Diplomatic failure led to India-China war

[Secur]

Hi Secur, I will tell analogy to you

Pakistan keeps all the afghani territories conquered by British (KP and FATA and some parts of Balochistan), and its right because Pakistan inherited that from British India due to Durand line.

Similarly, India should inherit the land aksai chin and tawang from British India due to MacMohan line.

The fallacy in this analogy is that , my friend that Afghans signed and ratified the agreement publicly and openly whilst the Chinese never did ( according to the official accounts ) , Beijing claims that the drawn line was unilateral and they never approved of that ...

Hence the problem ...

 

[Shardul.....the lion]

The fallacy in this analogy is that , my friend that Afghans ratified the agreement publicly and openly whilst the Chinese never did ( according to the official accounts ) , Beijing claims that the drawn line was unilateral and they never approved of that ...

Yet the current Afghan govt or even your messiah Taliban never accepted Durand line.
Secondly the Macmohan line was an agreement between Britishers and then independent tibetan government. (China annexed tibet in 1950s).

 

[Jackdaws]

The fallacy in this analogy is that , my friend that Afghans ratified the agreement publicly and openly whilst the Chinese never did ( according to the official accounts ) , Beijing claims that the drawn line was unilateral and they never approved of that ...

The problem is the relatively modern concept of "nation-state". The regions in the border areas of 2 ancient civilizations like India and China are bound to have changed hands. Even China's takeover of Tibet was based on - "it was historically a part of China". They meant civilization and not nation. The best thing would have been to let the status quo remain.

 

[Sashan]

Right after signing a friendship agreement with Red China , you think Forward Policy was right and should have been enforced with military ? ... The one thing Indians need to understand that the British left the borders undemarcated all the time ...
Even the Pak-China one ! ... This added with hosting the largest Chinese separatist group , covert support for Tibet and ingressing upon Chinese controlled/claimed territories was what led to war ! ... Had you played your cards well , you wouldn't have had an adversary in the north to worry about ...

Even while the friendship agreement was being signed, Red China was taking India for a ride. China might feel they have the right with Akshai Chin but if there is a friendship agreement what do two friends do even if there is a dispute ? Sit and talk. Instead China was unilaterally, covertly building road in Akshai Chin. So you see it was not Nehru's fault except being foolish and not listening to other leaders and cutting down the army budget.

All this hosting of Dalai Lama came later.

While on the Ladakh border, I would say that the lines were not clear(on the Mcmahon line), in Akshai Chin the lines were clear(Johnson line vs Macdonald line) and it was a matter of deciding which line and Nehru would have accepted the Macdonald line if China was little patient.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Events leading to the Sino-Indian War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I meant diplomacy After all the mess the British left us in , compromise with each other was the only solution !

Not a wikipedia link a proper source

 

[Shardul.....the lion]

Even while the friendship agreement was being signed, Red China was taking India for a ride. China might feel they have the right with Akshai Chin but if there is a friendship agreement what do two friends do even if there is a dispute ? Sit and talk. Instead China was unilaterally, covertly building road in Akshai Chin. So you see it was not Nehru's fault except being foolish and not listening to other leaders and cutting down the army budget.

All this hosting of Dalai Lama came later.

Yes Nehrus fault was complete ignorance of army's needs. But forward policy was never wrong.

I request all Indians please dont consider Nevill Maxwell as a neutral source. Nehru had strong soviet socialist leanings and hence western historians were critical of India at that time.

 

[Sashan]

Yes Nehrus fault was complete ignorance of army's needs. But forward policy was never wrong.

I request all Indians please dont consider Nevill Maxwell as a neutral source. Nehru had strong socialist leanings and hence western historians were critical of India.

Forward policy was not wrong and it was only a reaction to China's actions. 2 months prior to the forward policy enforcement, China started aggressive patrolling like what they are doing now - Getting far south of the McMahon line.

As you said, it was an ignorant one in that he failed to prepare the army.

 

[Secur]

The only we can have good relations with Red China is to hand over the disputed territory to them without any question and accept them as Asian overlords just as Pakistan did. We are not ready for it.

Sorry harpoon , your information is wrong again ... China wasn't asking you to handover all the disputed territories since Tawang was accepted as a part of Tibet by McMahon Line ... What Pakistan did , is another story for perhaps another thread ... A realignment and demarcation involving give and take from both sides , not Pakistan gifting territory to Peking as commonly perceived in your country ...

Not a wikipedia link a proper source

What constitutes as a proper source for you ? I have seen Indians and Chinese alike quote the same article from time to time here ...

Yet the current Afghan govt or even your messiah Taliban never accepted Durand line.
Secondly the Macmohan line was an agreement between Britishers and then independent tibetan government. (China annexed tibet in 1950s).

You are comparing apples and oranges now ... Actually not , the die was cast in the past ( ) when the Afghan sovereigns signed the agreement with the British crown ... Even if current Afghan Govt doesn't recognize it , declares it null and void , it doesn't matter ...

Are you aware that Tibetans never approved of the agreement and it was forcefully imposed on them ? Of course , Chinese refused to ratify the agreement when it took control of Tibet ...

 

[INDIC]

Sorry harpoon , your information is wrong again ... China wasn't asking you to handover all the disputed territories since Tawang was accepted as a part of Tibet by McMahon Line ... What Pakistan did , is another story for perhaps another thread ... A realignment and demarcation involving give and take from both sides , not Pakistan gifting territory to Peking as commonly perceived in your country ....

China has border dispute with 20 countries, what you can expect for them. Pakistan also surrendered a huge territory to win their friendship.

 

[Secur]

China has border dispute with 20 countries, what you can expect for them. Pakistan also surrendered a huge territory to win their friendship.

Not really , they have solved more than half of them ... I will merely contribute to derail the thread if i start posting facts about the '63 border agreement between China and Pakistan so leave it for another thread ...

 

[Sashan]

The focus for China is not on the McMahon line as they just wanted/want a graceful compromise. China's attention was/is on the Akshai Chin as they wanted the land as it can provide the crucial link between West Tibet and Xin Jiang. That is the reason, China raised the fever on the Ladakh border only in the last 7 years to force India to arrive at the Akshai Chin compromise which anyway is not with India now. My take is China would agree on the current LOC in Ladakh border if India is willing to get rid of the claim on Akshai Chin.

 

[Secur]

And the Crown is also responsible for breakage of nation into two nations. First tell me whether you support the lines drawn by Crown or not?

In this case , that would be " us " ... Not the Crown ! ... Which lines to be exact ?

 

[harpoon]

Sorry harpoon , your information is wrong again ... China wasn't asking you to handover all the disputed territories since Tawang was accepted as a part of Tibet by McMahon Line ... What Pakistan did , is another story for perhaps another thread ... A realignment and demarcation involving give and take from both sides , not Pakistan gifting territory to Peking as commonly perceived in your country ...

FYI the Chinese are claiming entire AP not just Tawang alone.

As for Pakistan 750 sq miles in return for 2050 sq miles....seems like a good bargain

You are comparing apples and oranges now ... Actually not , the die was cast in the past ( ) when the Afghan sovereigns signed the agreement with the British crown ... Even if current Afghan Govt doesn't recognize it , declares it null and void , it doesn't matter ...

Are you aware that Tibetans never approved of the agreement and it was forcefully imposed on them ? Of course , Chinese refused to ratify the agreement when it took control of Tibet ...

The same situation here. Tibet as an independent country accepted the Mac Mohan line , now PRC don't. The Afghan Govt then agreed to Durand line..now Taliban & present Afghan Govt don't.

 

[Windjammer]

China has border dispute with 20 countries, what you can expect for them. Pakistan also surrendered a huge territory to win their friendship.

Rather than talking about irrelevant issues, why not address the topic at hand, for here's something to ponder about.

The Hindu : News / International : China spruces up highway through Aksai Chin

 

[Shardul.....the lion]

You are comparing apples and oranges now ... Actually not , the die was cast in the past ( ) when the Afghan sovereigns signed the agreement with the British crown ... Even if current Afghan Govt doesn't recognize it , declares it null and void , it doesn't matter ...

Are you aware that Tibetans never approved of the agreement and it was forcefully imposed on them ? Of course , Chinese refused to ratify the agreement when it took control of Tibet ...

According my knowlegde the agreement known as Simla accord was signed and agreed by British and then independent Tibet. But China refused to agree.