Does India need Secularism?

[bronxbull]

If it is a fact, you got to know at least the year and the general area where it took place.

If you can't provide the year/place, then it is a rumor.

No I am not saying it didn't happen.

I want to make sure you know what you really are talking about.

Heresy and rumors don't count in serious discussion.

You can talk to people from the villages across India including Punjab,Haryana etc and this is a lengthy discussion.

you ll see the scars of conversion.

Latest one is by Tipu Sultan,even there are reports of blatant attempts by the congress to whitewash all this history by the congress.

i have buereaucrats in my family.

waise sach ka saamna karo miyaan,bhaagne se kiya hoga.

But my question is why would you want to send your fellow citizens to a hostile state? As stated by one of the PDF member over here, the real problem is not religious animosity but land and power/wealth so I don't think your solution would work.

cuz they deserve it.

 

[FaujHistorian]

You can talk to people from the villages across India including Punjab,Haryana etc a.

Any results from "talking to people" and getting first hand account now will point out to the period of few decades.

That means 1980s.

Is that the time you have in mind?

 

[The_Showstopper]

cuz they deserve it.

Good to know that this is what you think...

 

[wolfpack]

Secularism is humanity - the worlds made of multi racial, multi ethnic, multi religious, multi cultural people - a great country is one that recognizes and celebrates this diversity.

If it was secularism,we had advaita,dvaita,nasthik(atheist) ,tantrik, vama marga,kaula marga,aghori sect ,jains, buddhist,sikh, etc.Yet all were accepted.So we were already celebrating diversity "Vasudaiva kutumbham" is what Lord shivas family signifies , where the mount of lord shiva is Nandi(Bull)While the Mount of godess Durga is Lion ,Karthikeyas mount is Peacock(Which is against the Nag(snake which Lord Shiva wears around his body).If they all lived in perfect harmony Even though their real feral natures were opposite that itself shows secularism.Why do you think this secularism is a new thing it already existed long before the White man came and taught us about it in english.

 

[wolfpack]

1.) Every successful nation today is secular country. Building a nation on religion is simply backwards and will cause problems.

2.) Secularism ensures that minorities are protected

3.) Secularism ensures social peace, which is incredibly important because India has +300 million non Hindus!

4.) There was no India before 1947

5.) Secularism is simply the best way to ensure that people can live together peacefully.

1)All successful nations have the foundation of a religious nation first then they became secular, If you are taking West as examples they were Christian nations first, don't deny it.

2)Where in indian history did you witness genocide of minorities?Parsis,jews,buddhists still exist in india.While they were wiped out from them their homelands ,all this was done when every kingdom was a hindu kingdom not mughal kingdom mind you.

3)Social peace was always there, It is only the minority who belong to Monotheistic religions who try to rub off their religious edicts on majority hindus that is when clashes occur.Don't tell me Monotheistic religions will vouch and say hinduism is also a way to GOD!

4)There was always Bharat before 1947,The only civilization still existing since past 5000 years is Sanathana Dharma while others preished or withered,were still standing strong aren't we?

5)What brand of secularism is simply the best way to ensure people can live together peacefully?While you Evangelize convert and denigrate our Gods, we are supposed to keep quiet?Will you do the same when it comes to your GOD?

 

[acid rain]

If it was secularism,we had advaita,dvaita,nasthik(atheist) ,tantrik, vama marga,kaula marga,aghori sect ,jains, buddhist,sikh, etc.Yet all were accepted.So we were already celebrating diversity "Vasudaiva kutumbham" is what Lord shivas family signifies , where the mount of lord shiva is Nandi(Bull)While the Mount of godess Durga is Lion ,Karthikeyas mount is Peacock(Which is against the Nag(snake which Lord Shiva wears around his body).If they all lived in perfect harmony Even though their real feral natures were opposite that itself shows secularism.Why do you think this secularism is a new thing it already existed long before the White man came and taught us about it in english.

I am not a Hindu, I am a roman catholic. I hope you dont have a problem with that or with the fact that I want India to be the same as it is now.

 

[wolfpack]

Yes, we will accept and take KASHMIR, HARYANA, UTTAR PRADESH AND BIHAR ( the poorest of Indian States ) and nearly 250 million Muslims. Problem solved. Only Hindus in Hindustan to be once and for all a great country. We will sign a No war pact with India.

No war pact? Just like A mughal king swore on koran promising no harm to Shivaji and and going back on his word?

Not really.


Secularism is a flawed ideology created by libertarian philosophers of medieval Europe in order to reduce the Church's power. Being an organized religion, Christianity then was extremely aggressive and controlled every single aspect of European lives. It was so extreme then that people got fed up and thus this word came into existence over time.

In our country and culture, that is not the case.

Because if it were, there would have been nobody else in our country other than you, we, sardars etc.

So secularism by definition is flawed.

The right system should be:

Uniform Civil Law for all in the matter of national administration.

So if say for example, a family planning program is launched, it will be applicable for everyone regardless.

If a national act is passed it will be followed by all.


If a stern anti-reservation rule is passed, it will be followed by all without whining and protesting.

And so on.

Most of them were Templars who were branded Heretic by king of france due to their growing power and banking system which they are credited for inventing.The libertarian philosophers belonged to that order and the free masons.

 

[wolfpack]

It can't be changed. It is a basic tenet of the Indian constitution (forget the preamble), the Supreme Court has declared that the basic tenets can't be changed, irrespective of who commands what majority. End of story.


Tired of people boasting how Hindus have always been secular.......ya right! Tell it to the dalits, the adivasis & everyone else who suffered millennia of caste repression. Very secular that. The absolute cussedness in continuing with that stupid argument makes me want to puke.

ehh? so are you secular or communal?

 

[Koovie]

1)All successful nations have the foundation of a religious nation first then they became secular, If you are taking West as examples they were Christian nations first, don't deny it.

2)Where in indian history did you witness genocide of minorities?Parsis,jews,buddhists still exist in india.While they were wiped out from them their homelands ,all this was done when every kingdom was a hindu kingdom not mughal kingdom mind you.

3)Social peace was always there, It is only the minority who belong to Monotheistic religions who try to rub off their religious edicts on majority hindus that is when clashes occur.Don't tell me Monotheistic religions will vouch and say hinduism is also a way to GOD!

4)There was always Bharat before 1947,The only civilization still existing since past 5000 years is Sanathana Dharma while others preished or withered,were still standing strong aren't we?

5)What brand of secularism is simply the best way to ensure people can live together peacefully?While you Evangelize convert and denigrate our Gods, we are supposed to keep quiet?Will you do the same when it comes to your GOD?

1.) So we should go back in our development level, so that we can experience all this religious BS as well ?

2.) So a religious state can protect minorities better than one that does not have a religion? Wow

3.) "Social peace was always there" - prove that. And again, a state with an official religion brings more stability than a state without any official religion ?



4.) No there wasnt. The two things which came closest to a more or less unified country were the Mughal and the Mauryan empires.
In fact most historians will agree on that. Hundreds of different states with different languages, people, customs, religions cannot
be called a country.

5.) Secularism means that the state does not CARE about what the people believe in!

And as long as those conversions happen without breaking any laws, like using violence, its no concern for the state! People are free to believe in what they want. And no, I dont have a problem if a Christians turns into a Hindu, Muslim or what ever as long as he is not forced to do it!

 

[wolfpack]

I am not a Hindu, I am a roman catholic. I hope you dont have a problem with that or with the fact that I want India to be the same as it is now.

I don't have a problem as long as you don't disrespect my religion quoting your scriptures that we go to hell so and so...
The only problem arises is when you use your intelligence to evangelize.
You stick to your own and i to mine, we will be happy neighbours.

 

[acid rain]

ehh? ................

You will change India into what?? People of my religion form what? around 1% or so of India's population and are on the wane, our birth rates are probably among the lowest in India - I am not including the protestants here because we dont have the same church or follow the same Gods. How does it really matter to us what you change our country into? we are a minority and have our preferences of how we perceive our land to be - but then we cannot see our country end up in any kind of communal strife.

 

[acid rain]

I don't have a problem as long as you don't disrespect my religion quoting your scriptures that we go to hell so and so...
The only problem arises is when your intelligence to evangelize.
You stick to your own and i to mine, we will be happy neighbours.

LOL, evangelists are not catholics, infact evangelists are out converting catholics to their church. Catholics dont engage in conversion or preach on those lines to anyone.

 

[wolfpack]

1.) So we should go back in our development level, so that we can experience all this religious BS as well ?

2.) So a religious state can protect minorities better than one that does not have a religion? Wow

3.) "Social peace was always there" - prove that. And again, a state with an official religion brings more stability than a state without any official religion ?



4.) No there wasnt. The two things which came closest to a more or less unified country were the Mughal and the Mauryan empires.
In fact most historians will agree on that. Hundreds of different states with different languages, people, customs, religions cannot
be called a country.

5.) Secularism means that the state does not CARE about what the people believe in!

And as long as those conversions happen without breaking any laws, like using violence, its no concern for the state! People are free to believe in what they want. And no, I dont have a problem if a Christians turns into a Hindu, Muslim or what ever as long as he is not forced to do it!

1)You need not take a time travel trip it is all documented and there for you to see.If you still feign ignorance after looking at evidence, then i call BS when i see one.

2)Yes indeed,why the Wow factor?Tell me your advantages and disadvantages of it rather than quoting ,this is good and that is bad because you think so.Let's hear your points.You lived in ancient India and compared that in the same timeline to countries ruled by monotheistic religions?I would like to hear them.

3)There is a identity among populace that their ancestors were all hindus etc.Just like Chinese are Han even though they have many ethnicities.

4)Is that what your textbook told you, If i become old and become a famous historian and write books about indian history somewhere down the line people like you will parrot what i say instead of looking both sides with a neutral view.No intelligent deduction as to how they arrived at that conclusion, just quote them(Rote learning).The reason we lack good papers be it in scientific,history etc. is we write Reviews instead of an original article.

5)So, you want conversions to happen, just like benny HINN does? or like how they shot that swami in odisha for stopping conversion, or how Nagaland for christ happens? and how African countries have frequent riots due to monotheistic religions battling it out in ground zero as who is converting without breaking any laws? You think people are stupid and they dont see?

 

[wolfpack]

You will change India into what?? People of my religion form what? around 1% or so of India's population and are on the wane, our birth rates are probably among the lowest in India - I am not including the protestants here because we dont have the same church or follow the same Gods. How does it really matter to us what you change our country into? we are a minority and have our preferences of how we perceive our land to be - but then we cannot see our country end up in any kind of communal strife.

What? your birth rates are low ok. Your evangelization gets you new recruits its like a fight between elder brother and younger and fastest spreading religion in the world(you know what i mean)as to how many people they can get on their side when push comes to shove.I don't want to go into the TRINITY thing or your church to church differences.You see Parsis,Jews ,sikhs,Jains,Buddhist we tried to change them? NO we didn't , so how are you threatened when they are not by US?
Yes perceive the earth to be flat for all i care.Why do you view others as going to hell if they don't prescribe your brand of religion?Got any Scientific proof we go to hell?

LOL, evangelists are not catholics, infact evangelists are out converting catholics to their church. Catholics dont engage in conversion or preach on those lines to anyone.

And the same catholic church regretted the GOA INQUISITION, yeah please tell that story somewhere.For one i don't care its your religion.What you do inside is not my concern.Are we amicable to these terms?Or you want to say i would go to hell?

 

[Coltsfan]

No, however a Hindu Revival will certainly bring back some of the value systems that have been lost in time due to invasions.

What value system do you speak of? Mind sharing few examples?