Disturbing Similarity To Vietnam

[INDIANFALCON]

This is for Bezerk-

The SSG commando's were dropped on mountains because that's what the commando's do. Go where your conventional force isn't able to. Exactly why they're called 'SPECIAL' operations. They were dropped behind enemy lines to form a circle around a hot zone where a top priority TTP commander was believed to be hiding. Their mission was to eliminate/capture the TTP commander.


..............so the SSG commandos landed and a fair number of photographs were taken to record this momentous ocassion.....and then what my dear fellow ......was the TTP commander killed / captured ......oh so you have no idea !!!???

There has been no announcement on this operation by ISPR....so we can safely conclude that in this case the TTP commander and his men had fully functional hearing and therefore melted away.

Quote:TANKS GOING UP ON A WINDING MOUNTAIN ROAD !!!!!

The Tanks (Al-Zarrar's) were sent up with the Infantry because close artillery support is not always effective in valleys and mountain passages because of the difficult terrain. Exactly why Medium battle tanks were used to provide heavy fire power support to the advancing infantry. Do you know anything about artillery "Trajectory"? Or the mountainous terrain of FATA and SWAT for that matter?

Tanks are useless in Mountain warfare-

In mountain terrain, and even in places like valleys and ravines, where tracked vehicles could be deployed, they can easily be ambushed from mountain sides and at choke points.

The other major disadvantage is that of tank guns not being able to elevate to a high enough angle in order to be able to return fire.The gun barrel also cannot be dpressed either beyond a certain point and therefore cannot bear fire except on limited axis.

If you ask a Tanker I am sure you will be told that Tanks were developed essentilaly for mobile warfare on the plains.

Also the rough terrain also extracts a heavy toll on the tanks
and their continued deployment becomes linked to extensive maintenance efforts.


The only thing weird is that you call yourself a 'Military History' student.

Atleast I admit I am student and do not pretend to be a MASTER !!

 

[S-2]

Indian Falcon, can you offer specific solutions to tomorrow without reference to yesterday? The problem is Pakistan and Afghanistan as conditions are now-today.

And your answer...?

Please do not draw grossly generalized historical analogies to the past. They are full of holes already but don't merit exploration. No operations as conducted by either ISAF nor the Pakistani army entail any similarities to Soviet operations 1979-1988. Objectives are utterly different and are reflected in the marked disparity in overall casualties suffered as compared to the Soviet-Afghan war.

After eight years of war in Afghanistan between 1980-1988, most estimates place total casualties anywhere from 900,000-3,000,000. Nobody has remotely suggested similar figures for Afghanistan today after seven and one-half years. Best calculations point to about 25,000 total deaths- 1/10th the Afghan civil war much less the Afghan-Soviet war.

My point is simple- the levels and application of violence is markedly lower overall and decidedly different for a variety of reasons. So too in Pakistan right now.

You've made no case yet, to include that you've the credibility to comment with expertise here. I hope that you'll do so for your sake as your facile display of scholarship to date is now at stake.

Thanks.

 

[Beskar]

..............so the SSG commandos landed and a fair number of photographs were taken to record this momentous ocassion.....and then what my dear fellow ......was the TTP commander killed / captured ......oh so you have no idea !!!???

There has been no announcement on this operation by ISPR....so we can safely conclude that in this case the TTP commander and his men had fully functional hearing and therefore melted away.

The commander didn't leave the area at the moment of impact. He was never there and that's what reports have told us so far. Intelligence error, yes, but not the operation fault. Enemy's casualties were high nonetheless.

Tanks are useless in Mountain warfare-

In mountain terrain, and even in places like valleys and ravines, where tracked vehicles could be deployed, they can easily be ambushed from mountain sides and at choke points.

The other major disadvantage is that of tank guns not being able to elevate to a high enough angle in order to be able to return fire.The gun barrel also cannot be dpressed either beyond a certain point and therefore cannot bear fire except on limited axis.

If you ask a Tanker I am sure you will be told that Tanks were developed essentilaly for mobile warfare on the plains.

Tanks aren't exactly 'Useless'. The tanks being used in our offensive are being used for maximum fire power 'Support', not a front line warrior going into unknown territories. Since the start, tanks have always been used to promote 'Fear' on the battlefield. There's no denying to that. Your enemy always thinks twice before engaging a 125mm cannon on wheels if they're in close range. Our Al-Zarrar's have been providing support and cover for our troops who move in to 'Secure' positions which have been previously fought by the regular infantry men with close air support from the Air and Artillery.

Atleast I admit I am student and do not pretend to be a MASTER !!

Good for you.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

The soviets failed because they were engaged in a gurilla war which was supported by the US by all means. More ever the main motivation for the gurillas was JEHAD against a non Islamic Army which is absent in the gurillas fighting in sawat. So that war cannot be compared to whats hapening in sawat. What is the real source of motivation for the Talibans in fighting against Pakistan Army i guess its the dollars and the arms supplied by the crossborder players. You cant compare that with JEHAD. Moreever the US itself is getting bogged down in Afghanistan so till when they will continue to fuel the millitants in Pakistan despite getting boged down by the Talibans in Afghanistan.

The US is not wining in Afghanistan either and the group which is used as an attack against Pakistan is also used by other parties to attack the US forces in Afghanistan. And those groups are not loyal to US also. The Russians will make the US pay even a more bitter price then they paid during their adveture in Afghanistan. So its an overall strategik vaccume where every body has supporters .

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

The soviets failed because they were engaged in a gurilla war which was supported by the US by all means. More ever the main motivation for the gurillas was JEHAD against a non Islamic Army which is absent in the gurillas fighting in sawat. So that war cannot be compared to whats hapening in sawat. What is the real source of motivation for the Talibans in fighting against Pakistan Army i guess its the dollars and the arms supplied by the crossborder players. You cant compare that with JEHAD. Moreever the US itself is getting bogged down in Afghanistan so till when they will continue to fuel the millitants in Pakistan despite getting boged down by the Talibans in Afghanistan.

The US is not wining in Afghanistan either and the group which is used as an attack against Pakistan is also used by other parties to attack the US forces in Afghanistan. And those groups are not loyal to US also. The Russians will make the US pay even a more bitter price then they paid during their adveture in Afghanistan. So its an overall strategik vaccume where every body has supporters .

 

[S-2]

"...till when they will continue to fuel the millitants in Pakistan despite getting boged down by the Talibans in Afghanistan."

Your comments are even less valuable. Let me see if I understand you. We've sent $100m in civil aid for your IDPs and are in the process of approving $1.5B in aid for this next year and $15B over ten years but are also AIDING the militants in Pakistan?

Just on the face of that modest point, H2O3C4Nitrogen, I'd conclude you haven't a clue either. Further, I'd suspect that you've some engrained anti-American bias that compels you to refer to Afghanistan and America without reference to the efforts of forty other nations. Your attempts to personalize the experience as solely American already leaves you holding an empty bag of knowledge while pointing to a narrative and agenda not meant to dispense insight but, instead, dissemblance.

Provide your proof of overt assistance to the Pakistani militants in SWAT or withdraw into ignomy.

 

[Bill Longley]

"...till when they will continue to fuel the millitants in Pakistan despite getting boged down by the Talibans in Afghanistan."

Your comments are even less valuable. Let me see if I understand you. We've sent $100m in civil aid for your IDPs and are in the process of approving $1.5B in aid for this next year and $15B over ten years but are also AIDING the militants in Pakistan?

Just on the face of that modest point, H2O3C4Nitrogen, I'd conclude you haven't a clue either. Further, I'd suspect that you've some engrained anti-American bias that compels you to refer to Afghanistan and America without reference to the efforts of forty other nations. Your attempts to personalize the experience as solely American already leaves you holding an empty bag of knowledge while pointing to a narrative and agenda not meant to dispense insight but, instead, dissemblance.

Provide your proof of overt assistance to the Pakistani militants in SWAT or withdraw into ignomy.

to learn about what is US of A
plz see faurenheit 911 and read Rouge state: guide to worlds only super power" by willium blum who is ex offical of US govt

world hate US for its policies and you innocent americans dont see them

 

[S-2]

"...world hate US for its policies and you innocent americans dont see them"

We'll count on seasoned pros like you, Bill, to lend us the necessary insights.

Thanks.

 

[zubair723]

The soviets failed because they were engaged in a gurilla war which was supported by the US by all means. More ever the main motivation for the gurillas was JEHAD against a non Islamic Army which is absent in the gurillas fighting in sawat. So that war cannot be compared to whats hapening in sawat. What is the real source of motivation for the Talibans in fighting against Pakistan Army i guess its the dollars and the arms supplied by the crossborder players. You cant compare that with JEHAD. Moreever the US itself is getting bogged down in Afghanistan so till when they will continue to fuel the millitants in Pakistan despite getting boged down by the Talibans in Afghanistan.

The US is not wining in Afghanistan either and the group which is used as an attack against Pakistan is also used by other parties to attack the US forces in Afghanistan. And those groups are not loyal to US also. The Russians will make the US pay even a more bitter price then they paid during their adveture in Afghanistan. So its an overall strategik vaccume where every body has supporters .

All guerilla resistances have similarities. But in this case US is finding itself not just engaged in a 'territorial' conflict. Loosing in AFGHANISTAN will be loosing everywhere .....with AFGHANISTAN gone, PAKISTAN will follow & only US knows where it will end for them

 

[S-2]

"...only US knows where it will end for them..."

Disneyworld. Everything ends in Disneyworld. All roads lead there.

 

[zubair723]

"...only US knows where it will end for them..."

Disneyworld. Everything ends in Disneyworld. All roads lead there.

Well as they say...'Be careful what you wish for'

 

[ajpirzada]

i would agree to one thing. US has successfuly shifted the battlefield from afghanistan to pakistan. same happened durin vietnam war when war was taken to combodia. combodia was also a front line ally and today US might not even know where it is on the wrold map. the only difference is that our army is relatively stronger.
i would still say withdraw from this war on terror and deal with these talibans in pakistan on our own. crush them all but become neutral to wats happenin in afghanistan.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Your comments are even less valuable. Let me see if I understand you. We've sent $100m in civil aid for your IDPs and are in the process of approving $1.5B in aid for this next year and $15B over ten years but are also AIDING the militants in Pakistan?

Just on the face of that modest point, H2O3C4Nitrogen, I'd conclude you haven't a clue either. Further, I'd suspect that you've some engrained anti-American bias that compels you to refer to Afghanistan and America without reference to the efforts of forty other nations. Your attempts to personalize the experience as solely American already leaves you holding an empty bag of knowledge while pointing to a narrative and agenda not meant to dispense insight but, instead, dissemblance.

Provide your proof of overt assistance to the Pakistani militants in SWAT or withdraw into ignomy.

The aid is an asymtric way of engagement .
The aid keeps the corridor of hope open.
The aid dosent lets the seventh largest army find itself being cornered at a dead end and then let it think to take DRASTIC MEASURES.


And with all due respect sir the whole Pakistani Media is showing the images of the wepons being captured from the millitants are either mainly of Indian genre or of US . They have the most sophisticated communication system . And the your general is sayin that more millitants are crossing the border in to Pakistan.
PLZ eloborate where the hell they are getting American Weponary from ?

And i have no grudje against the America . You guys are our bigest trade partner. However if your nation continues to Lookafter our enemy in Afghanistan and uses it to wage proxies from our westren border and continues to point fingers at the security of our Nuclear Arsenal then yes i will stand up to you and i will fight you .

 

[Zob]

se the problem currently is that most muslims...despise the US....not the political leadership OFCOURSE but the general public opinon from EGYPT to Pakistan hate the US!!!

now even if the US has no bad intentions against the muslims it is still seen as a buddy of ISRAEL in the arab world & in pakistan it is seen as a danger to pakistan's soverginity.....

the US needs to shift peoples opinion by its actions before it can seriously have support of all the muslims of the region......

just aid makes the people despise the US more because they see all their grievences because of direct or indrect actions done by the US....

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

the US needs to shift peoples opinion by its actions before it can seriously have support of all the muslims of the region......

just aid makes the people despise the US more because they see all their grievences because of direct or indrect actions done by the US....

The most favourable actions would be to close down the indian consulates in Afghanistan which are the main sponcers of terror in Pakistan .
Another thing would be instead of giving AID why not engage in a trade of mutual benifit.

I remember once when our Army was fightin the Soviets and US provided our Airforce the F-16s every body in Pakistan thought that US is our best Ally and people use to have stickers of American Flag with those F-16s on thier cars and buses. But when the soviets withdrew the US throwed us in their backyard and the incidents like General ZIA's Plan crash and Pressler amendments really turned the public opinion against america.
If the Americans would'nt have deserted us at that moment i am 200% sure that the results of this war would have been compleetely different.