Disturbing Similarity To Vietnam

[S-2]

"And with all due respect sir the whole Pakistani Media is showing the images of the wepons being captured from the millitants are either mainly of Indian genre or of US . They have the most sophisticated communication system . And the your general is sayin that more millitants are crossing the border in to Pakistan.
PLZ eloborate where the hell they are getting American Weponary from ?

And i have no grudje against the America . You guys are our bigest trade partner. However if your nation continues to Lookafter our enemy in Afghanistan and uses it to wage proxies from our westren border and continues to point fingers at the security of our Nuclear Arsenal then yes i will stand up to you and i will fight you."

Great. You've got serial numbers on the markings? Transfer them as the GAO has conducted a study of such in Afghanistan and can use the information. We know weapons have gone missing but you'd be foolish to believe that among the SWAT militants, the afghan taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan as well as the "bad" taliban of B. Mehsud, there are hardly enough weapons missing to outfit them all.

Gulf states. Biggest private arms dealers in the world. They know this market VERY well. Channels to move guns and dope well intact, wahabbist/salafi/deobandi savvy, and very, very rich. Clear your head and put on your thinking cap.

Forty nations in Afghanistan. Have ANY of them suggested training camps for afghan "mercenaries" fighting in Pakistan? Not one. Nada. Zilch. Nope.

Can Pakistan say the same. No. You've well-established camps that reach back decades, thousands of your own afghan refugees, and ALL that infrastructure put together by those retired ISI guys.

SWAT and Buner are simple but profound examples of what goes around comes around. Blowback in the most transparent sense. When you allow taliban and Al Qaeda access in 2002 to your lands to wage war in Afghanistan, sorry if your intentionally uneducated hillbillies become radicalized in the mesmerizing presence of these "warriors". Maybe the next time around you'll provide these simple people with the education necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Blame the world if it makes any of you feel better but nobody's listening to this narrative and you are the victims of your own muslim selves.

Thanks.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

We know weapons have gone missing but you'd be foolish to believe that among the SWAT militants, the afghan taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan as well as the "bad" taliban of B. Mehsud, there are hardly enough weapons missing to outfit them all.

Even if those wepons have gone missing they would rather be in the hands of those talibans who are fighting in Afghanistan not in the hands of those fighting in SWAT . Infact these wepons and the main hardcore micreants have came from accross the border. And how abt the 17 indian intel units being deployed in Afghanistan specifically for the purpose of sponcering terror in Pakistan. We know they provide training to the millitants and then transport them across the border. Now all this is happening from Afghanistan , US forces there must have known such kind of activity. Infact they do , and they continue to protect Indian intersts in Afghanistan.

Blame the world if it makes any of you feel better but nobody's listening to this narrative and you are the victims of your own muslim selves.

So i guess the world listnes to those who boastfully spoke the truth abt iraqi wmds and silently support the israili massacre and have alot of respect of human rights which are being diplayed in abu gharib and gontanamo .

 

[S-2]

"...how abt the 17 indian intel units being deployed in Afghanistan specifically for the purpose of sponcering terror in Pakistan."

Will they be staying at those 16 consulates...

...or is it twenty.

I thought that was supposed to be a secret. You guys are really good.

Oh, read the Chivers article in the NYT on our ammo being used against US. Sh!t happens but those forty nations aren't seeing Indian intell units running around and you haven't even caught a clue that half this insurgency is being funded by dope and the other half by gulf donations.

What say you about your wahabbi/salafi brothers in the gulf states? Good guys, eh?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

back to thread please - drop the 'Indian consulate' issue and return to what Indian Falcon started this thread on.

The discussion was going along reasonably well earlier.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

^^ Can do.

First, undeniably, questioning PA's strategy in Swat and other areas is sound; I am sure that everyone here naturally has their ideas. The question, however, is however being debated in the main Swat thread, with Hellfire in particular playing the role of critic well.

Second, citing images (tanks in mountainous regions, copters on hilltops) to come to a general conclusion (i.e. Vietnam) is helpful if it is then backed by a backbone of informed opinion.

Which leads me to my third point, namely that IndianFalcon's third post in this thread is a 'lift', i.e a copy and paste from wikipedia and other sources, and I stopped reading around that point. Google it. I have no problems with people citing wikipedia, I use it myself. However, an attribute would be nice, otherwise it vindicates S-2's charges of facile scholarship.

I will however say this: In the Vietnam war, 'five o clock follies' was a derisive term used by the press for US army press conferences , where spokesmen routinely used to claim 10,20, 50 Vietminh KIA. A similar term was used by the press for the Indian Army's conferences in Jaffna in the late 80s. I now see that PA is also beginning to claim scores, sometimes hundreds of enemy casualties on a regular basis!

 

[kidwaibhai]

as far as the similarity with Vietnam goes. i don't think that there are many. the mission in Afghanistan is sponsored by the UN. there are 40 nations participating in this project while in Vietnam i think there were only Americans and Australians.
as far as Pakistan is concerned there is nothing imperialistic about our actions in sawat. first of all what do you people mean by that imperialist powers come from the outside to another country. sawat is still part of Pakistan. imperialism is political in nature and is sometimes supplemented with armed force. the people of sawat wanted the army to act because the taliban had made there life hell. plus most of the religious establishment that is the barelvi establishment want stern action taken against the talibs. so there is nothing that is similar to the soviet actions.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

To continue with the discussion of a Vietnam analogy, I think that the one comparison that PA and GOP do not want is that of the events after the Tet offensive.

When Giap launched his grand attacks, the American army, it is said by respected historians, was at the end of its tether. Tet broke the proverbial camel's back and, sometime later, the Americans gave in and got out.

Fast forward 30 years and it turns out that the Vietminh were equally shattered by their own grand assault. 'All' that the US establishment had to do was to retain the will to hold on and North Vietnam was more or less spent. US would have won that war. Or so goes the current interpretation. revisionist history? I dunno. Regardless, my point is that willpower is going to be decisive; who can hold out the longest?

Another related point; comparisons to Vietnam and US Army failures there are alright, but most people tend to forget the intense soul searching that the US army did post Vietnam. I'm an outsider but it seems to me that, unless the game changes completely, the American establishment is not going to let go, far less the US Army, if only because they remember Vietnam and remember it well. Most people underestimate the American's capability to reinvent themselves.

America often blunders in her dealings with the rest of the world; she comes across as arrogant; she can be naive - but these are failings of all superpowers since the Roman Empire.

In the end, never underestimate American grit. And the amazing, undiluted, in your face, focus of the average American. I have seen this for myself and learnt to appreciate it.

 

[Durran3]

Some of the American military ops you've mentioned are rescue missions where the US uses its military to escort their citizens and US officials out of harms way..

i don't see as a bad thing..

 

[Ratus Ratus]

while in Vietnam i think there were only Americans and Australians.

Ho Hum!!!!
Try the following for Vietnam

• US Forces: Army, USMC, Navy, Air Force
• Australia: Army, Navy, Air Force
• New Zealand
• Republic of Vietnam
• Republic of Korea (South Korea)
• Kingdom of Thailand
• Republic of the Philippines

I am not to sure where the "imperialism" comes in to the Vietnam war. I have not seem any proof of this.
Nations came because they were formally at government level asked to help.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There are critical differences between Vietnam/Afghanistan(Soviet invasion) and Swat today.

1. In both Vietnam and Afghanistan you had 'invaders', with the support of locals, acting against other locals (supported by other foreigners). This is completely different from Swat in that the Pakistani Army is fighting a conflict on its own territory, with very limited assistance (beyond weapons systems) from any other nation.

This lack of a foreign presence removes many of the complicating factors we saw in Vietnam and Afghanistan, and significantly reduces the amount of support the Taliban can garner from the locals with the argument of 'fighting off invaders'.

And in that sense the PA's refusal to have any significant US/Western footprint in Pakistan is very good policy.

2. Swat could be considered a 'settled area' vs 'Tribal', since it depended a great degree upon the tourism industry. The people have higher levels of education and travel, and the economic ties with the rest of Pakistan also inculcate a greater degree of Pakistani nationhood than what you would see in the Tribal areas. This is to again reinforce the point that the Taliban, lacking an 'invader' argument, would find it hard to garner local support, except through fear.

In terms of tactics, especially the whole 'air strike/artillery' issue - the Army has pointed out that it has taken great care to minimize collateral damage, and that claim seems to be borne out somewhat according to some of the reports put out by journalists taken on a tour of the warzone.

The reports indicated that there was little evidence that populated centers had been indiscriminately shelled or bombed, or had been significantly damaged at all.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

AM:
I think the originator of this thread was attempting and poorly at that to equate US involvement in Afghanistan to US involvement in Vietnam.
The main problem with what was presented is the thread originator had absolutely no concept of what it was talking about. Nor was even able in the slightest remote way able to make a real related comment. On the thread title re what was posted.

The issue of the Swat conflict has no relation to US involvement in Vietnam or so called similarities to Afghanistan.

 

[fatman17]

There are critical differences between Vietnam/Afghanistan(Soviet invasion) and Swat today.

1. In both Vietnam and Afghanistan you had 'invaders', with the support of locals, acting against other locals (supported by other foreigners). This is completely different from Swat in that the Pakistani Army is fighting a conflict on its own territory, with very limited assistance (beyond weapons systems) from any other nation.

This lack of a foreign presence removes many of the complicating factors we saw in Vietnam and Afghanistan, and significantly reduces the amount of support the Taliban can garner from the locals with the argument of 'fighting off invaders'.

And in that sense the PA's refusal to have any significant US/Western footprint in Pakistan is very good policy.

2. Swat could be considered a 'settled area' vs 'Tribal', since it depended a great degree upon the tourism industry. The people have higher levels of education and travel, and the economic ties with the rest of Pakistan also inculcate a greater degree of Pakistani nationhood than what you would see in the Tribal areas. This is to again reinforce the point that the Taliban, lacking an 'invader' argument, would find it hard to garner local support, except through fear.

In terms of tactics, especially the whole 'air strike/artillery' issue - the Army has pointed out that it has taken great care to minimize collateral damage, and that claim seems to be borne out somewhat according to some of the reports put out by journalists taken on a tour of the warzone.

The reports indicated that there was little evidence that populated centers had been indiscriminately shelled or bombed, or had been significantly damaged at all.[/QUOTE]

very important point - there has been a major shift in the PA policy - in bajaur it was the opposite!

 

[kidwaibhai]

Ho Hum!!!!
Try the following for Vietnam

• US Forces: Army, USMC, Navy, Air Force
• Australia: Army, Navy, Air Force
• New Zealand
• Republic of Vietnam
• Republic of Korea (South Korea)
• Kingdom of Thailand
• Republic of the Philippines

I am not to sure where the "imperialism" comes in to the Vietnam war. I have not seem any proof of this.
Nations came because they were formally at government level asked to help.

i apologize obviously i did not do enough research on this topic before commenting. i agree with you on the whole imperialism notion i dont know how this fits into anything

 

[Ratus Ratus]

i apologize obviously i did not do enough research on this topic before commenting. i agree with you on the whole imperialism notion i dont know how this fits into anything

No problem.
Imperialism is more of an emotive word now days and hence badly misused.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

INDIANFALCON

WATCHING THE PICTURES AND THE FEW VIDEOS CIRCULATED I COULD GET A DEJA VU FEELING....I WAS SUDDENLY TRANSPORTE TO VIETNAM.
I seriously doubt it. Going on your comments so far you would not have lasted long.

I SINCERELY HOPE THAT PAKISTAN ARMY USES ITS OWN THINK TANK AND STRATEGY RATHER THAN "THAKA HUA" US ARMY DOCTRINE.
Don't comment on any doctrine unless you know what it actually is. Since it is seldom available for public reading you are guessing.
Also doctrine is not a static notion. Learn a bit more before commenting.

TANKS GOING UP ON A WINDING MOUNTAIN ROAD !!!!!
Well if you got transported to Vietnam you would have tanks in the Big J. What is the sodding difference. Also try Greece WWII Not a lot of difference there either.

HELICOPTER BORNE TROOPS LANDING ON A HILL TOP !!!!!
Bit like the German SF landing gliders on a hill top as well in WWII for a rescue mission. Very successful as well.

MOST AMAZING AND NOT EFFECTIVE AT ALL
SOMETHING WEIRD IS HAPPENING
See a doctor he/she may solve you problem.

For a so called Mil Hist buff you miss a lot. Do some more reading then come back.