Khajur
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Not just in kashmir or its neighbouring country pakistan...i have to say ,its a typical practice followed in all conflict zones worldwide.
Doubtful video showing Army 'abusing' in Swat
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Not just in kashmir or its neighbouring country pakistan...i have to say ,its a typical practice followed in all conflict zones worldwide.
SSGPA1
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Thanks for the info Blain2. I hope Mr. Qasmi and Jang will give high light the action of PA in this regard.
SSGPA1
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Pls ignore above posty as I was able to see the apology note posted in Jang.
TaimiKhan
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Guys, let me just give a single example to let you judge yourself what kind of people we are fighting. This was told by someone who is directly involved in the Swat operation. During interrogations many of the hardcore militant commanders & foot soldiers were asked that if their superiors ask them to slaughter their parents & family, will they do it, the reply came YES. You judge yourself about them now. The recently nabbed & then killed due to injuries sustained, swat taliban leader, their beheading squad leader & specialist Sher Alam "Qasab, meaning the buthcer" had involved all his grown up sons in this war who got killed too. These are ruthless men who have no regard for human life.
Secondly, the major portion of foot soldiers & command structure of the taliban in Swat are old age cadre, reason being the roots to this insurgency had been laid decades before with the creation of TNSM, if you have seen their elder leaders on TV & the photos of commanders having head money, all of them are nearly 40+ or above. You will rarely see young aged commanders in them in contrast to the TTP taliban where mostly young commanders are seen.
Thirdly, the system of nabbing suspects is not random nor like wrong person at the wrong place & time. Army has now a human intelligence system in place, they get leads from the already captured militants, then leads come from these arrested militants to other ones, just like a tree structure one nod of leave leading to another & another. The people coming back have provided a lot of useful information to the army & army has got many times success due to them. Plus there is an initial screening process, people who pass it are let go, those who don't are then given the warm welcome seen in the video. The army has now such an effective human intelligence system that they now go to the door steps of the militant & nab him from his home.
You can see the local police in the video, meaning this is most probably a police station, if these suspects had nothing to do with the taliban, the police would have known about them being native to the area & these elderly suspects wouldn't be here taking such warm welcome.
And as for courts, this is no murder case, where you have scientific evidence or witnesses to prove you guilty. This is a war zone, army needs information on quick footing to do action & safe peoples & its own soldiers life & nab the culprits before they escape.
Can assure you that army is doing no atrocities & it makes sure that the nabbed person have multiple witnesses to prove his involvement or self guilty statement. Due to this effective human intelligence operation you can see dozens of militants coming forward to give-up themselves instead of being nabbed later & then given such cool treatments.
The hue & cry of atrocities alleged by HRCP is based on the testimony of the relatives of the captured militants who have been found killed either by their own comrades or by revenge killings. We all know who runs the HRCP & what their record in serving Pakistan is.
Will try to dig more information about this incident.
Secondly, the major portion of foot soldiers & command structure of the taliban in Swat are old age cadre, reason being the roots to this insurgency had been laid decades before with the creation of TNSM, if you have seen their elder leaders on TV & the photos of commanders having head money, all of them are nearly 40+ or above. You will rarely see young aged commanders in them in contrast to the TTP taliban where mostly young commanders are seen.
Thirdly, the system of nabbing suspects is not random nor like wrong person at the wrong place & time. Army has now a human intelligence system in place, they get leads from the already captured militants, then leads come from these arrested militants to other ones, just like a tree structure one nod of leave leading to another & another. The people coming back have provided a lot of useful information to the army & army has got many times success due to them. Plus there is an initial screening process, people who pass it are let go, those who don't are then given the warm welcome seen in the video. The army has now such an effective human intelligence system that they now go to the door steps of the militant & nab him from his home.
You can see the local police in the video, meaning this is most probably a police station, if these suspects had nothing to do with the taliban, the police would have known about them being native to the area & these elderly suspects wouldn't be here taking such warm welcome.
And as for courts, this is no murder case, where you have scientific evidence or witnesses to prove you guilty. This is a war zone, army needs information on quick footing to do action & safe peoples & its own soldiers life & nab the culprits before they escape.
Can assure you that army is doing no atrocities & it makes sure that the nabbed person have multiple witnesses to prove his involvement or self guilty statement. Due to this effective human intelligence operation you can see dozens of militants coming forward to give-up themselves instead of being nabbed later & then given such cool treatments.
The hue & cry of atrocities alleged by HRCP is based on the testimony of the relatives of the captured militants who have been found killed either by their own comrades or by revenge killings. We all know who runs the HRCP & what their record in serving Pakistan is.
Will try to dig more information about this incident.
Awesome
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I've not seen the video, just pics.
I'm of the view that if Pakistan really hopes to enter the world stage as a developed, progressive nation, then it WILL need to put an end to such practices of violent third degree interrogation.
In any sane court of law, this guys testimony should be ignored as this is clearly coerced even if he/she is damn guilty on the face of things. You need to be sensible, you need to do your police work (investigations, forensic work, psychological profiling, lie detectors, piercing questions, truth serums) better and not resort to violent behavior.
The police makes mistakes. ONE mistake of this violent kind would be enough. I think this is good for Pakistan in the long run that this video came out. We can only make a positive change to things we KNOW are wrong. Just because they may be Taliban is not a good excuse. We must impress upon the government that we do not want to become the monster we set out to kill in the first place.
I'm of the view that if Pakistan really hopes to enter the world stage as a developed, progressive nation, then it WILL need to put an end to such practices of violent third degree interrogation.
In any sane court of law, this guys testimony should be ignored as this is clearly coerced even if he/she is damn guilty on the face of things. You need to be sensible, you need to do your police work (investigations, forensic work, psychological profiling, lie detectors, piercing questions, truth serums) better and not resort to violent behavior.
The police makes mistakes. ONE mistake of this violent kind would be enough. I think this is good for Pakistan in the long run that this video came out. We can only make a positive change to things we KNOW are wrong. Just because they may be Taliban is not a good excuse. We must impress upon the government that we do not want to become the monster we set out to kill in the first place.
HAIDER
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ahhhh so here it comes, Afghans have started uploading this video under title of
cruelty of Pakistan Army and innocent pashtuns
Login | Facebook
Log In to Face book then this link will work
See these stupids knew that they are 'innocent'
The person Who uploaded this video is a serious Anti Pak, She Lives in Pak, don't even have guts to return to her country but still they live here, eat here, getting education from Pak, survived coz of Pak & still they Abuse Pak
These Retards & Human right Activists will use this video to extract the maximum advantage
Don't worry more then half of Afghan population use to be refugee in Pakistan. What you can expect from losers, who left their country when it was burning. But still Afghan has no choice,they have to listen Pakistani pashtun, because Pakistani pushtun is only educated class to command and control Afghanistan.
Plus these Taliban are lucky, because most of officer stationed in trouble area are not pashtuns, otherwise, these guys must be hanging naked upside down.
1) Fear - Armed gangs of 2-300 criminals roaming the country side, when they come to recruit from locals or good madras sahs, the people dont have a choice, you join or you die
2) Intimidation - Preventing you from carrying out your ordinary life so you either keep to yourself and dont become a kabba mein haddy or better yet for them - they make you join them.
3) Threats - If you dont do this or that, your brother, sister etc. will end up .........
4) Luring by money etc. - young teenagers, or jobless youth, are attracted for the money they hand out, which has originated from these criminals foreign sponsors.
5) Incentives - When you are an ordinary village man and are offered first by deceit, a 4 by 4, hard cash, other stuff, you dont bother to ask Why?, it is later on, that they. misuse you.
6) A stable fat salary. - Recent captured criminal leaders revealed how they were paid from 1,50,000 to 5,00,000 per month by these barbarians.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for enlightening me but i have not been passed through such experiences and offers and YES also punjabi taliban.
My point was that the parents or relative should not be made accountable are humiliated who have opposed and tried to stop their kids or relative to join taliban.
There are many reasons of spread of talibanization, ranging from domestic failed justice system to failed democracy,international injustice i.e palestine, kashmir, iraq and afghan war to domestic socio-economic problems.
2) Intimidation - Preventing you from carrying out your ordinary life so you either keep to yourself and dont become a kabba mein haddy or better yet for them - they make you join them.
3) Threats - If you dont do this or that, your brother, sister etc. will end up .........
4) Luring by money etc. - young teenagers, or jobless youth, are attracted for the money they hand out, which has originated from these criminals foreign sponsors.
5) Incentives - When you are an ordinary village man and are offered first by deceit, a 4 by 4, hard cash, other stuff, you dont bother to ask Why?, it is later on, that they. misuse you.
6) A stable fat salary. - Recent captured criminal leaders revealed how they were paid from 1,50,000 to 5,00,000 per month by these barbarians.
[/QUOTE]Thanks for enlightening me but i have not been passed through such experiences and offers and YES also punjabi taliban.
My point was that the parents or relative should not be made accountable are humiliated who have opposed and tried to stop their kids or relative to join taliban.
There are many reasons of spread of talibanization, ranging from domestic failed justice system to failed democracy,international injustice i.e palestine, kashmir, iraq and afghan war to domestic socio-economic problems.
EyelessInGaza
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The violence disturbed me. You cannot justify what the PA has done, as seen in this video, by any principle, or any logic that is based on humanity. Indeed these acts degrade our common humanity.
However, life is as we find it, not what we'd like it to be. And in real life your enemy is brutal, unwilling to compromise and without mercy. Gandhian methods are hardly going to work.
There's a George Orwell quote - People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
Obviously, these 'rough men' cannot be allowed to become the enemy in the methods they use; for then the battle becomes unwinnable. But it hasn't happened here, IMO.
The key point to me is that in letting this video out, the PA has lost an important media battle. You can be sure this video is going to be seen and shown wherever there is Taliban.
However, life is as we find it, not what we'd like it to be. And in real life your enemy is brutal, unwilling to compromise and without mercy. Gandhian methods are hardly going to work.
There's a George Orwell quote - People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
Obviously, these 'rough men' cannot be allowed to become the enemy in the methods they use; for then the battle becomes unwinnable. But it hasn't happened here, IMO.
The key point to me is that in letting this video out, the PA has lost an important media battle. You can be sure this video is going to be seen and shown wherever there is Taliban.
Unbeliever
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It is quite disgusting what they did to these poor people.
Yes some might be Taliban, but some were civilians and some elderly over 60.
A few almost definitely innocent.
Not matter what, if that is common in Pakistan's police stations(as someone pointed out earlier) I am very glad I am far away.. oO
And Taliban or not, they deserve to get caught, imprisoned even killed in combat, but torture is beneath civilization..
And don't say "doubtful" video.. that is so irritating as if posting a "doubtful video of the earth rotating" thread. This is all over the news, dozens of independent news outlets in at least 3 languages (that is the ones I can read) are reporting on it. So stop with the propaganda spin, it is pathetic.
Yes some might be Taliban, but some were civilians and some elderly over 60.
A few almost definitely innocent.
Not matter what, if that is common in Pakistan's police stations(as someone pointed out earlier) I am very glad I am far away.. oO
And Taliban or not, they deserve to get caught, imprisoned even killed in combat, but torture is beneath civilization..
And don't say "doubtful" video.. that is so irritating as if posting a "doubtful video of the earth rotating" thread. This is all over the news, dozens of independent news outlets in at least 3 languages (that is the ones I can read) are reporting on it. So stop with the propaganda spin, it is pathetic.
mjnaushad
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The Major first asked gently but they didnt cooperate. But when they start beating these innocent civilian they started to talk. So how are they innocent.
2nd The army only beat them. Muslim khan himself proudly accepted that he burned Pakistani soldier alive and enjoyed watching them die.
@Unbeliever. This torture is wrong but what happen in Afghanistan and USA CIA torture cells thats all right. Kind of double standard.
2nd The army only beat them. Muslim khan himself proudly accepted that he burned Pakistani soldier alive and enjoyed watching them die.
@Unbeliever. This torture is wrong but what happen in Afghanistan and USA CIA torture cells thats all right. Kind of double standard.
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mjnaushad
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And yes if they go the "Human Rights" Way. It would be like that.
Major. Are you with taliban
Talib. No
Major. Ok next.
And after the last detainees they'll release them on having no proof against them and next thing they'll know is a truck full of explosive strike that building killing most of them and the rest of the soldiers getting a painful death by the same taliban.
So which method is good????
Major. Are you with taliban
Talib. No
Major. Ok next.
And after the last detainees they'll release them on having no proof against them and next thing they'll know is a truck full of explosive strike that building killing most of them and the rest of the soldiers getting a painful death by the same taliban.
So which method is good????
SSGPA1
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We need to wait for an explaination from the Pakistan Army before we criticize Pakistan Army.
Can this video be fake? Yes there is every single possibility.
If this is not fake then trust me PA will take action against those who are responsible.
So lets calm down and wait for the PA's investigation.
Can this video be fake? Yes there is every single possibility.
If this is not fake then trust me PA will take action against those who are responsible.
So lets calm down and wait for the PA's investigation.
Awesome
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Although not to take anything away from the fact that this sort of stuff routinely happens and Pakistan needs to fix this, but the Army is not usually involved in this. The army official kept repeating do not waste time and inquiring about captured police men. The scenario was "Beat the information out of them or else all the hostages will die".
If there was a ticking time bomb (and it was confirmed Taliban in their hands - the first guy clearly admitted being Taliban, the video was edited where the elderly people said something) then it makes some sense to resort to these tactics. However there should still be procedure and the authorization to use torture comes from someone senior.
The use of torture against terror suspects is quite common around the world. There are many people who have given accounts within US captivity, who were later released since they were not guilty. The US torture cells did beat people to the pulp as well. India's infamous TADA, POTO system constitutionally allows it.
Torture can be necessary in a ticking time bomb scenario where you need the truth and you need it now. But it should be the call of someone extremely senior who is ready to take the repercussions of being wrong
Rank
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First of all define TALIBAN
Who is actually TALIBAN!! and Who is real TERRORIST!!
When we caught such taliban (so called taliban maybe not real) we kick .... and when US Drone violate our border where is Pakistan army that time ???
About the video ... I cant say anything and also not intrested in Pakistan Army Investigation we know howz our investigation in past.
Who control eX (Black water) in pakistan right now ?? with evidence some of retired military person involve right ? why not pakistan army beat him like THIS ?????
So many questions....***Taliban*** killing 1000 of civilin right ?? from where thy get such HEAVY WEAPONS ??? is there any INVESTIGATION report from military side ? and if Pakistan have evidence why not take action against CIA, RAW ??? why not raise such issue in Unitednation ?
maybe possiblity this video is fake let see..
by the way this is normal CHITROOL! lol better thn killing innocent civilianz by talibz
Who is actually TALIBAN!! and Who is real TERRORIST!!
When we caught such taliban (so called taliban maybe not real) we kick .... and when US Drone violate our border where is Pakistan army that time ???
About the video ... I cant say anything and also not intrested in Pakistan Army Investigation we know howz our investigation in past.
Who control eX (Black water) in pakistan right now ?? with evidence some of retired military person involve right ? why not pakistan army beat him like THIS ?????
So many questions....***Taliban*** killing 1000 of civilin right ?? from where thy get such HEAVY WEAPONS ??? is there any INVESTIGATION report from military side ? and if Pakistan have evidence why not take action against CIA, RAW ??? why not raise such issue in Unitednation ?
maybe possiblity this video is fake let see..
by the way this is normal CHITROOL! lol better thn killing innocent civilianz by talibz
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