Dishonesty about Indian technological development

[Han Patriot]

Spewing BS about 'indigenous' when most of the non-hull components were all either (historically) all imported if they were any good, or just local substandard crap. A history of dismal defence failures does not become a shining history just because you are a revisionist.

Yeah - your 'localization' efforts are such a rip-roaring success that they are being cancelled.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/12/has-...-carrier-based-light-combat-aircraft-project/

And don't bark about GRSE. You had to dump money there because you had nowhere else in India cheap enough labor-cost-wise to produce ships. People in that city will work for almost nothing sometimes.

What are the modernization 'efforts'?

Other than more Tarpaulin/plastic sheet tents (sorry - fabrication halls ) - that is....

It is just ironic that you call a dump like GRSE the shining example of Indian shipbuilding and try to compare it to Bangladeshi yards - which is let's face it, is an LDC country. That is your benchmark to feel 'better'?

@Han Patriot , how does this compare to Chinese yards?

Well due to extensive commercial shipbuilding experience, (most of our yards are dual use facilities), the production planning and efficiency is high. Workers work night shifts to complete ships on time. I can confidently say all subsystems are produced domestically, therefore there are minimal delays if any. If you check the Indian effort, their delays are coming from inefficient production and also delays of subsystems. Chinese production speed is almost double the Indian one.

 

[Bilal9]

Well due to extensive commercial shipbuilding experience, (most of our yards are dual use facilities), the production planning and efficiency is high. Workers work night shifts to complete ships on time. I can confidently say all subsystems are produced domestically, therefore there are minimal delays if any. If you check the Indian effort, their delays are coming from inefficient production and also delays of subsystems. Chinese production speed is almost double the Indian one.

Thanks for your valuable comment. This echoes my personal account from friends' reports working in export-based industries in Bangladesh for the last two decades, whether apparel, electronics or shipbuilding. Work continues in three shifts with three different crews, to meet customer deadlines. The philosophy in India for efficiency may not be that rigorous. I could be wrong though.

 

[Han Patriot]

Thanks for your valuable comment. This echoes my personal account from friends' reports working in export-based industries in Bangladesh for the last two decades, whether apparel, electronics or shipbuilding. Work continues in three shifts with three different crews, to meet customer deadlines. The philosophy in India for efficiency may not be that rigorous. I could be wrong though.

Those Indian monoliths are still stuck with 1950s work ethics. Look at the condition of their yards and compare them to clean and lean Chinese yards. Chinese yards use Korean yards as benchmarks, and their yards are not far away from China, we have people working in their yards who bring back new and efficient production methods.

 

[gslv mk3]

Stop BSing us. GRSE was far worse than this before 2013. Before Ramboll showed the great Supa Pawa how to do modular builds. In 2017.

Idiot, who told you that GRSE is the first Indian yard to adopt modular techniques ? Heard of CSL ? Pipavav ? And if you forgot, modular shipbuilding doesn't mean this

@damiendehorn see what these Sanghis are barking about?

Had trouble identifying your own yards ? That's your great Khulna Shipyard.

This is way too hi-tech now, for LDCs that is....

Lies and more cherry picking lies.

Yep, UN is a liar while LDC trolls aren't.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/composite/trends

You forgot 'indigenous' photon death rays.

Nothing can beat Bangladesh defence ministry's own, Bangladesh Machine Tool Factory's 'indigenous rice thrasher'- such super duper weapons are produced 'like sausages' in BD.

LDC logic- 'It is impossible for a country which have built it's own 8000 tonne destroyers & exo atmospheric BMD interceptors to build a larger destroyers with BMD capabilities but it is easy for a country which haven't build anything other than 600 tonne missile boats to build stealth frigates'

Wrong!!!!
We are getting several existing 053H3s from PLAN fleet.
Then we are building six stealth guided missile destroyers of a NEW design.

Is the Bangladeshi definition for 'several' a pair? That too two lightly armed frigates...

You can daydream about 'Farces Goal 2030' though.- stealth destroyers...

Even as late as 2015 - Your media (Times of India) was salivating at the hint of Bangladesh giving naval shipbuilding business to GRSE - Woh bheekh manga.

Yeah I believe it. GRSE, which has an annual turnover of $300 million & a order book of $4 billion was begging for puny Bangladeshi orders. Tell these stories to gullible Bangladeshis, they might believe you.

Your media went as far as publishing that Bangladesh did not have any yards.

And none of your yards have build anything more than this 600 tonne boat in defense shipbuilding, so much for your boasting & bashing.

 

[Bilal9]

Those Indian monoliths are still stuck with 1950s work ethics. Look at the condition of their yards and compare them to clean and lean Chinese yards. Chinese yards use Korean yards as benchmarks, and their yards are not far away from China, we have people working in their yards who bring back new and efficient production methods.

Good point.

If you bring these points up with Indians - they think its anti-India propaganda.

But I've been to India many times and the attitude that I see over there (increasingly defiant and deluded, as well as on PDF Indian posters here - of the communal kind) is that there seems to be two Indias (Industrial operations in India in particular), one that exists in their theoretical fantasies which claims that almost every factory/product/service is clean, organized, documented and compliant with whatever international norms there are (ISO 9000 and DNV, GL etc.), and the other is the actual reality as seen in person (promising one thing during production but delivering something deficient/sub-standard in actuality or even under-delivering), which is rather painful for them to acknowledge, or worse yet - change.

No accountability will be taken if you get cheated in an export business deal - CAVEAT EMPTOR. It was your responsibility for not being smart or shady enough. Indians actually don't care, their primary responsibility is for feeding their well-protected home market with their own sub-par products. Who cares if their products suck internationally - they always have their home market to fall back on. In an open Global world, this is increasingly getting difficult to sustain however.

Meaning who wants to change something if they can conveniently hide cheatery using bluster/rudeness (as seen on this thread) and keep up the charade?

 

[gslv mk3]

But I've been to India many times and the attitude that I see over there (increasingly defiant and deluded, as well as on PDF posters here) is that there seems to be two Indias (Industrial operations in India in particular), one that exists in their theoretical fantasies which claims that almost every factory/product is clean, organized and compliant with whatever international norms there are (ISO 9000 and DNV, GL etc.), and the other is the actual reality as seen in person (promising one thing during production but delivering something deficient/sub-standard in actuality or even under-delivering), which is rather painful for them to acknowledge, or worse yet - change.
Indians actually don't care, their primary responsibility is for feeding their well-protected home market with their own sub-par products. Who cares if their products suck internationally - they always have their home market to fall back on.

Usual lies- by the same liar who claimed that Bangladesh is three decades ahead of India in 'smart manufacturing'. Come back when Bangladeshis can export at least one car to a developed market...

Ford's new EcoSport SUV will be imported from India - USA Today

And not surprisingly enough, Indian products have the largest market penetration in Bangladesh.

Indians actually don't care, their primary responsibility is for feeding their well-protected home market with their own sub-par products.

Quite rich, coming from Bangladeshis...

ISO 9001 quality certificates/bn PPP$ GDP:
BD: 0.8
PAK: 2.7
IND: 4.5

https://www.globalinnovationindex.org/gii-2017-report

Here is another example of @Bilal9's lies for the uninitiated...

Indians have no clue how big the Bangladesh Pharma sector is compared to the size of our country. It is a large part of our export portfolio. In fact we have exported to most of India's traditional markets and beating them at their own game.

The reality is much different...

Bangladeshi medicine exporters brought home $72.6 million in the last fiscal year.

http://bdnews24.com/business/2016/01/24/pharmaceutical-exports-from-bangladesh-rise-sharply

While India's pharma exports were $16 billion during the same period.

Now this is called 'beating someone in their own game'.

 

[Bilal9]

Idiot, who told you that GRSE is the first Indian yard to adopt modular techniques ? Heard of CSL ? Pipavav ? And if you forgot, modular shipbuilding doesn't mean this

Had trouble identifying your own yards ? That's your great Khulna Shipyard.

View attachment 411950
This is way too hi-tech now, for LDCs that is....

Yep, UN is a liar while LDC trolls aren't.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/composite/trends

View attachment 411939

Nothing can beat Bangladesh defence ministry's own, Bangladesh Machine Tool Factory's 'indigenous rice thrasher'- such super duper weapons are produced 'like sausages' in BD.

View attachment 411940

LDC logic- 'It is impossible for a country which have built it's own 8000 tonne destroyers & exo atmospheric BMD interceptors to build a larger destroyers with BMD capabilities but it is easy for a country which haven't build anything other than 600 tonne missile boats to build stealth frigates'

Is the Bangladeshi definition for 'several' a pair? That too two lightly armed frigates...

You can daydream about 'Farces Goal 2030' though.- stealth destroyers...



Yeah I believe it. GRSE, which has an annual turnover of $300 million & a order book of $4 billion was begging for puny Bangladeshi orders. Tell these stories to gullible Bangladeshis, they might believe you.

And none of your yards have build anything more than this 600 tonne boat in defense shipbuilding, so much for your boasting & bashing.

Thanks for your pointless rambling rant - which pretty much fell on deaf ears here.

No Bangladesh defence purchase will ever be made from Indian factories and yards, I can triple-assure you.

Your chest-beating everyday is sealing that deal.

 

[gslv mk3]

Thanks for your pointless rambling rant - which pretty much fell on deaf ears here.

No Bangladesh defence purchase will ever be made from Indian factories and yards, I can triple-assure you.

Your chest-beating everyday is sealing that deal.

OMG, look who is talking about ranting...

An troll who started a whole thread to post his pointless ramblings...

And of course, there is no point in debating with a liar.

Don't worry, we are not much interested in selling anything to an LDC that cannot afford anything without soft loans/aid...

 

[Bilal9]

Usual lies- by the same liar who claimed that Bangladesh is three decades ahead of India in 'smart manufacturing'. Come back when Bangladeshis can export at least one car to a developed market...

Ford's new EcoSport SUV will be imported from India - USA Today

And not surprisingly enough, Indian products have the largest market penetration in Bangladesh.



Quite rich, coming from Bangladeshis...

ISO 9001 quality certificates/bn PPP$ GDP:
BD: 0.8
PAK: 2.7
IND: 4.5

https://www.globalinnovationindex.org/gii-2017-report

Here is another example of @Bilal9's lies for the uninitiated...



The reality is much different...

Bangladeshi medicine exporters brought home $72.6 million in the last fiscal year.

http://bdnews24.com/business/2016/01/24/pharmaceutical-exports-from-bangladesh-rise-sharply

While India's pharma exports were $16 billion during the same period.

Now this is called 'beating someone in their own game'.

No Indian Kanjoosi (flimsy+miserly) passenger car found any sort of a market in Bangladesh, Bangladeshi consumers are far more discerning than to buy 800cc disposable Marutis or Tatas, no matter how cheap they are. Bangladeshis aren't price buyers like buyers in India. Heavy Commercial vehicles and motorcycles have a market maybe (for the time being) because,

1. They are cheap
2. We don't produce our own because of small market size

However that situation is already changing with Chinese participation - Good Luck with that.

Indians are blaring their trumpet that their little under-1000 cc micro cars are world beaters in advanced market - but the Euro safety crash results don't seem to agree....

These are considered deathbeds-on-wheels in Europe. Euro citizens unfortunate enough to afford nothing safer, better check their insurance before they get in these contraptions to drive, if these qualify for insurance coverage that is....

Indian cars score zero in crash tests

Regarding Pharma exports, here is some evidence of Indian fraud and cheatery from their own media, really heartless treating poor African consumers like this (but these are Indian companies if you remember - no govt. oversight or action even today, everyone can be bought). The rot still exists, we in newer economies should steer clear of Indian practices and take lessons from China, Korea and other better-run governments.

http://fortune.com/2013/05/15/dirty-medicine/

http://www.thehindu.com/business/Industry/a-deception-most-foul/article4753453.ece

Also - here is India's contribution to the world, introduction of a antibiotic-resistant Superbug (connected with eff-ups of the Pharma industry antibiotic production in India). People die because there is no known antidote - yet.

https://thewire.in/100309/superbug-india/

https://thewire.in/73220/antimicrobial-resistance-mrsa-st672/

 

[gslv mk3]

You just cannot quit whining, can you ?

No Indian Kanjoosi (flimsy+miserly) passenger car found any sort of a market in Bangladesh, Bangladshi consumers are far more discerning than to buy 800cc disposable Marutis or Tatas. Heavy Commercial vehicles and motorcycles maybe (for the time being) because,

1. They are cheap
2. We don't produce our own because of small market size

However that situation is already changing with Chinese participation - Good Luck with that.

Your market size isn't small, it's way too small. Should I say 'LDC size' ?

''http://www.who.int/violence_injury_...ountry_profiles_combined_GSRRS2015_2.pdf?ua=1

So India has at least (since we are comparing data with 2 year difference in B'desh favour):

- 70 times the number of light 4 wheelers (cars/vans etc).
- 86 times the number of 2/3 wheelers (motorbikes, autorickshaws etc)
- 29 times the number of heavy trucks
- 28 times the number of buses

For a population about 8 times more. (Thanks @Nilgiri for digging this out)

Your annual car sales are around 20,000 (mostly second hand Japanese clunkers) & motorcycle sales figure is just 250,000. I wonder why Chinese or Indians would bother about such a small market.

And what happened to the great Walton, producing motorcycles in BD with declining market share ? 15,000 an year, that is.

2013 Vs 2015

And don't forget BMTF assembling 2 trucks a day from SKD kits.

Regarding Pharma exports, here is some evidence of Indian fraud and cheatery from their own media, really heartless treating poor African consumers like this (but these are Indian companies if you remember -

Yawn...please do cry some more while we export 220 times more than your little pharma industry

The US is the largest consumer of Indian pharmaceutical exported medicines followed by the UK.

 

[Bilal9]

Lies and more lies - smoke and mirrors, that's the Indian mantra.

Cheatery and fraud again....

http://thediplomat.com/2016/05/did-india-hide-a-failed-supersonic-missile-test/

 

[gslv mk3]

Quite funny, coming from a country which can't even make unguided rockets for itself.

Cheatery and fraud again....

And one 'supposed' failure is going to ruin the system ? See this & cry

Hit-to-Kill Successfully Demonstrated By DRDO’s PDV Interceptor

AAD Trials conducted until now. Thanks to @MilSpec for this.

1 > November 27, 2006, Wheeler Island
2 >December 6, 2007, Wheeler Island
3 >March 6, 2009 ,Wheeler Island
4 >March 14, 2010, postponed to next day due to Technical glitch in telemetry
5 >March 15, 2010 Test Aborted after Target missile malfunctioned.
6 > July 26, 2010, Last Trial test, Wheeler Island
7 > March 6, 2011, Production unit test.
8 >April 07,2015, Interceptor Test failure
9 > May 15 2016, AAD renamed Ashwin, test, Kalam island (Previously Wheeler Island),
10>March 1, 2017, Kalam island.

And here is THAAD missile testing history...for idiots.

Also, SM-3 ABM, standard armament for Arleigh Burke, Kongo, Atago & Ticonderoga class vessels.

US, Japan missile interception test fails

Indians are blaring their trumpet that their little under-1000 cc micro cars are world beaters in advanced market - but the Euro safety crash results don't seem to agree....

These are considered deathbeds-on-wheels in Europe. Euro citizens unfortunate enough to afford nothing safer, better check their insurance before they get in these contraptions to drive, if these qualify for insurance coverage that is....

Another lie from a pathological liar...

Indian cars exported to developed markets fulfill crash test norms there. Suzuki Baleno has a four star EuroNCAP rating.

https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/suzuki/baleno/24498

 

[Bilal9]

Suzuki Baleno has a four star EuroNCAP rating.

https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/suzuki/baleno/24498

Still no dice - Sabu.

Ain't no one in Bangladesh buying Indian BALenos, rest assured....

Go ahead - ask any Indian visiting Bangladesh, how many they sold there.....

 

[gslv mk3]

Still no dice - Sabu.

Ain't no one in Bangladesh buying Indian BALenos, rest assured....

Yeah sure, because the LDC can afford only 20,000 second hand clunkers an year...Don't worry, you'll be getting them some 15 years later from the Japanese... @Bombaywalla

Undernourished economy crying about lack of Indian cars in their market is quite something. As a I said earlier, we export 38 times the number of cars sold in BD every year & are quite content with not exporting our cars to such an LDC market.

 

[Bombaywalla]

Ain't no one in Bangladesh buying Indian BALenos, rest assured......

Of course not! You'd be buying, at the very minimum, 3+ year old 'JDM' Made-in-India Balenos. Give it some time; brand new cars aren't your thing.