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Devyani Khobragade case: India sets up special group

In the he said-she said story, Devyani might have won the case. But the blunder of the Delhi police is going to weigh in with the jury heavily when DA paints a picture for the jury.


Not sure who filed the tickets. If it is a diplomat, he will have full immunity. If it is a consular official, he has immunity for official business - the tax evasion, if any would come under his official business - unlike Devyani's which is a personal business and does not qualify for immunity under Vienna Conventions. There is no double standard here - Devyani is a consular officer and not a diplomat unlike Neena Malhotra who was let go of by US on similar charges due to her full immunity a year back.

Beyond that, whether one can be handcuffed or not - you know my position and I think I know yours. Lets not go there as it is pointless to discuss it.

And regarding American schools in India - not sure about the US citizens working and not paying taxes but I know that the wives of many consular officials work for no pay(just like many Americans do in different countries - clarifying if you raise the question are they stupid to work without pay) How do I know? I have a family member run a pet shop near the diplomatic enclave in Delhi and have these teachers as customers and I personally know one of them who has moved back to US.

How the tax evasion? I mean if have used tax-free tickets for him or any other consular officials, or any official from US govt, is understandable. Even the consular officials family do not have tax free priviliges. How can he get tax free tickets for Indian citizens, unrelated to his business work? Pardon but how this is official?
Secondly, I am sure, there would be people who work as teachers for free. Personally even me know many Sashan. But of course there are many who work for money, even US families.
The point is if A country goes into such details and technalities, why cant a B country do the same? If India looks into in deeply, they are breaking local laws for sure,
 
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How the tax evasion? I mean if have used tax-free tickets for him or any other consular officials, or any official from US govt, is understandable. Even the consular officials family do not have tax free priviliges. How can he get tax free tickets for Indian citizens, unrelated to his business work? Pardon but how this is official?
Secondly, I am sure, there would be people who work as teachers for free. Personally even me know many Sashan. But of course there are many who work for money, even US families.
The point is if A country goes into such details and technalities, why cant a B country do the same? If India looks into in deeply, they are breaking local laws for sure,

There is a case in US against and ther US DOJ feels there is witness intimidation. The instruction goes to US DOS under whom the consular official comes to secure the witness. That is official line of business and even if India thinks it is wrong - it is a crime committed by consular official in the official line of work. And what is the penalty in India for a tax evasion of some few thousand rupees even if India proceeds to arrest the consular official? I think it is 3 times fine for the first 1 lakh or something. So still the consular official will pay the fine and will walk out.

And if there is a serious crime on part of the US consular officials, let India take action against. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.


Also let me explain why US has taken this seriously repeating what I posted in another thread.

US was privy to these kinds of maid abuse not just by India but by other countries. So in 2008, formulated William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorisation Act which was meant to be protecting all the workers coming to US from the unfair treatment by their employers(not just the maids, even the software professionals and other educated employees). As per this law the diplomats/consular officers were made known of and had the obligation to inform their employees of their rights(in case of A3 visas) and read the pamplet link I published below on what the rights are.


In 2008, the US government accountability office (GAO) published a report which identified 42 instances of diplomats in the US accused of abusing foreign employees they had brought to the country between 2000 and 2008.

The GAO report conceded that this almost certainly underestimated the problem. Nearly a third of the accused diplomats were from Africa while 15 per cent were from Asia and 2.5 per cent from Europe.

Also in 2008, the William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorisation Act strengthened protections offered to employees of diplomats and consular officials employees and made it possible to censure employers.

And many previous cases were successfully prosecuted -

1. There was a civil court law suit against Neena Malhotra who enjoyed full diplomatic immunity unlike Devyani was sued for $1.5 million and in this case the maid abused was a 17 year old girl called Shanti Gurung but she had run away to India without facing the civil charges.
2. Another Indian diplomat Prabhu Dayal settled for an undiclosed sum for abusing the maid.
3. Another Mauritius diplomat settled for a retribution of $25,000 and a fine of $5000.
4. Another Taiwanese diplomat was prosecuted and was asked to pay about $80,000

http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/Pamphlet-Order.pdf

So it is not a case of mere technicality in the eyes of US else the 2008 act wouldn't have happened. Ofcourse it covers the H1B professionals as well.



Also I will say why I feel strongly about this case(which is separate from which country I support)

In 1990s, H1B professionals from India and other countries need to wait 3 months for the visa approval from the US DOS for the employees to work for other employers. Many employers, mostly Indian bodyshoppers harassed the employees and even threatened the employees with revoking visas(covered here in the new law under fear and threat) and sometimes will not file the tax deductions for employees with IRS making the H1B employees culprits as well while not paying their salaries all for the greediness of the Employers. In few cases, the employees' medical insurance were revoked by the greedy employers breaking laws with impunity and threatening the employees who though were educated were afraid to go to the authorities. I knew atleast 2 of them in this situation.

US INS(under US DOS - now renamed as USCIS) stepped in after seeing many cases of harassment and changed the procedure in that the employees can go work for new employer if the new employer's visa for the employee was filed with US DOS. Which would mean the employee can go work for new employer in a matter of days. Still the harassment was there.


And the 2008 law(which covers the A3 visa as well) fixed most of the gaps under which the H1B bodyshoppers were exploiting the employees. US took cognizance of harassments of the maids, of the software professionals and others and brought in this comprehensive law.

So you see my opinion is formed due to what I saw over a period of years and why my sympathy is with the maid.
 
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And if the "special group" comes up with nothing, then what?

Keep looking and keep the pressure on the US and wait for them to make a mistake and then Crack down on REAL HARD with the full force of the LAW.

I am sure with more than 100's of American consulate members and their family in India, it is a statistical impossibility to keep yourself without breaking some Indian law. LOL.

They will slip, and then BAM. Till then they can continue to live in Fear of the Indian law and wondering when they are going to be made an example off. Which member of their family is being trailed and when they are going to be arrested for which crime. This whole living in fear is really a far greater punishment than anything the law can make them suffer.

He is a nice and a knowledgable member. Just cos how badly we argue here, US govt is not going to see the discussion here and release her.
Ya, I do believe, the official who helped her family to go US, by getting tickets for diplomats should be arrested.

He is a knowledgeable member and quite sensible too. Which is why I am surprised to see him support this totally untenable US action.

His foolish posturing and attempting to defend US action of "moral grounds" is quite entertaining. As if the US has any right to any kind of moral posturing. :P
 
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You know very well it was not "human trafficking" -
Khobragade brought her to this country with the intent of underpaying her and controlling her employment. That's the definition of human trafficking.

Sangeetha agreed to the contract and then came here. It was not that she was "duped". She was paid the promised salary, stayed, ate in her home etc.
Doesn't matter under either U.S. law or the U.N.'s guidelines.

Ya, I do believe, the official who helped her family to go US, by getting tickets for diplomats should be arrested.
Because he acted on behalf of his country and not for his own benefit the U.S. official has immunity. Since Khobragade acted for her own benefit rather than that of her country she does not. Both cases are covered in the same Article of the Consular Convention - which, by now, you should have bookmarked, so I'm not going to bother to link to it for the umpteenth time.

Keep looking and keep the pressure on the US and wait for them to make a mistake and then Crack down on REAL HARD with the full force of the LAW.
That might upset some U.S. officials in India, but not this Administration.

As if the US has any right to any kind of moral posturing. :P
How do you figure it doesn't? I've engaged in such arguments before, you know. My opponents are reduced to smoke and lies, justifying themselves on the basis that they should be entitled to the same respect and honor as people who really do behave well. :sick: Lack of honest self-criticism means there can be no self-improvement of society, yes? You might grow materially more wealthy yet remain criminals, and as you and your neighbors grow to afford better weapons your country will simply become more violent and eventually fission apart.

Do you want there to be an "India" fifty years from now, or are you content to see your region as South Pakistan?
 
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That might upset some U.S. officials in India, but not this Administration.

As long as India can extract its pound of flesh no one in India cares what the US administration thinks. LOL. Do you seriously think otherwise ? :cheesy:

How do you figure it doesn't? I've engaged in such arguments before, you know. My opponents are reduced to smoke and lies, justifying themselves on the basis that they should be entitled to the same respect and honor as people who really do behave well. :sick: Lack of honest self-criticism means there can be no self-improvement of society, yes? You might grow materially more wealthy yet remain criminals, and as you and your neighbors grow to afford better weapons your country will simply become more violent and eventually fission apart.

I really don't care for your claims of past 'victories'.

Nor for your claim that you and your kind are 'well behaved'. LOL. Every fool is allowed his own delusions. I have nothing to say on that topic.

Self-Criticism must come from SELF :lol: ........ since when did the Americans stated considering themselves as Indians ? :lol:

I suggest you leave the mental gymnastics about the future of India to Indians. :P..... you really should not be worry your pretty little head about it.

Do you want there to be an "India" fifty years from now, or are you content to see your region as South Pakistan?

As I said, you better worry if you want an US fifty years from now, or are you content to see your nation continuing down the path as the evil empire ? Your big guns and missiles are slowly being matched all around the world. The day the world decides to trade in OIL in any other currency besides the US $, your whole economy will collapse like a house of cards. You can continue to threaten nations to buy oil in USD, but how long can you continue to bully nations ? :azn:

As to the future of India, We Indians will decide how or what we want. You can go suck an egg.
 
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The U.N. and I.C.C. class human trafficking - which is what Khobragade was doing - as a "grave crime". That's why she was arrested, whereas the Russians who committed mass fraud a few months back were not - such fraud doesn't meet the 'grave crime' standard.

And if the "special group" comes up with nothing, then what?

human trafficking is indeed a grave crime. Its despicable that Indians here defend human transporting.

Keep looking and keep the pressure on the US and wait for them to make a mistake and then Crack down on REAL HARD with the full force of the LAW.

I am sure with more than 100's of American consulate members and their family in India, it is a statistical impossibility to keep yourself without breaking some Indian law. LOL.

They will slip, and then BAM. Till then they can continue to live in Fear of the Indian law and wondering when they are going to be made an example off. Which member of their family is being trailed and when they are going to be arrested for which crime. This whole living in fear is really a far greater punishment than anything the law can make them suffer.



He is a knowledgeable member and quite sensible too. Which is why I am surprised to see him support this totally untenable US action.

His foolish posturing and attempting to defend US action of "moral grounds" is quite entertaining. As if the US has any right to any kind of moral posturing. :P

Its too late for Indians to charge Americans now without appear to be a retaliation. If I'm India, I will wait until all these is clear for a while and then suddenly make a move.
 
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As long as India can extract its pound of flesh no one in India cares what the US administration thinks. LOL. Do you seriously think otherwise ?
We'll see.

Every fool is allowed his own delusions. I have nothing to say on that topic.
I do:

"Everyone is allowed their own opinion, but not their own facts." - late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Self-Criticism must come from SELF :lol: ........ since when did the Americans stated considering themselves as Indians ? :lol:
It is the job of a good friend to contest his companion's train of thought and offer him counsel when it turns towards madness.

As I said, you better worry if you want an US fifty years from now, or are you content...we Indians will decide how or what we want. You can go -
You could just say, "No, I don't care." - since you aren't contesting my points about the long-term danger of moral corruption.
 
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Its too late for Indians to charge Americans now without appear to be a retaliation. If I'm India, I will wait until all these is clear for a while and then suddenly make a move.

Its never too late. If it appears like retaliation then all the more better.

It will send out a LOUD message to the US and rest of the world. You can BET US image the world over will take a very serious beating if a soft nation like India cracks down hard on the US and humiliates its diplomats.

You see, there is no win win situation here. Either way the US looses this small diplomatic battle. Best you can do is not get into a diplomatic war.

The best part is India now gets to choose the time and place of its attack. So much for US grand standing. Reality bites more than it barks.
 
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Its never too late. If it appears like retaliation then all the more better.

It will send out a LOUD message to the US and rest of the world. You can BET US image the world over will take a very serious beating if a soft nation like India cracks down hard on the US and humiliates its diplomats.

You see, there is no win win situation here. Either way the US looses this small diplomatic battle. Best you can do is not get into a diplomatic war.

The best part is India now gets to choose the time and place of its attack. So much for US grand standing. Reality bites more than it barks.

If American diplomats get arrested in large scale. It would bring back the Iran hostage crisis in American minds. US screw it up during that episode and it would not let go of this new incident. Watch for American public to demand that US take actions, even military ones. What will happen could be grave between US and India.
 
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We'll see.

We shall, wont we ? India never forgets. (maybe one of the reasons it is considered an elephant)

It is the job of a good friend to contest his companion's train of thought and offer him counsel when it turns towards madness.

"good friend" is a stretch considering you have been our adversary for the last 30-40 odd years. :lol:

You best advice your own govt. on its path to madness.

You could just say, "No, I don't care." - since you aren't contesting my points about the long-term danger of moral corruption.

You seriously think an American can advice an Indian about moral corruption ? :cheesy: ?

I do not even take such posts from your seriously enough to even respond to it.

If American diplomats get arrested in large scale. It would bring back the Iran hostage crisis in American minds. US screw it up during that episode and it would not let go of this new incident. Watch for American public to demand that US take actions, even military ones. What will happen could be grave between US and India.

It won't be large scale, since you arrested only one of ours, India would probably arrest either one or two.

It is already grave between US and India :lol: ..... you bozo's just do not get it.
 
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We shall, wont we ? India never forgets. (maybe one of the reasons it is considered an elephant)



"good friend" is a stretch considering you have been our adversary for the last 30-40 odd years. :lol:

You best advice your own govt. on its path to madness.



You seriously think an American can advice an Indian about moral corruption ? :cheesy: ?

I do not even take such posts from your seriously enough to even respond to it.



It won't be large scale, since you arrested only one of ours, India would probably arrest either one or two.

It is already grave between US and India :lol: ..... you bozo's just do not get it.

Sounds like human trafficking is not a big deal in India. Its a serious crime in the US and you should condemn your diplomat for committed that crime instead of defending her.

India has been talking about arresting Americans. Lets drop this topic until this happens. In the mean time, worry about defending the diplomat in court.
 
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Sounds like human trafficking is not a big deal in India. Its a serious crime in the US and you should condemn your diplomat for committed that crime instead of defending her.

India has been talking about arresting Americans. Lets drop this topic until this happens. In the mean time, worry about defending the diplomat in court.

As a matter of fact Human Trafficking is a big deal but not big enough. We have enough 'big deal' issues to deal with, without adding human trafficking to that list.

However this particular case (in US court) is about "lying to get a visa". LOL.

You know why ? because the US govt. just cannot charge the Indian diplomat with human trafficking :lol: ...... that just remains your wishful thinking and means to get your next orgasm.

There is nothing to worry about defending the diplomat in court. She will walk free. Of that I have NO DOUBT. So as such there is nothing to discuss.

Why not? Maybe you should.

LOL. Seriously ?

Where do we start ? From wiping out the native Americans ? to slavery ? to wars ? to promoting hegemony ? to supporting and encouraging pedophilia ? for spreading hate ? for destroying civilizations and nations ? ......its a LONG LONG list.

I think you should stick to claiming moral victories over the few ignorant Indians and Pakistani's you find in pdf.
 
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