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Did Two Nation Theory Die in 1971 After Creation of Bangladesh?

This is an interesting discussion. The Pakistani identity and ideology remained intact in west Pakistan after the break up so the two nation theory was a success. And we are alive and believe in every inch of Pakistan. So that should be enough to prove the two nation theory successful.
 
@ LoveIcon, @ Oscar

O Bhai Log please understand the context here. Khan A. Sufyan is only highlighting the historical context of events and happenings and is certainly not explaining the religiosity of religions. This is a very important point to understand here.

In many cases the religious scriptures are used to ascertain the historical events or happenings, as contemporary historical record of a particular era may not be available. The historians and analysts have been doing this since long and have related the happenings with explanations given in religious scriptures of various religions. This form of historical referencing has been practiced by renowned historians or historical analysts all over the world.

History of Republic of India has been related to references made in the Rig Veda, the epic Mahabharata and other Vedic and Hindu scriptures. The biblical referencing of historical events, the timelines of the eras of various Prophets and other related historical events are referenced to cite history of the era. So is the case with Islam and other religions. This is not related to religiosity in any manner – it is related to explanation of history and conduct of historical analyses.

In the papers written by Khan A. Sufyan, he does the same. The Indian historians and many westerners relate the happenings of IVC era with Rig Veda and other Vedic scriptures and cite references from it. This has been done as history of the era is vague and is not known in entirety. Khan A. Sufyan is probably one of those few if not the first one, who have cited references from Abrahamic description of timelines and happenings. Why was it not done before – there can be many reasons which could be highlighted but this is not under discussion here.

The problem here is that because he mentions monotheism, which is the primary Abrahamic propagation, he is being accused of a bias. When the same thing is being propagated by the Indians and westerners citing the Vedic/Hindu scriptures like Rig Veda and Mahabharata, it is accepted as a norm – why is this so. Probably because he is a Muslim and is from Pakistan. And probably because there is a so-called Muslim Terrorism cycle underway, everything and anything of historical value cited by a Muslim and a Pakistani is viewed and coloured with a bias. He has been slighted by westerners by being called **** and in search of a homeland that never was.

Contrarily, he is using the Abrahamic explanation of events and highlighting a purely historical happening which has never been analysed before in the manner he did. Instead of appreciating his research efforts, we accuse him of being a ****, because he is the only one who is challenging the earlier held historical non-facts. He has mentioned in both the papers that I cited, that historically, the people of Pakistan during various times were monotheists, Vedic/Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims etc. I wonder if the mention of Muslim hurt some so much.

When I read Khan A. Sufyan mentioning Jinnah’s interviews, I read a book which had compilation of Quaid e Azam’s interviews given to foreign journalists. In one such interview he explained the geopolitical importance of Pakistan. This interview was taken before the creation of Pakistan. It was an eye opener for me. He could not have given his vision if he was not aware of history in so much detail. And his vision of Pakistan’s geopolitical importance is remarkably true to this day as well – and it could not have been ascertained without the kind of understanding of history that Jinnah had with regard to the inherent separate identity of this land of ours.

The sense and spirit of history can only be understood if it is viewed and seen in continuity and not in isolation. All events are related to earlier happenings. After all, there were people who lived in the land we call Pakistan before the advent of Islam. Who were these people and how does the history relate to the present in essence and continuity, is at the heart of all this.

You may not agree with me, please don’t. But please do not under-rate historical prevalence of the fact that this land of our, whatever we call it – Meluhha, Pakistan or any other name – it remained as a separate political entity for major part of its over 9000 years of known continuous history and only remained as one political unit with old India for a short aberated time.

And please, appreciate those who bring such facts to life instead of resorting to historical isolationism.

Sir - I think nobody is disputing that IVC was separate civilization from Ganges, and both archeological & genetic research also prove that they were different - No problem here, infect Pakistan should own and feel proud of her IVC heritage and later nations originated from IVC over period of time. The problem here is linking IVC somehow with TNT theory which is purely religious and was applied on whole sub-continent not just western parts.
 
And we are alive and believe in every inch of Pakistan. So that should be enough to prove the two nation theory successful.

Additionally, your success as a nation state vis a vis pluralistic secular India is further vindication of the success of the TNT.

Btw, can you tell us what is the identity of a Pakistani, what is Pakistan's ideology? I have been on this board for nearly a year, and still cannot find a reasonably clear and unambiguous consensus amongst your compatriots on that. Hence asking.
 
Sir - I think nobody is disputing that IVC was separate civilization from Ganges, and both archeological & genetic research also prove that they were different - No problem here, infect Pakistan should own and feel proud of her IVC heritage and later nations originated from IVC over period of time. The problem here is linking IVC somehow with TNT theory which is purely religious and was applied on whole sub-continent not just western parts.

Lets see the differences between the people occupying the IVC and Gangetic valley and its plains during the time of IVC and during the movement of creation of Pakistan. This includes those people who were influenced and infused with IVC’s civizational and politico-societal precepts during the later periods.

During the IVC period

Religious differences

Governing differences

Civilizational differences

Cultural differences

Societal/Social differences

Economic differences

Political differences

During the Pakistan movement period

Religious differences

Governing differences

Civilizational differences

Cultural differences

Societal/Social differences

Economic differences

Political differences

Those who have even the basic knowledge about the IVC’s civizational and politico-societal precepts would understand some of the sets of differences explained above.

These differences which existed thousands of years ago are still majorly prevalent. They were two different people then and they are two different people even now. This can only happen if the continuation of historical character and distinctiveness is maintained.

This is how I look at it. You may still disagree with me.
 
urdu is orginated from sanskrit,persian,arabic and turkish languages ,and sanskrit orgin is pakistan punjab ,also Arab brought arabic language first in pakistan land ,same with other invaders so how basic urdu was not orginated in pakistan AND non - Meluhhan? punjabi is the mother of urdu :yay:

Although this is not related to the current topic but this is a common misconception.There are multiple theories about the origin of Urdu apart from Lashkari Zaban theory.A language might evolve by obtaining nourishment from it's surrounding geographical area,but it is impossible to create a complete new language by intermingling two or more languages.Urdu as widely believed did not originate from Classical Sanskrit. According to linguist it is a much older language than presumed and perhaps it was an offshoot of Shourseni Prakrit,spoken around Mathura region.
 
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Sir - I think nobody is disputing that IVC was separate civilization from Ganges, and both archeological & genetic research also prove that they were different - No problem here, infect Pakistan should own and feel proud of her IVC heritage and later nations originated from IVC over period of time. The problem here is linking IVC somehow with TNT theory which is purely religious and was applied on whole sub-continent not just western parts.

What kind of Genetic difference.
 
Google is your friend - And yes, you can study Indian researcher only as other can be biased.

If you can write in short, how? :cheesy:

Your country's founder was not even native to Pakistan but Gondal in Gujarat.
 
This is an interesting discussion. The Pakistani identity and ideology remained intact in west Pakistan after the break up so the two nation theory was a success. And we are alive and believe in every inch of Pakistan. So that should be enough to prove the two nation theory successful.

The name "Pakistan" only included 5 provinces, there was no B in it. So BD being separate muslim country had no impact on it because it was thousands of KM away and completly different people.
 
Yes of course it did. 1971 and also India in the last 65 years have proved that religion alone cannot be a binding factor and Hindus and Muslims can live together in the same country. India is not perfect but then nothing really is. However as an Indian even though it was a flawed ideology I'm glad for two nation theory.
 
It was supposed to be restricted, but I am not sure why it does not turn out to be. @WebMaster

Perhaps something dropped through the cracks during the changeover.

I DO hope that the situation goes back to what it was, and that we can have a natter without every passing school dropout taking the time out to drop his trousers and piss on the discussion.
 
It successfully achieved it's objectives in 1947 and Muslims do believe nothing is eternal in this life.

In some senses, I do agree with this post.

The only possible use for the Two Nation Theory could have been to create a vehicle for the Muslim identity to be expressed, and for Muslims in the general sense to get an opportunity to develop themselves to their full potential. After this was achieved, in a manner that neither Iqbal nor Jinnah seem to have foreseen, the theory was obviously irrelevant, and did not serve any purpose, except to remind present-day Pakistanis why they are there as Pakistanis.

As Oscar has pointed out beyond the possibility of it being overlooked, except by a lobotomised tailor's dummy, it was not what was done with the opportunity to develop fully that is important, it was the opportunity being available at all. Whether Pakistan did well with the opportunity or not, whether Bangladesh did well with the opportunity as long as it was available or not, are both part of a set of irrelevant questions that utterly fail to understand that what happened in 1947 was irreversible, and continues to be so. We can never return to the India of the 1940s, of before August 15, 1947. Time travel is not possible, social reversal is not possible, the erasure of two generations of independent existence is not possible. So the Two Nation Theory has to be taken in its original context before that date, August 15, to be judged as an historical artefact. It remains an eminently debatable sociological and social dictum for general applicability, however, in its objective of demarcating the boundary between two opposed, or non-overlapping identities, however, and talking about it independent of the occasion and context of the creation of Pakistan is not illegal, I believe.

Just that the two need to be separated. I hope in my reply to @Oscar, I will be able to achieve that segregation of context. 
I'm not sure what in your view constitutes a nation? In a muslim nation, are the Shias & Sunnis separate nations? Where do you stop? We all have multiple identities and they will all crop up now & then. Communal ideals cannot die just because the state is secular, it is not as if Muslims will agree to become less muslim or Hindus, less Hindu immediately. What we do is try & find a balance, that is done by keeping the constitution as secular & possible & hoping that eventually the people will fail those ideals less & less. Please remember that the Indian situation is skewed by the very fact of partition itself & while that memory for the large part suppressed, it still remains too close to the event & Pakistan remains a constant reminder. Looking for perfection is pointless, however our systems allow us to atleast aspire to it.

Personally, I believe that the term 'nation' is dated and insufficiently precise. The term should be identities, perhaps.

Yes, the shenanigans of the BJP indicate clearly that there are multiple identities within India. They also alert us, if indeed, we are alert, that there are other such situations - there are other nation-states with multiple identities prevalent among their citizens.

I agree with @Bang Galore on his reasoning about the essence of a religious identity remaining even as the debate shifts to other identities; such a shift of emphasis to other identities in no way implies the withdrawal of the allegiance to the original set of identities discussed. They just go underground for a while. We are also handicapped, in India, by the horrors of partition, and the gravitational attraction they have on discussions and states and the ability to break loose from the controversial identity crises of the past.
 
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Perhaps something dropped through the cracks during the changeover.

I DO hope that the situation goes back to what it was, and that we can have a natter without every passing school dropout taking the time out to drop his trousers and piss on the discussion.

And those who think that they have returned from Etons and Harrows tend to piss in their own pants and apply handsome doses of cheap Charlies to hide their own stink.

ooops ...........
 
you are forcing religion into the debate whereas it is proven that religion cannot bind into a nation.
the muslims were allowed to thrive not by the majority hindus, but because the majority hindus wanted secular government, thereby giving up dominating power, unlike in Pakistan where the majority sunni muslims have quashed the aspirations of hindus, then ahmadis and Christians and now even shias.

only the paksitanis are saying that congress rule is hindu rule because its become the natural habit to view every political situation through the lens of religion.

It will probably be a failure to respond to this without first addressing that masterful effort by @Oscar, but since that will take a longer time than is available right now, let us make a sally through the portal gate.

It is proven, now, that religion cannot bind into a nation.

1. It was not proved then; what people responding to Iqbal's analysis were doing was to respond to what they saw as contemporary reality, and we, on the other hand, have the frightfully clever trick to play of responding to Iqbal's analysis with the blinding insights of subsequent events.

2. Majority Hindus may not have sought exclusive dominating power in government, and may have given up their option to dominate by choosing a supposedly secular form of government, but the matter is more subtle than that. The fear was then; the object of fear was what is now 'now'. Are those fears borne out? The Sachar Committee report seems to think so; it conjures up a morbidly depressing view of a community which remains backward and listless, apathetic, not sharing in the fruits of growth, sunk in the Slough of Despond. Was that original Muslim fear wrong? It cannot be dismissed out of hand, but needs more careful examination than we have given it, perhaps.

3. As @Oscar has already pointed out, it was the possibility of full development under their own government that was invigorating, not the thorough mess those given the opportunity created on their own.

Let us return to these at a more appropriate time. 
And those who think that they have returned from Etons and Harrows tend to piss in their own pants and apply handsome doses of cheap Charlies to hide their own stink.

ooops ...........

Thank you for taking the trouble to prove my point.
 
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