Discuss PAK-IND air wars

[sidewinder]

wrong.

56-877
Lost on 07-09-1965 after a mid-air collision with IAF Mystere. F/L Amjad Hussein ejected.

there is no proof to back your claim.secondly after hitting the F-104,he also crashed and died.there have been claims that both air craft fired simultaneously.some say because of ground fire he got hit.one thing is clear in an aerial combat he showed his extreme professionalism and shoot down a much much superior air craft.
windjammer you always talk about aerial warfare lets be frank.PAF did their best and the IAF did their best(65,71) but surely the efforts of PAF were not good enough so they couldn't contain us.in 1971 war PAF's 63% sorties were defensive and IAF's 62% sorties were offensive.now what would you say about that.

 

[Frankenstein]

utter nonsense.first of all the pilots you mentioned here O.N. Kacher, A.B. Deveyya, and S.B. Bhagwat.A.B.DEVEYYA was the guy who was involved in raid over sargodha.
Sqn Ldr AB Devayya, MVC of 1 JTW shot down a Pakistani Starfighter over Sargodha airfield on 7 Sep 65 during the 1965 conflict. During the engagement his Mystere aircraft was hit by enemy ground fire. Sqn Ldr Devayya lost his life in the crash. He was awarded Maha Vir Chakra posthumously.as far as i know M.M.alam was flying F-86 sabres.do not put random names dude your making fun of yourself,i know your jealous but that doesn't mean you can write what ever you want.
what happened in the 1965 and 1971.if you think you had air superiority than why couldn't you defeat our ground forces.what happened in longewala?where was your air force when our hunters were having shooting practice.you talk about aerial warfare first go and learn more kid.and about MIG-21 i will give you a lesson next time.go and learn more.

Now you are denying the fact that M.M Alam hunted down 5 IAF pilots, how absurd

 

[honour]

This is most likely to be typo error. Mig-23 were not even introduced in 1965 by soviets themself.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ...When your nation is wrong its a typo fault....OK How can he mistake both mig-19 and mig-23 ??.....How he became a brig.......
Sorry....he must have been the brig...so as to give 1965 and 1971 results to you..............

well some quotes for you from Pakistani/neutral writers regarding 1971 air war....

"PAF losses were heavy and included 54 Sabres ", Stewart Wilson, North
American F-86 Sabre, p.58
[13] "by 14 December, the Indian air force had achieved alarming success " Maj.Gen
Shaukat Raza, The Pakistan Army 1966-71, p.166
[14] "While the enemy was free to fly over our territory , Air Marshal M. Rahim Khan
kept himself and his air force hidden during the co nflict. ", p.174, Lt.Gen. A.A.K Niazi,
The Betrayal of East Pakistan, Oxford University press, ISBN 0185777271

 

[sidewinder]

Now you are denying the fact that M.M Alam hunted down 5 IAF pilots, how absurd

absurd know! okay if you are crying so much lets accept it.but then how will you rate one of the biggest military disaster in the world"THE BATTLE OF LONGEWALA"..were was your air force ???
secondly my other question why in 1971 PAF's 63% sorties were defnsive??? ...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

there is no proof to back your claim.secondly after hitting the F-104,he also crashed and died.there have been claims that both air craft fired simultaneously.some say because of ground fire he got hit.one thing is clear in an aerial combat he showed his extreme professionalism and shoot down a much much superior air craft.

You are talking about 65 war right? where IAF claimed of destroying 70+ PAF fighter? huh bunch of pathological lairs.
And how is Indian claim more credible? Colliding in air with another fighter air craft by accident is no professionalism. Well that was the only thing left from 65 air war for Indians to celebrate about.

windjammer you always talk about aerial warfare lets be frank.PAF did their best and the IAF did their best(65,71) but surely the efforts of PAF were not good enough so they couldn't contain us.in 1971 war PAF's 63% sorties were defensive and IAF's 62% sorties were offensive.now what would you say about that.

And you expect PAF to fly twice as more offensive sorties with 4 times smaller fleet then IAF? If PAF had as many combat planes as IAF then IAF would have been whipped out.

 

[Windjammer]

utter nonsense.first of all the pilots you mentioned here O.N. Kacher, A.B. Deveyya, and S.B. Bhagwat.A.B.DEVEYYA was the guy who was involved in raid over sargodha.
Sqn Ldr AB Devayya, MVC of 1 JTW shot down a Pakistani Starfighter over Sargodha airfield on 7 Sep 65 during the 1965 conflict. During the engagement his Mystere aircraft was hit by enemy ground fire. Sqn Ldr Devayya lost his life in the crash. He was awarded Maha Vir Chakra posthumously.as far as i know M.M.alam was flying F-86 sabres.do not put random names dude your making fun of yourself,i know your jealous but that doesn't mean you can write what ever you want.
what happened in the 1965 and 1971.if you think you had air superiority than why couldn't you defeat our ground forces.what happened in longewala?where was your air force when our hunters were having shooting practice.you talk about aerial warfare first go and learn more kid.and about MIG-21 i will give you a lesson next time.go and learn more.

Put a sock in it, all the facts and figures were presented to your MOD, they didn't have the appetite to challenge or refute the claims and we have week end warriors like you playing arm pit music, save your nonsense , stand and deliver. like such.

Images of Sqn. Ldr. S V Bhutani's SU-7 going down as described in above detail.
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/2...hutanissu7.gif

 

[Myth_buster_1]

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ...When your nation is wrong its a typo fault....OK How can he mistake both mig-19 and mig-23 ??.....How he became a brig.......
Sorry....he must have been the brig...so as to give 1965 and 1971 results to you..............

well some quotes for you from Pakistani/neutral writers regarding 1971 air war....

"PAF losses were heavy and included 54 Sabres ", Stewart Wilson, North
American F-86 Sabre, p.58
[13] "by 14 December, the Indian air force had achieved alarming success " Maj.Gen
Shaukat Raza, The Pakistan Army 1966-71, p.166
[14] "While the enemy was free to fly over our territory , Air Marshal M. Rahim Khan
kept himself and his air force hidden during the co nflict. ", p.174, Lt.Gen. A.A.K Niazi,
The Betrayal of East Pakistan, Oxford University press, ISBN 0185777271

"The Chief of Indian Air Force could no longer ensure the safety of Indian air space. A well known Indian journalist, Mr Frank Moraes, in a talk from All-india radio, also admitted that IAF had suffered severe losses and it was no use hiding the fact and India should be prepared for more losses...."

Indonesian Herald
September 11, 1965.

 

[sidewinder]

Put a sock in it, all the facts and figures were presented to your MOD, they didn't have the appetite to challenge or refute the claims and we have week end warriors like you playing arm pit music, save your nonsense , stand and deliver. like such.

Images of Sqn. Ldr. S V Bhutani's SU-7 going down as described in above detail.
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/2...hutanissu7.gif

Air operations
Main article: East Pakistan Air Operations, 1971
After the initial preemptive strike, PAF adopted a defensive stance in response to the Indian retaliation. As the war progressed, the Indian Air Force continued to battle the PAF over conflict zones, but the number of sorties flown by the PAF gradually decreased day-by-day.The Indian Air Force flew 4,000 sorties while its counterpart, the PAF offered little in retaliation, partly because of the paucity of non-Bengali technical personnel. This lack of retaliation has also been attributed to the deliberate decision of the PAF High Command to cut its losses as it had already incurred huge losses in the conflict.The PAF also did not intervene during the Indian Navy's raid on Pakistani naval port city of Karachi.
In the east, the small air contingent of Pakistan Air Force No. 14 Sqn was destroyed, putting the Dhaka airfield out of commission and resulting in Indian air superiority in the east.

gun camera shows two sabres meet their end over boyra.

captured pakistani pilots.The Two Pakistani Pilots Parvez Mehdi Qureshi and Khaleel Ahmed who were captured after baling out.

 

[Areesh]

This is my last post on this particular subject since you are not getting it even after repeated attempts



The link that windjammer posted in contrast to Indian claims said "it is unclear if F-104 was given to PAF by Jordan"...which means he could not provide a credible source to refute Indian claims...However the link(neutral) that i posted clearly said that F-104 were given to PAF....Do you see the difference??? I have a source which is neutral and is supporting Indian claims about F-104...You have a source which is neither refuting my claim nor is supporting your claim...Do you see the difference???

Moreover look at Growler post above...even he is saying that you did get F-104...Now if you have respect leave this particular topic in our debate right here...




...They are unclear about the exact numbers of losses...All they know is there were significant losses as admitted by Pak(according to them) and possible reason that f-104 were not used after 71(they were retired)...the link i give is US source who keeps a record of how many f-104 were built and operated by whom and how they performed against russian counterparts and it is not their job to find out exact kills...All they are interested in knowing is how their fighter performed against their then arch rivals...



I did not answer??? Man what is wrong with you?? I started posting in this thread way before you...Since we started on 1971 i wanted to stick to it...How can you conclude anything if you just keep posting from 1965 to 1971 ...what will we achieve??? Keep you 1965 findings with you...and for now concentrate on 1971...Once we are done with 1971 we will talk about 1965...Did i say anything different then the original reply i gave??? So now explain how did i jumped to 1971??? Are you just posting for the sake of it ???

The link that windjammer posted in contrast to Indian claims said "it is unclear if F-104 was given to PAF by Jordan"...which means he could not provide a credible source to refute Indian claims...However the link(neutral) that i posted clearly said that F-104 were given to PAF....Do you see the difference??? I have a source which is neutral and is supporting Indian claims about F-104...You have a source which is neither refuting my claim nor is supporting your claim...Do you see the difference???

First of all the link you are providing isn't very neutral. Many of it's findings are based on Indian sources. Second the link that Windjammer provided says clearly says that it is not certain whether the Aircrafts were used in war or not. In fact one also don't know that who were their Pakistani or Jordanians. So all these confusions clearly refute or seriously question your version that Pakistan used F 104 from jordan in the war.

They are unclear about the exact numbers of losses...All they know is there were significant losses as admitted by Pak(according to them) and possible reason that f-104 were not used after 71(they were retired)...

And when Pakistan admitted "significant" losses of F-104 in the war. Your source credibiltiy is seriously weak. According to PAF and GOP Pakistan lost only 3 F-104's during the war. One to ground fire and one due to accident. This isn't a significant loss.

I did not answer??? Man what is wrong with you?? I started posting in this thread way before you...Since we started on 1971 i wanted to stick to it...

When did we started posting about 71 or when did we get to any conclusion about 65? 65 comes before 71. Isn't it. In fact it was you who appealed to shift to 71 and not to talk about 65. The sane thing is to first get to conclusion about 65 and then move to next war.

So now explain how did i jumped to 1971???

Check yourself. Whether you jumped or not?

Till now you and other Indian members have been off topic and immature.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Air operations
Main article: East Pakistan Air Operations, 1971
After the initial preemptive strike, PAF adopted a defensive stance in response to the Indian retaliation. As the war progressed, the Indian Air Force continued to battle the PAF over conflict zones, but the number of sorties flown by the PAF gradually decreased day-by-day.The Indian Air Force flew 4,000 sorties while its counterpart, the PAF offered little in retaliation, partly because of the paucity of non-Bengali technical personnel. This lack of retaliation has also been attributed to the deliberate decision of the PAF High Command to cut its losses as it had already incurred huge losses in the conflict.The PAF also did not intervene during the Indian Navy's raid on Pakistani naval port city of Karachi.
In the east, the small air contingent of Pakistan Air Force No. 14 Sqn was destroyed, putting the Dhaka airfield out of commission and resulting in Indian air superiority in the east.

gun camera shows two sabres meet their end over boyra.

captured pakistani pilots.The Two Pakistani Pilots Parvez Mehdi Qureshi and Khaleel Ahmed who were captured after baling out.

What a knee jerk reaction post! This same image of saber is duplicated by many indian sites and some refer it to as 65 war kill or 71 war. Btw the two pilots are average AF pilots where as IAF top gun pilots were zapped by PAF average pilots!

 

[Areesh]

absurd know! okay if you are crying so much lets accept it.but then how will you rate one of the biggest military disaster in the world"THE BATTLE OF LONGEWALA"..were was your air force ???
secondly my other question why in 1971 PAF's 63% sorties were defnsive??? ...

You have to accept it dear. You don't have another choice. You just made a new profile to troll and to glorify IAF without any authentic undeniable proof.

About MM Alam hunt of IAF Hunters here you with your own site.


Let's start proving M M Alam's kills by your site.

First comes

Sqn Ldr S C Bhagwat

According to Bharat Rakshak.

KIA 07 Sept 1965
Sqn Ldr Bhagwat was flying as an escort to a Five Hunter mission against Sargodha. He was shot down by a F-86 Sabre.

Shot down by F-86 Sabre. You aren't require to be genius to guess who is the pilot of F-86 Sabre.

Next

Fg Offr J S Brar

Again Bharat Rakshak tells us:

KIA 07 Sept 1965
Flg Offr Brar was wingman to Sqn Ldr Bhagwat during an escort mission against Sargodha. His Hunter was shot down by a F-86 Sabre.

No need to tell you who is the pilot of that F-86 Sabre.

Next

Flt Lt Babul Guha

Bharat Rakshak tells us again:

KIA 07 Sept 1965
On a afternoon raid against Sargodha Air Field, Babul Guha was shot down by a Sidewinder missile fired from a F-86 Sabre.

Again an F-86 Sabre!!! They didn't tell the name of the pilot of F-86 but we know who he is.

Now to that Chakkar pilot.

Sqn Ldr Ajamada Boppaya Devayya

KIA 07 Sept 1965
Sqn Ldr Devayya failed to return from a Mystere sortie on Sargodha. It later transpired that he shot down a PAF F-104 before he got killed.

No answer to how his aircraft was destroyed??? We know how it was destroyed. Just check the PAF site.

Here is the link to Bharat Rakshak.

Bharat Rakshak

Date:7 Sept 1965
Aircraft:F-86 Sabre
Event:Attempted raid over Sargodha

Do we need more proofs.

but then how will you rate one of the biggest military disaster in the world"THE BATTLE OF LONGEWALA"..were was your air force ???

And where was your airforce when we were killing your CM from Gujrat inside your territory.

C M Gujrat killed

Read post number 32.

 

[Nononsense]

let me highlight the good part of both.

Neither of the Airforces targetted the civilian areas, they only targetted, Refineries , Airbases, radars and communications or defence / govt establishment.

 

[ironman]

What a knee jerk reaction post! This same image of saber is duplicated by many indian sites and some refer it to as 65 war kill or 71 war. Btw the two pilots are average AF pilots where as IAF top gun pilots were zapped by PAF average pilots!

Look at the the places where the kills happened..

1. Sakesar
2. Chakwal
3. Resalewala
4. Tejgaon (Dacca)

If PAF has the superiority over IAF, the kills must have been in Indian territory. And is also validate the following statement.

"While the enemy was free to fly over our territory , Air Marshal M. Rahim Khan kept himself and his air force hidden during the conflict. ", p.174, Lt.Gen. A.A.K Niazi, The Betrayal of East Pakistan, Oxford University press, ISBN 0185777271

 

[honour]

absurd know! okay if you are crying so much lets accept it.but then how will you rate one of the biggest military disaster in the world"THE BATTLE OF LONGEWALA"..were was your air force ???
secondly my other question why in 1971 PAF's 63% sorties were defensive??? ...

good one just to add to your question.....Where was PAF when Indian boats blazed the Karachi port......

 

[Areesh]

good one just to add to your question.....Where was PAF when Indian boats blazed the Karachi port......

Yeah good one. Just stick to this question. Because we are here to troll and derail the thread.