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Don't Push India To Build Anti-China Alliance: OSD Official

What nonsense, total crap. India has always been saying that all it's millitary buildup including nuclear and missile tests are directed towards China, now what is the purpose of this statment, "don't push india to build anti-china alliance" other than to admit that india alone is no match for it and needs external help. Where is that two-front war capability now?
 
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China, India and the lesson of Megara's burning pigs
Praveen Swami


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STRATEGY: India may well need more hardware but it needs to think about what it needs, and how to use it to best effect like the Megarans. Photo: S.Subramanium




TOPICS
defence national security



General V.K. Singh's leaked letter on deficits in India's defence has fostered hysteria. Fearsome as China's military build-up might be, it isn't clear why Indians should be fearful.

In 266 BCE, the armies of Emperor Antigonus II Gonatas laid siege to Megara, hoping to seize the small, but wealthy, city's harbours. The contest was, at first glance, hopeless: Antigonus's armies were much larger and backed, moreover, by phalanxes of battle-elephants.

Faced with certain defeat — the ancient military historian Poluainos recorded in his classic, Strategems in War — the Megarans hit upon a tactic of considerable genius. The city's pigs were doused in resin and set on fire as they were pushed out of the gates. Panicked by the sight of the burning, squealing pigs, the elephants broke ranks and fled, trampling many of Antigonus' army.

Indians panicked by Army Chief V.K. Singh's grim warnings on system-wide deficits in the country's war-preparedness might profit from the lesson of Megara's burning pigs: in war, the side with the bigger guns doesn't always win. The anxiety underpinning much of the debate provoked by General Singh's leaked letter to the Prime Minister isn't hard to miss. The rise of an allegedly-malevolent China, many in India's strategic community fear, makes the prospect of a war almost inevitable: a war that Pakistan, more likely than not, will capitalise upon.

Back in 2008, Defence Minister A.K. Anthony is believed to have issued a formal directive calling on the armed forces to prepare themselves for a two-front war. Mulayam Singh Yadav, India's former Defence Minister, even told Parliament in November 2011 that he had evidence China was “going to attack us soon.” “The attack can take place any time,” he asserted.

Two reasons

The facts behind fears like these are well known. China's declared military budget for this year is $106.4 billion, up from about $91.5 billion in 2011, and in line with a more than a decade-long expansion of over 12 per cent a year, a little over the growth of its wealth. It is expanding its cruise and ballistic missile arsenal; the new Dong Feng-21D, comes with a manoeuvrable warhead that constitutes the first serious threat to United States carriers in the Pacific. It has rolled out a prototype for a fifth-generation stealth fighter and inducted an aircraft carrier.

Fearsome as China's military build-up might be, though, it isn't clear if Indians need to be fearful. India isn't, for one, China's principal threat. Eight of China's 18 Group Armies — the equivalent, roughly, of a corps — face out on its south-eastern seaboard, trained and equipped for a war over Taiwan. “Much of the observed upgrade activity,” the U.S. Department of Defence noted in a 2011 report, “has occurred in units with the potential to be involved in a Taiwan contingency.”

In the Koreas, the People Liberation Army (PLA) must consider the prospect of everything from a full-blown war involving nuclear weapons to a meltdown which could send millions of refugees across its borders. Its forces must be prepared to deal with an insurgency in Xinjiang, and potential disorder in Tibet. They must protect China's trade routes, and guard contested basins of energy in the high seas. Each of these threats could conceivably lead to a showdown with the U.S. — the world's pre-eminent power.

India's second reason not to be fearful of China's military growth is this: the threat is made up of gunpowder, but also hype. The case of China's submarine threat is instructive. Five years ago, analysts in the U.S. were predicting that the PLA Navy would outstrip their submarine holdings by 2011. But Russia, concerned about the expansion of China's naval power, held back on supplies of critical technology — and the U.S. doubled its submarine production.

Last year, the U.S. estimated that China has five nuclear-powered attack submarines, three of them 091 Han-class vessels that are reaching the end of their service lives. In addition, it has some 50 diesel submarines, half of them obsolete, and a handful of experimental ballistic-missile submarines.

The U.S. Navy, though, has 53 attack submarines, four guided-missile submarines and 14 ballistic-missile boats — 71 in all. All this not counting the fleets of its European partners, and regional allies like Japan, Korea and Australia.

Lessons of 1962

None of this, China-sceptics in India argue, is reason to be sanguine — pointing, almost always, to the war of 1962 as an example of the costs of complacency. In fact, that war is an excellent illustration of the proposition that weapons capabilities alone don't win wars. From P.B. Sinha and A.A. Athale's History of the Conflict With China, 1962, an official account commissioned by the Union Defence Ministry in 1992, we know this: “Chinese weapons, equipment organisation and training were better than that of the Indians. But this superiority was only marginal. By itself it would not have proved decisive.”

India's Air Force, notably, was actually better equipped than its Chinese adversaries — crippled because the country's rupture with the Soviet Union had left it without access to spares, and without airfields in Tibet from where its jets could carry full payloads. However, India chose not to use its superior air power — fearing, among other things, that it would open the way for retaliatory strikes.

John Galbraith, the U.S. Ambassador to New Delhi, also lobbied hard against air strikes, fearing his country, then engaged in a stand-off with the Soviet Union over the placement of nuclear missiles in Cuba, would be dragged into the war.

The then-Director of Operations at air headquarters, H.C. Dewan, argued in a 1988 interview that the use of air assets would have been of limited use, since the North-East's jungles provided infantry with cover to the attackers.

Dr. Sinha and Colonel Athale, however, disputed this proposition, noting that air strikes would have crippled China's logistics, and made the passage of its forces through mountain passes lethal going. Either way, the lesson is simple: superiority doesn't mean military victory.

Last year, in a talk delivered around the same time Mr. Yadav was holding out his prediction of imminent assault, the scholar Kanti Bajpai offered several sound military reasons why 1962 wouldn't happen again. He pointed to the difficulties in destroying India's Air Force, necessary to secure China's logistics; the robust defensive positions occupied by India's Army in the Himalayas; the limited capabilities to wage a naval campaign in the Indian Ocean; the risks of internal conflict in Tibet breaking out; and, above all, the risk of a nuclear conflagration.

Dr. Bajpai concluded by asserting that “war between the two countries is not very likely unless one or the other engages in highly provocative, ill-judged behaviour — and even then, with nuclear weapons and air power, it would be very risky to go to war.”

What is to be learned

Indian diplomats have been listening, but not its military: the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute recently stated that India has become the world's largest importer of arms in 2007-2011 — playing catch-up with China, which held top position in 2002-2006. It seems unclear, though, precisely what kinds of war these acquisitions are intended to address. In 2010, former Army Chief Deepak Kapoor spoke of a two-front war. Not many weeks later, Gen. Singh suggested he saw little risk of conventional war, but insisted that India “should have a great amount of conventional capability.”

Precisely what a “great amount” might be has never been defined: in military debates, everything from all-out conventional wars to limited, localised wars in the Himalaya are discussed, often in the same breath. Indeed, it's hard to erase the suspicion that India is still preparing to fight the 1962 war again: its forces are deployed on much the same axis, and its tactical language remains unchanged.

Faced with questions, Indian military strategists often argue that armies need to prepare for possible wars, not just predictable ones. This proposition isn't as robust as it first seems. No army in the world has infinite resources — and in a volatile world, almost any war is conceivable.

Gen. Singh's letter has had the salutary impact of focussing attention on delays and corruption in defence acquisition. It has also had the wholly undesirable consequence of engendering a public culture in which any, and all, military claims for equipment are seen as legitimate.

For India to shape a serious response to the military rise of China, its intelligentsia and military establishment ought be studying China far harder. India's universities, intelligence services and military all have large shortages of staff even familiar with the language of our most important neighbour, let alone the intricacies of its strategic thinking. India may well need more hardware — but it needs to think about what hardware it needs, and how to use it to best effect like the Megarans.

India's pre-1962 military, the official history recorded, conducted “no studies of Chinese war tactics.” “No debriefing was done,” it continues, “after the Korean war to learn about their ways of working and fighting. Nobody seems to have cared to know [sic].” Few, it seems, still do.
 
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What nonsense, total crap. India has always been saying that all it's millitary buildup including nuclear and missile tests are directed towards China, now what is the purpose of this statment, "don't push india to build anti-china alliance" other than to admit that india alone is no match for it and needs external help. Where is that two-front war capability now?


two front war with China and Pakistan will always be difficult situation for India. But If this type of war happens then obviously India will get enough support from outside. India have capabilities but to endure it for several week or months it surely will need support.

India is only preparing itself for all the ifs it doesn't mean India is anti CHINA but we can not sit with our eyes closed when China is increasing its military power.

and I don't think there is possibility of two front war .It will be deeply hurt China's Image and foreign relations remember India is not 1962's India its 2012' India who have many friends other than Russia...
 
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To my way of thinking, it's just ridiculous all this talk of India vs China -- Why would India want something like that? India does more trade with China than it does with US and Europe and the potential is enormous, plus, India is a forward looking country, not a country stuck in the past --India as a vital part of a prosperous Asia, as an important partner to all Asian countries, that's an India with a bright future, as opposed to an India serving the interests of former colonial Masters.
 
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US and UN forces had complete air and sea dominance with no restriction on its use. China had just inherited a bankcrupt and destroyed country and was a poor 3rd world country with obsolete weapons. Yet managed to cause the longest military retreat in the history of the United States. Yes China suffered a lot cauaties. This just show how determined Chinese people are.... even in the face of a nuclear threat. Unlike some people that just abandon their weapons and ran.

Longest retreat which led to a counter attack by the same force. You almost had South Korea wiped out but it wasn't enough.
 
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And what is China doing with Pakistan since 1960s?
Hoooooooooo...............you forgot to mention USA toooooooooooooo................So be Cautious in any Military alliance with US..............

To my way of thinking, it's just ridiculous all this talk of India vs China -- Why would India want something like that? India does more trade with China than it does with US and Europe and the potential is enormous, plus, India is a forward looking country, not a country stuck in the past --India as a vital part of a prosperous Asia, as an important partner to all Asian countries, that's an India with a bright future, as opposed to an India serving the interests of former colonial Masters.
Thanks............you have put it right..................
 
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india betrayed China in 2009 by reneging on their promise to vacate Tawang. China responded with airbases in Tibet. Then india got very scared so now they remain neutral. Any stupid move and india will be crushed by two-front war. China already sold Pakistan mach 5.5 air-launched, 240 km range ground attack missiles.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...hed-carrier-killer-240-km-export-version.html


try and attack us. then only pak also realise and will stop getting cheap toys from you for their armed forces. because we will make your flying toys into ashes.
 
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US and UN forces had complete air and sea dominance with no restriction on its use. China had just inherited a bankcrupt and destroyed country and was a poor 3rd world country with obsolete weapons. Yet managed to cause the longest military retreat in the history of the United States. Yes China suffered a lot cauaties. This just show how determined Chinese people are.... even in the face of a nuclear threat. Unlike some people that just abandon their weapons and ran.

Everyone witnessed Chinese determination towards Pakistan in 1971 war.
 
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Every Chinese prefered Indi Chini bhai bhai back to 1960. Blame Nehru, not China. We are not pushing you to our enemy, it's up to you choice. Nehru at begining was a sincere friend of China, but his ambitious was out of control at that time.

I agree with your point and i have relevant information in proving your words right.

But i am not going to provide it since it can hurt a few fellow members of mine.
 
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To my way of thinking, it's just ridiculous all this talk of India vs China -- Why would India want something like that? India does more trade with China than it does with US and Europe and the potential is enormous, plus, India is a forward looking country, not a country stuck in the past --India as a vital part of a prosperous Asia, as an important partner to all Asian countries, that's an India with a bright future, as opposed to an India serving the interests of former colonial Masters.
There are underlying deep tensions between India and China.

Those need to be addressed. China has chosen a strategy of propping up Pakistan to keep India occupied in South Asia and not be the Asian powerhouse that can rival China. So far it was worked wonders.
The flaw in their planning was - they never expected India to boom like they did. India clout and military has grown immensely in the last 2 decades. That has made them reevaluate their options.

Pakistan is no longer the counterweight of India it used to be.
To be a global challenger to US, China needs to be unchallenged in Asia. India is the only competitor.

Now, as i said, by being aggressive against India on diplomatic front on border talks, China pushes India to go closer to US and Japan. That is very detrimental to Chinese interests.
 
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There are underlying deep tensions between India and China.

Those need to be addressed. China has chosen a strategy of propping up Pakistan to keep India occupied in South Asia and not be the Asian powerhouse that can rival China. So far it was worked wonders.
The flaw in their planning was - they never expected India to boom like they did. India clout and military has grown immensely in the last 2 decades. That has made them reevaluate their options.

Pakistan is no longer the counterweight of India it used to be.
To be a global challenger to US, China needs to be unchallenged in Asia. India is the only competitor.

Now, as i said, by being aggressive against India on diplomatic front on border talks, China pushes India to go closer to US and Japan. That is very detrimental to Chinese interests.
LOL at indians. As soon as we did airstrike exercises from airbases in Tibet, they knew the whole country will collapse into pieces as soon as delhi gets bombed into ashes by PLAAF.
 
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LOL at indians. As soon as we did airstrike exercises from airbases in Tibet, they knew the whole country will collapse into pieces as soon as delhi gets bombed into ashes by PLAAF.

If this is a display of the average level of intelligence in China, I guess that there is not that much to worry. Do you think your shiny cities are nuke proof? :hitwall:
 
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