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Disturbing narrative developing in the #US for #Pakistan.

And the Americans have been croaking since 2001 when that traitor Musharaf opened the door and let them loose in Afghanistan. If anything Pakistan has been shafted and has reason to complain not the Americans.
 
if there are facts that contradict the official version please let them out
Pakistan is in a better position than anyone to contradict the American official version

For the record I would have liked the press to see Osama's dead body
Abbottabad Commission Report is the most credible piece of information (regarding OBL) from Pakistan - it is a strictly judiciary-based inquiry and it cross-verified large chunks of information from American sources for the same; sources that are not books but actual disclosures from people who were directly involved in Operation Neptune Spear.

Does it surprise you that this report is still not public knowledge?

OBL's body was not shown because his head was partly blown off and even the remainder of his body was mutilated. His identity was re-confirmed through DNA testing.
 
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That is the Indian mentality, we dont measure Pakistan and US versus India alone. We have expats there we need money sent back home, we have education needs. In the grand scheme of things Pakistan was first in 1960 when the US needed an ally, back then it was two powers controlling the world; today its three or more. Thankfully our leadership has figured that out much later than yours did, but more importantly; they have their ego at the door for the first time.. yours still has not.
Neither has your population, ironically.. Pakistan is becoming what India was in the late 90's and early 2000s..sensible and interested in getting more perspectives, while Indians are becoming Pakistan in the early 2000s, angry, extremist and self obsessed.

There is a Huge difference though

The Size of the Economy which now accords us the power to play with the BIG boys
on the High Table

Whereas in the 90s we were focussed on getting our economy right

Pakistan's economy was bad in the 90s but is much worse now

Your need for external aid is only growing every year

That is why the Americans say only one thing

You took money from us and still betray us

And if and when US gets tough with you ; they only have to hurt you economically

Iran like sanctions are very far away

Just the IMF refusing you a loan in 2019 will reveal your real strength and stamina

How long will you keep punching above your weight
 
The more important question. Let's suppose the Americans go ahead with their kill switches, what will this mean for their reliability as a credible arms supplier?



.


Who said they willdo it openly ? A "kill switch" could be just mssiles missing 60 or 70% of their targets..., Two or tree jets havng engine problems while flyi g far away from bases...or better he fly by wire system become more restrictive while escaping a mssle leading to a kill Whocould be able to say it was due to kill switch ?
 
There is a Huge difference though

The Size of the Economy which now accords us the power to play with the BIG boys
on the High Table

Whereas in the 90s we were focussed on getting our economy right

Pakistan's economy was bad in the 90s but is much worse now

Your need for external aid is only growing every year

That is why the Americans say only one thing

You took money from us and still betray us

And if and when US gets tough with you ; they only have to hurt you economically

Iran like sanctions are very far away

Just the IMF refusing you a loan in 2019 will reveal your real strength and stamina

How long will you keep punching above your weight
As long as it needs regardless of you burning up inside with hatred and twisting whatever you can find against Pakistan. Please do not quote me again you piece of bigoted hateful turd.
 
We don't accept UN inspectors, So no reason of blocking on our side. All other things you have mentioned are similar or more grave in Baluchistan and are widely recorded & circulated in all reputed newspapers/channels or do you think Baluchistan is not in Pakistan or They are not human with human rights!!!

I am just replying to your off topic rants!!!
Bullshit. Who h is why UN has free access to in Baluchistan and not in IOK. No news of internet blocking or impostiton of curfews like in IOK

@waz @Emmie
Post reported for constantly going off topic
 
Abbottabad Commission Report is the most credible piece of information (regarding OBL) from Pakistan - it is a strictly judiciary-based inquiry and it cross-verified large chunks of information from American sources for the same; sources that are not books but actual disclosures from people who were directly involved in Operation Neptune Spear.

Does it surprise you that this report is still not public knowledge?

OBL's body was not shown because his head was partly blown off and even the remainder of his body was mutilated. His identity was re-confirmed through DNA testing.

It would put an end to some of the conspiracy theories to have someone look through his body
 
The US is too invested in Pakistan at this point to walk away, if they didn't change their approach after OBL was found being harboured by the Pak govt then nothing will cause them to change.


What is there to refute? Pakistan didn't/doesn't actively harbour the world's most wanted men? Pakistan doesn't fund and train designated terror organisations?


Evidence and facts are not on Pakistan's side.

Remind me for how many years 9/11 lived in america and where did they train themselves and how they wer eable to sneak through knives ?

Pakistani State funds Terror organizations ? This is a news to me. Provide factual evidence Pakistani state funds and train terror organization.

The US is too invested in Pakistan at this point to walk away, if they didn't change their approach after OBL was found being harboured by the Pak govt then nothing will cause them to change.


What is there to refute? Pakistan didn't/doesn't actively harbour the world's most wanted men? Pakistan doesn't fund and train designated terror organisations?


Evidence and facts are not on Pakistan's side.

Remind me for how many years 9/11 lived in america and where did they train themselves and how they wer eable to sneak through knives ?

Pakistani State funds Terror organizations ? This is a news to me. Provide factual evidence Pakistani state funds and train terror organization.
 
I don't think the onus is on Pakistan. The Americans are free to believe whatever they like, but so are we free to dispute the events. If this gives them closure so be it.

Americans have a story out that makes the ISI look incompetent or complicit. If you are fine with those narratives what do I care ? After all you are from "Netherlands"
 
Pakistan is no man's land. You are too big to get decimated like Syria. You are too small and too weak to influence others - China, India, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia and USA. The only ones in the crossfire are the Afghans. This is not going to change for the next 20-30 years
No state is too big for US to devastate - should it go down that route (God forbid). I have openly stated before and I will repeat it here: should US and Pakistan fight a full-scale war - Pakistan would be history. Therefore, it is the responsibility of every Pakistani to avert a major tragedy in the region.

Don't mind confidence of some Pakistani members here - they are often in emotional frame of mind and mostly reacting to American threats. Understandable.

Pak - US relations are far from perfect but they are a reality and both have benefited from it in different ways. This relationship is currently on a downward spiral but it can re-bounce.

My complaint is that Pakistan does not have a sound foreign policy for the US and this needs to change. I am rooting for total revamp of Pakistani foreign policy vis-a-vis US and WEST in general.

Pakistan and US - both are invested in Afghanistan and cannot escape from this reality. Both need to sit down and revisit their terms of engagement for this matter instead of engaging in needless blame-game exercise.

Blame-game exercise will benefit no one.
 
That is the Indian mentality, we dont measure Pakistan and US versus India alone. We have expats there we need money sent back home, we have education needs. In the grand scheme of things Pakistan was first in 1960 when the US needed an ally, back then it was two powers controlling the world; today its three or more. Thankfully our leadership has figured that out much later than yours did, but more importantly; they have their ego at the door for the first time.. yours still has not.
Neither has your population, ironically.. Pakistan is becoming what India was in the late 90's and early 2000s..sensible and interested in getting more perspectives, while Indians are becoming Pakistan in the early 2000s, angry, extremist and self obsessed.

you made the Senatorial visit as an example of Pakistan's relevance. Otherwise I could care less about US Presidential visits.

Indians & India is pretty much the same. Not much has changed.
 
Americans have a story out that makes the ISI look incompetent or complici
It seriously doesn't matter. The reality is that even after 12years they're getting roasted by rag tag militia proves who is incompetent and who is not
 
I am not simplifying, just stating my opinion based on interactions with certain people. Being added to GSP+ scheme is not really achievement in my eyes. It doesn't show any influence of Pakistani diplomacy or great breakthrough in providing Pakistan some great economical leverage.

The GSP+ is designed to promote Labour rights and improve economic conditions etc, something that's part of the E.U's own agenda. All you have to do is sign up and ratify a few conditions. Please don't tell me you take this as part of some great achievement. Because I don't.

With regards to comparison with American aid, why do we accept it then? Our military gets regular reimbursements for services provided. Why does the military allow these conditions to develop where they have to accept reimbursements? And it is definitely not the aid that allows the U.S to project power, when Musharraf joined the WOT, it wasn't because of issues with AID corrupting our elite.

This is the perception that the world had in the after math of 9/11: We were one of only two countries who had supported and recognized a regime which was believed by most neutral observers to have a pitiful record on protecting the rights of its citizens, had provided shelter to thousands of extremists and exported global terrorism and committed crimes against humanity. It had sheltered a man who was responsible for the death of thousands of civilians. Tell me why our establishment chose such cretins as our best buddies and providers of strategic depth, when they never actually bothered to solve the border issue and refused to accept the Durand line?

Also, tell me why Musharraf was cowed by the Americans then? Was it Aid that the Americans threatened to stop? Which of these western allied nations stood with Pakistan when this happened? And what was the reasons why they sided with America over Pakistan on this matter? So we not only loose the good will of the international community, we have to join a war that kills thousands of Pakistanis, the regime we supported never actually sorted out any border issues, on the contrary, the ideology we supported was used to rouse up misguided people against our own state. Is this an achievement?

And now, what is the perception of the world in the aftermath of OBL's death: We either purposely allowed OBL in this country or our state institutions are such failures that they did not that the world's most wanted man was living for years in a garrison town. Please tell me which perception you prefer? Because on both, we are screwed. We as a nation have been labelled as state sponsors of terrorism, and I see nothing being done by the state of Pakistan to rectify this. Well nothing apart from saying, "don't dare to threaten us, or we will join Russia and China". Seriously? None of these countries are going to fight the U.S on our behalf.

As I said previously, I am not stating why America is doing what it is doing, I am asking what have our actions being apart from knee-jerk reactions and empty chest thumping? What have we achieved in Afghanistan? What have we achieved in Kashmir? What is the standing of Pakistan in the world today? Why does our establishment continue to make decisions that continue to make things worse for Pakistan and will anyone ever be held accountable for all the follies that have been accomplished by their actions?



No disagreements here.

The GSP+ status is a huge achievement for Pakistan. Especially given that the EU awarded this to Pakistan because we incurred huge losses during the US war in Afghanistan. GSP+ wasn't given to Pakistan to improve labour conditions blah blah blah. You obviously are unaware of the background of this deal or are just in denial. Not every country gains the GSP+ status. Otherwise the EU would be handing them out like hot cakes to many developing nations to improve their labour conditions etc. The EU nations lose revenue.

You have no arguments about reimbursements. The Americans seek our supply routes. It is not the other way round. Hence they have to pay for the sevices incurred. Such deals are made all over the world. Pakistan is not an exception. Should Pakistan allow US goods to reach Afghanistan? In hindsight I would obviously say NO.

Pakistan shouldn't accept US aid. End of story. It is attached with conditions which are detrimental for the country. I'm against accepting military and economic aid from the US. Those who accept the aid are 100% at fault. Aid certainly corrupts people at influential positions. It is an incentive meant to bribe politicians and elites. The results are clear as crystal. Corruption and decay at every level.

Don't give me this "world"
BS argument. The whole world also knows who created and masterminded OBL and other Jihadi elements during the Cold War. The same elements which went on to destroy not only Afghanistan, but also harmed Pakistan. The world also knows who turned a blind eye after the Cold War ended and left everyone high and dry. Pakistan made the sacrifices by welcoming millions of Afghan refugees. Everyone knows what we got in return. All courtesy of America.

America is the same country which has made a habit of creating and sponsoring various militant outfits throughout the world. Their creation ISIS being the latest. Before pointing fingers at Pakistan this "world" of yours needs to have a very deep look at its own behavior. Pakistan didn't accuse Iraq on the false premise of possessing WMDs. Pakistan didn't destroy a whole nation in a quest to satisfy its ego. Pakistan didn't wreck the Middle East. Pakistan didn't create ISIS. This so-called world of yours only consists of the US and India which accuse Pakistan on a daily basis. We may include the puppet regime of Afghanistan into the fold which is installed by no other than the Americans.

You talk about strategic depth, but fully know that the US has allowed India to operate terror consulates in Afghanistan which attack Pakistani civilians and stir violence in Baluchistan at will. Don't talk to me about strategic depth when all neighboring countries have meddled in Afghanistan for decades and their own gains. You single out Pakistan when every darn nation in the neighborhood and beyond has meddled in Afghanistan. This includes daddy America. Scapegoating Pakistan won't change this fact one bit.

We don't give a hoot about Afghans and their Durand line concerns. The borders are drawn and that is the end of story. There is nothing discuss here. Not now not back then.

You know damned well why Pakistan supported the Taliban. The world didn't share a border with Afghanistan and neither did America. We did. Also, who were you going to support if not the Taliban? The Northern Alliance who rape boys and kill women? Who do you want to reason with in Afghanistan? If the Northern Alliance was a better alternative, why is Afghanistan today under their rule still in a quagmire? Don't give me this simplistic view. The world is complicated. You have to make choices. India made their choice to support child molesters who are in charge of Afghanistan today. At least during the Taliban rule Afghanistan was better off in some aspects. India has undermined Pakistan's security through Afghanistan. Pakistan had no choice, but to choose a side.

There is another world perception which disputes both of your theories. We helped the Americans catch OBL, but they backstabbed us to take the full credit.

Which perception do I choose now? Let me lay it out for you:

America and its so-called "world" can go to hell. We aren't siding with anyone anymore. We are not going to do more or halt our cooperation with China. We know this hypocritical world you talk about. We saw it in Iraq. We have seen it in Syria. We have seen it in Afghanistan. What world are you taking about? The one that backstabs you the moment you look the other way?

We are going to work with a few allies that we have, but at least we will build on a working relationship. We are not going to be blackmailed, bullied or lied to. That is what I want. You are free to make your own choice. I'm not going to cower and shake. My choice is firm.
 
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No state is too big for US to devastate - should it go down that route (God forbid). I have openly stated before and I will repeat it here: should US and Pakistan fight a full-scale war - Pakistan would be history. Therefore, it is the responsibility of every Pakistani to avert a major tragedy in the region.

Don't mind confidence of some Pakistani members here - they are often in emotional frame of mind and mostly reacting to American threats. Understandable.

Pak - US relations are far from perfect but they are a reality and both have benefited from it in different ways. This relationship is currently on a downward spiral but it can re-bounce.

My complaint is that Pakistan does not have a sound foreign policy for the US and this needs to change. I am rooting for total revamp of Pakistani foreign policy vis-a-vis US and WEST in general.

Pakistan and US - both are invested in Afghanistan and cannot escape from this reality. Both need to sit down and revisit their terms of engagement for this matter instead of engaging in needless blame-game exercise.

Blame-game exercise will benefit no one.

I generally agree avoiding a military clash with USA is a desirable goal for any country.

USA has been cautious attacking large countries - Iran has gotten away with a lot more because of her size.
In that sense Pakistan has some leeway.

And the Americans have been croaking since 2001 when that traitor Musharaf opened the door and let them loose in Afghanistan. If anything Pakistan has been shafted and has reason to complain not the Americans.

Did Musharraf have a choice in 2001 ? Personally I think he saved the Pakistani nation from disaster.
 

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