours was superior because of the complaxity of the centrifuge process due to which the end product was far better in quality.
Pakistan was one for the very few who had that technology to enrich Uranium.

during 2003 the IAEA found the enriched Uranium contamination in one of the Iranian facilities and they were later traced back to the P-1 centrifuge that Pakistan had used initially & later on discarded. the blue prints and other material evidence collected pointed towards IQ Khan's shady organisation that was based in Dubai.

what more alarming and embarrising for any Pakistani is that that office in Dubai had Indian employees too in addtion to other freelancers of other natioanilites. that office was his main hub of operations.

The involvement of Indians in his black operations is most shocking. whether this was done under the full knowledge of Dr AQ Khan or not is irrelevent what will be interesting (or shocking) would be if our designs are found in Indian nuclear program.

Baloch Sahib:

posting a link of a youtube report on Dimona Plant:
YouTube - YouTube - Israel_s Dimona Nuclear Weapons Factory In 3D.avi

Interesting video.

 

[BATMAN]

IMHO and maybe if I am right history will prove that it was not Ch. Iftikhar but a Saudi/Ex Ameerul Momineen/Caliphate plan to over throw the government after Lal Masjid. Ch. Iftikhar was just a catalyst and an event that triggered it.

Ch. Sahib is as human as any one of us -- he has lot of skeletons in the closet--as we all do -- he did not have the guts to stand firm unless there was some definite plan and finances backing up his play.

But than it is my opinion and can be flawed.

Do you know how much assistance was granted to Asma Jehangir, Munir A Malik and Aitizaz Ahsan by western organisations?
How many awards were offered to Iftikhar ch.

I recently watched an interview of Munir A Malik on ARY, where he was presented with documentary proof that he received 350million$ via an international bank...but reluctantly he stated 'he only received roughly 30-35 million$'.

first person released by Iftikhar ch. upon assuming power was Mullah burqa of lal Mosque, while whole Pakistan knows he was apprehended form crime scene.

Zardari's election as President of Pakistan is open violation of Pakistani law but Iftikhar ch. has his eyes closed.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Guys like MB Qasim can, today, comment on history with 20 20 hindsight and not take into account the sentiments of the American public and the neo con stance of the US Govt.of Mr. Bush.

Just to highlights certain issues the effected the outcome of the decisions of Pak Govt. during days after 9/11:

1. The fact that Pakistan was a Pariah State
2. Under triple layer of sanctions
3. Saudi Arabia being neutralized as an actor that could soften US stand and was it self involved in trying to save their own skin after 9/11 as many of the persons involved were their own nationals.
4. China was itself putting pressure on Pakistan to get rid of militants who were creating an insurgency situation in their Muslim majority Xinkiang province and was extremely angry with ISI on harboring some of the militant inside Pakistan.
5. India was extremely vocal and forthcoming in offering their services to teach Pakistan a lesson. As aptly put by a senior American official in their Karachi Consulate "India was gyrating its hips to get the Americans to get their dirty job done by them."
6. Iran already had a problem with the Taliban and was at logger heads with Pakistan over it. In fact was building a strong joint front with India against Pakistan in the region.
7. US fully knew the depth our engagement with Taliban during the the time when we touted them in front of Unocal and the State Department as the only solution.
8. The fact that the Saudis clearly distanced themselves from Talibn and their regime quickly. Osama was already a headache for them and it was a heaven sent opportunity to get rid of him.
9. We had less than one month of strategic fuel stocks.

In the above noted on ground facts, based upon the same 20:20 hindsight, if proclaiming ourselves as the Caliphate would have changed anything -- it is a suicide wish and nothing else. Basing the survival of your country on the reactions of the common Arab in the streets of Cairo, Amman, and Baghdad would have been lunacy for any leader, let alone Musharraf (sans Saddam;-))

My friend you need to face ground realities and come down to earth and fly at a breathable 20,000 feet.

Dreaming of a Muslim leader on a white horse wielding a sword and leading his nation to doom is a dream of a child. I saw this dream in reality in 91' in the streets of Regal Chowk in Karachi with the Muslim leader being Mr. Saddam in the posters being sold in our streets.

What a modern Muslim nation needs is real economic freedom, concentration on education, justice, health, and investment in its people and true democracy -- military strength will automatically follow.

The slave like mentality that you have been so eagerly touting around is the very stuff you talk about. What does a slave dream of -- freedom, revolution, revenge?. Free people think about using the system to their advantage and prosper in it.

If you really want to know where we are being taken to by those from within us -- read in detail the history of events leading up to the Crusades in Europe. you will find surprising similarities in what is being asked from us today as Muslim by Muslims.

Some of our misguided brothers are carrying out suicide attacks within this country -- your recipe is for a global suicide attack -- with high probability of the bomber being killed in the first half hour of wearing the suicide vest!!! I might sound quite dramatic here but your plan is quite .....

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Do you know how much assistance was granted to Asma Jehangir, Munir A Malik and Aitizaz Ahsan by western organisations?
How many awards were offered to Iftikhar ch.

I recently watched an interview of Munir A Malik on ARY, where he was presented with documentary proof that he received 350million$ via an international bank...but reluctantly he stated 'he only received roughly 30-35 million$'.

first person released by Iftikhar ch. upon assuming power was Mullah burqa of lal Mosque, while whole Pakistan knows he was apprehended form crime scene.

Zardari's election as President of Pakistan is open violation of Pakistani law but Iftikhar ch. has his eyes closed.

I am still wondering my friend. But I have one suggestion, the equation is a lot more complex and we should not only look at CIA but also the role of the Saudi intelligence in what is happening here in our neck of woods.

Good point though -- who was behind all of this hmmmm?????

 

[MastanKhan]

www.governmentconspiracy.net/2010/04/​government...


Hi,

Learning about new and old things is an ever going process---so, the more the things change, the more they stay the same.

We have a neighbour iran---iran used to have a democratically elected govt in the early 50's---that govt was taken down----the conspiracy is known as the Ajax conspiracy or operation Ajax.

The people used in these two circumstance---ie----iran and pakistan----are identical---the game plan execution is the same----the players look no different---.

So---please click on the above mentioned web site and read---or just simply type in ajax conspiracy in your search engine----and be prepared to be enlightened.

 

[MastanKhan]

Not sure if i should be posting here and hijacking what is a very Pakistan-centric topic, but my thoughts none the less.

US will not attack Pakistan given the current situation which i am assuming will be quite the same in the coming few years. US and its allies (NATO and non-NATO) cannot really justify any assault on Pakistan. A very frustrating time for the US and the rest of the world.


Hi,

In 2001 the message was delieverd through Armitage---to be or not to be---. Now again in the year 2010---after 9 years----why is this man making a statement--- " if there is another mumbai style attack---india will be encouraged to attack pakistan "---. Yes---it is Richard Armitage making this statement a few days ago---.

The timing of the statement and the person behind the statement is extremely concerning and worrisome. Basically---america is giving india a carte blanche to strike pakistan if it gets under duress.

Where america already knows that pak would strike back with what it has right away---but then it is still urging india to go ahead----which means that paks major weaponery is already neutralized by what the americans have in their minds---. Otherwise---they would never urge india to strike.

They were always asking india to use restraints in the past----but not now---The beast of Kandhar was not for afghanistan----america would never waste such sophisticated and highly secret technology for AFG---but only and only for pakistan---.

The exposure of this UAV at kandhar was also not accidental----but it was intentional---it was made to convey a message to pakistan---you time is up---we got what we wanted.

The relationship between pakistan and america has become unpredictable leaning 70--30 against pakistan. When situation is this bad---then things can deteriorate at a lightening fast speed under the guise of a major untoward incidence---where pakistan is busy fighting its own demons---.

Bottomline----the statement from Armitage was extremely disconcerting.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Can i just say one thing to you... Do you really think I m being emotional when I say Pakistan can stand its ground and America has no reason to attack Pakistan? and would not have attacked Pakistan if we had played our cards right...

Our failure is not about "we are no match for the Americans" everyone knows this... our failures are diplomatic... and the reason why we are failing on that front is our slave mentality... We are essentially bred to think inside the box like the Arabs of old times... In that time one Persian would easily slaughter 10 or 20 Arabs in battle... but once that inferior mentality of the Arabs changed it reversed... and although it took Muslims twenty years to effectively defeat Persia, it became one Arab killing 10 Persians in battle instead...

Get over this slave mentality... reality is one thing... being content with slavery another... We are not looking for a hopeless war with America... we are only talking about a way out of slavery... We have WMDs for heaven's sake... Saddam had none of those... You may not think that is a big thing but the enemies do take it very very seriously...

Anyway... I should admit I am not a military man myself... but I am going to ask someone who knows about these things... A layman answer is no good because all I can offer is mutual annihilation if thats what the enemy wants... (America still escapes unharmed... unless of course mumble mumble cough cough )

..........


Hi,

Let me jump in and answer some of it----the issue is not of a diplomatic failure as much as it is of a character failure---.

And buddy----get over this word " Slave mentality"---it is a useless idiom often used by pakistanis when they have no sense of any answer left---when all their belifs are crumbling before their eyes---.

If such is your talent that you have to ask a millitary man to get your answers----then please excuse us of your indulgence----if such is your calibre and knowledge---that you believe that a millitary man ( pakistani millitary---no disrespect meant---exception are acceptable )may know better---then you are way over your head in this discussion---.

Kid you don't get it by now---all of paks nucs are targetted and neutralized---and remember---barking dog's seldom bite---it is a sign of impotency and weakness---. Has israel ever threatened anyone openly and continuously---never---they do it to you first and then make you whimper licking your wounds---.

This your chance to learn---that army guy won't tell you nothing---that poor soul has never had the exposure that Aamir Hussein has.


To---others----I just posted some unique information about syrian strike---did't even register on you---. That computer bug was supposedly a fake.

heh... Kid

and what exposure does Aamir has? and why should we pay any attention to you rather than a military man who would know about military options that Pakistan has to be able to survive?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Guys like MB Qasim can, today, comment on history with 20 20 hindsight and not take into account the sentiments of the American public and the neo con stance of the US Govt.of Mr. Bush.

Just to highlights certain issues the effected the outcome of the decisions of Pak Govt. during days after 9/11:

1. The fact that Pakistan was a Pariah State
2. Under triple layer of sanctions
3. Saudi Arabia being neutralized as an actor that could soften US stand and was it self involved in trying to save their own skin after 9/11 as many of the persons involved were their own nationals.
4. China was itself putting pressure on Pakistan to get rid of militants who were creating an insurgency situation in their Muslim majority Xinkiang province and was extremely angry with ISI on harboring some of the militant inside Pakistan.
5. India was extremely vocal and forthcoming in offering their services to teach Pakistan a lesson. As aptly put by a senior American official in their Karachi Consulate "India was gyrating its hips to get the Americans to get their dirty job done by them."
6. Iran already had a problem with the Taliban and was at logger heads with Pakistan over it. In fact was building a strong joint front with India against Pakistan in the region.
7. US fully knew the depth our engagement with Taliban during the the time when we touted them in front of Unocal and the State Department as the only solution.
8. The fact that the Saudis clearly distanced themselves from Talibn and their regime quickly. Osama was already a headache for them and it was a heaven sent opportunity to get rid of him.
9. We had less than one month of strategic fuel stocks.

In the above noted on ground facts, based upon the same 20:20 hindsight, if proclaiming ourselves as the Caliphate would have changed anything -- it is a suicide wish and nothing else. Basing the survival of your country on the reactions of the common Arab in the streets of Cairo, Amman, and Baghdad would have been lunacy for any leader, let alone Musharraf (sans Saddam;-))

My friend you need to face ground realities and come down to earth and fly at a breathable 20,000 feet.

Dreaming of a Muslim leader on a white horse wielding a sword and leading his nation to doom is a dream of a child. I saw this dream in reality in 91' in the streets of Regal Chowk in Karachi with the Muslim leader being Mr. Saddam in the posters being sold in our streets.

What a modern Muslim nation needs is real economic freedom, concentration on education, justice, health, and investment in its people and true democracy -- military strength will automatically follow.

The slave like mentality that you have been so eagerly touting around is the very stuff you talk about. What does a slave dream of -- freedom, revolution, revenge?. Free people think about using the system to their advantage and prosper in it.

If you really want to know where we are being taken to by those from within us -- read in detail the history of events leading up to the Crusades in Europe. you will find surprising similarities in what is being asked from us today as Muslim by Muslims.

Some of our misguided brothers are carrying out suicide attacks within this country -- your recipe is for a global suicide attack -- with high probability of the bomber being killed in the first half hour of wearing the suicide vest!!! I might sound quite dramatic here but your plan is quite .....

Guys like MBQ? Stop talking in third person... It is taken as a sign of disrespect when talking to someone...

You write a lot... I want you to tell me just one thing... Do you see a difference between a scud missile and a nuclear weapon?

If you dont... I m not continuing this discussion...

If you do... Thank you for taking my point...

 

[nightcrawler]

In addition to the documentary posted earlier upon 3d animated Nuke building of Israel; this is the full movie entailing Vannunu in original!!

Free File Hosting Made Simple - MediaFire (5parts)

US assistance to Israel is quiet clear; no doubt about it that they had helped US & in return they must get something ....

By the way I still am looking towards the Dubai AQK group & more disturbing that AQK led that group total bullocks....