holysaturn
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Yeah good one. Just stick to this question. Because we are here to troll and derail the thread.
u dont hav an answer right
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Yeah good one. Just stick to this question. Because we are here to troll and derail the thread.
u dont hav an answer right
Just when one thought we have done away with the solitary image of an F-86 being shot down god knows when you bring it up again, Pervez Mehdi Qureshi was a pilot shot down in action and became POW and later rose to become COAS PAF, but do you even know how did Brij Pall Sikand achieved notoriety, he was the pilot who surrendered his Gnat when confronted by an F-104, initially while a prisoner in Pakistan, he was dismissed from the IAF, but ostensibly later became the Airchief of the IAF. The IAF claims to have completed some 4000 sorties compared to just under 3000 for the PAF. Now comparing the size ratio of 5:1, i don't need to remind you how this fairs with your airforce. The IAF it'self admits that most of the air engagements took place over India, which leaves little room to doubt as to which air arm was on the offensive. It is further said that at least three PAF Squadrons were not even utilized, conserving them for battles ahead.Air operations
Main article: East Pakistan Air Operations, 1971
After the initial preemptive strike, PAF adopted a defensive stance in response to the Indian retaliation. As the war progressed, the Indian Air Force continued to battle the PAF over conflict zones, but the number of sorties flown by the PAF gradually decreased day-by-day.The Indian Air Force flew 4,000 sorties while its counterpart, the PAF offered little in retaliation, partly because of the paucity of non-Bengali technical personnel. This lack of retaliation has also been attributed to the deliberate decision of the PAF High Command to cut its losses as it had already incurred huge losses in the conflict.The PAF also did not intervene during the Indian Navy's raid on Pakistani naval port city of Karachi.
In the east, the small air contingent of Pakistan Air Force No. 14 Sqn was destroyed, putting the Dhaka airfield out of commission and resulting in Indian air superiority in the east.
gun camera shows two sabres meet their end over boyra.
captured pakistani pilots.The Two Pakistani Pilots Parvez Mehdi Qureshi and Khaleel Ahmed who were captured after baling out.
What happened 40 odd years earlier is not going to change or matter with our acceptance or denials, all i can say with conviction is that in my several visits to DPR (Air), albeit i have witnessed images of F-5s in PAF Insignia, but nothing to the effect that any Jordanian F-104s actually participated in any combat mission. The foreign Starfighters have never been depicted or portrayed in any manner. Albeit in one of these so called credible sources, i did read the PAF loosing 32 MIG-21s and the IAF supposedly operating Hunter Hawks.Are we getting selective here?? Let me ask you straight do you believe Jordan gave you F-104's in 1971 war or not??
Look at the the places where the kills happened..
1. Sakesar
2. Chakwal
3. Resalewala
4. Tejgaon (Dacca)
If PAF has the superiority over IAF, the kills must have been in Indian territory. And is also validate the following statement.
"While the enemy was free to fly over our territory , Air Marshal M. Rahim Khan kept himself and his air force hidden during the conflict. ", p.174, Lt.Gen. A.A.K Niazi, The Betrayal of East Pakistan, Oxford University press, ISBN 0185777271
First of all the link you are providing isn't very neutral. Many of it's findings are based on Indian sources. Second the link that Windjammer provided says clearly says that it is not certain whether the Aircrafts were used in war or not. In fact one also don't know that who were their Pakistani or Jordanians. So all these confusions clearly refute or seriously question your version that Pakistan used F 104 from jordan in the war.
Sources
1. The Lockheed F-104G/CF-104, Gerhard Joos, Aircraft in Profile No. 131, Doubleday, 1969.
2. The World's Great Interceptor Aircraft, Gallery Books, 1989.
3. Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, Steve Pace, Motorbooks International, 1992.
4. Lockheed Aircraft Since 1913, Rene J. Francillon, Naval Institute Press, 1987.
5. The American Fighter, Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, Orion, 1987.
6. The World's Fighting Planes, William Green, Doubleday 1968.
7. American Combat Planes, Ray Wagner, Third Enlarged Edition, Doubleday, 1982.
8. Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, John Fricker, Wings of Fame, Vol 2, Aerospace Publishing Ltd, 1996.
9. Mikoyan MiG-21, Bill Gunston, Osprey, 1986.
# LOCKHEED F-104 STARFIGHTER by Steve Pace, Motorbooks International, 1992.
# "Lockheed F-104 Starfighter" by John Fricker & Paul Jackson, WINGS OF FAME, Volume 2 / 1996, 38:99.
# "Starfighter In Vietnam" by Warren Thompson, INTERNATIONAL AIR POWER REVIEW, Volume 12 / Spring 2004, 152:161.
# "The Last Starfighters -- Lockheed F-104s Of The Aeronautica Militaire Italiana" by Luigino Caliaro, INTERNATIONAL AIR POWER REVIEW, Volume 6 / Fall 2004, 172:181
Wow...what a justification...when you do not accept anything written by Indian you want me to accept what Pakistan says??? Isn't this immature??? I have shared with you a neutral source claiming there were significantlosses...provide me a neutral source which says the opposite...i know you can't...And when Pakistan admitted "significant" losses of F-104 in the war. Your source credibiltiy is seriously weak. According to PAF and GOP Pakistan lost only 3 F-104's during the war. One to ground fire and one due to accident. This isn't a significant loss.
When did we started posting about 71 or when did we get to any conclusion about 65? 65 comes before 71. Isn't it. In fact it was you who appealed to shift to 71 and not to talk about 65. The sane thing is to first get to conclusion about 65 and then move to next war. Check yourself. Whether you jumped or not?
Till now you and other Indian members have been off topic and immature.
What happened 40 odd years earlier is not going to change or matter with our acceptance or denials, all i can say with conviction is that in my several visits to DPR (Air), albeit i have witnessed images of F-5s in PAF Insignia, but nothing to the effect that any Jordanian F-104s actually participated in any combat mission. The foreign Starfighters have never been depicted or portrayed in any manner. Albeit in one of these so called credible sources, i did read the PAF loosing 32 MIG-21s and the IAF supposedly operating Hunter Hawks.
Suffice to repeat my self, if the IAF had indeed engaged with the Jordanian F-104s and more over if it claims to have downed any PAF Mirages, it would be more inclined to publicize these kills rather than the same irritating images of the F-86 being repeated for ever.If I have not given you pictures that does not mean facts will change...b/w let me know what specific pictures are you looking for and i will see if i can provide you same??? Since I did not know what specific pic you were asking from me so posted a few...
These are the the two neutral source i ahve provided so far...Can you please point what so called credible source is claiming that???
[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)
The India-Pakistan War Of 1971: A Modern War
Suffice to repeat my self, if the IAF had indeed engaged with the Jordanian F-104s and more over if it claims to have downed any PAF Mirages, it would be more inclined to publicize these kills rather than the same irritating images of the F-86 being repeated for ever.
On the contrary, here is how PAF gives credibility to it's claims.
These are the the two neutral source i ahve provided so far...Can you please point what so called credible source is claiming that???
[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)
The India-Pakistan War Of 1971: A Modern War
As you yourself said that it is not certain so Indian claims cannot be simply debuked because there is a possibility that they were used and their performance against Mig-21 was not good as well...
By the way there is another link that say's the opposite
[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)
I have already answered. Try reading posts.
Let me do more research and get back to you...As far as my research goes i never claimed that Jordian F-104's were shot down...All i am claiming is thatNothing but Indian propaganda. According to SIPRI arms transfer data base PAF loaned 10 Jordanian F-104s and returned all of the 10 in 1972. Their is no evidence that Jordanian F-104s were shot down in 71 war other then Indian claims.
Already shared my thought...B/W what accidents are you talking about which Indian's claim's as kills...Its always easy to debunk Indian claims. IAF has claimed accidents as their own kills which is quite cheap.
Hang on here...Bcoz i have not been able to give you pictures doesn't mean that claims can be debunked....Since PAF claims they ruled the sky how many pictures can you provide me for each claimed kill??? If you wanna kill by kill i am all for it...However it is hard to get pictures(especially when i have 0 military background) and is waste of time.....Still i will carry on my research and will get back...Fair???