Deng Xiaoping - the greatest, Chinese army force military drill 1981

[shuttler]

Disagree. Everyone knows Chairman Mao gave China the real dignity. Deng led China to prosperity, but on a base created by Mao.

hmmm I dont think Mao is a good economic thinker and practitioner. He has contributed to China on other areas but not in the economy of China.

 

[skyknight]

More so than Mao, Sun, or any of the other leaders, Deng can claim the title of "Father of Modern China". He modernized China and took away poverty, and made peace with the West.

Deng's done more for China than any other leader in memory. He turned away an obviously non-functional economic system and is directly responsible for leading millions out of poverty and starvation. The Man is a modern-day hero. His picture should be in Tiananman Square, not Mao.

I wont argue with you, I respect your idea.
But I have to say you know little about the real history of PRC and Chairman Mao.
Many Chinese people, especially farmers and workers, they have different views on Deng.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Even Jiang Zemin is damn corrupt, but he has done many good things that Deng has screwed up.

 

[Beast]

Mao's Cultural revolution brings hardship to all china citizen. It all started because of his greed for power.

 

[Martian2]

Mao Zedong has a legitimate claim to the title of China's Greatest Leader

1. Mao kept Tibet within China's borders in 1950.

2. Mao detonated a 22-kiloton atomic bomb in 1964.

3. Mao detonated a 3.3-megaton thermonuclear bomb in 1967.

4. Mao launched an ICBM in 1971.

With the thermonuclear bomb and ICBM, Mao brought an end to Western imperialism in China. Never again will Western troops march on Chinese soil. Next time, China will retaliate with Second Artillery and imperialists will experience firsthand hundreds of megatons of Chinese thermonuclear power.

In conclusion, it is a matter of personal preference. Mao provided the military power to allow China to develop peacefully and economically. Deng Xiaoping was a genius and enabled China's economy to develop at an unbelievable rate. The massive growth of the Chinese economy into $7.3 trillion provided plenty of surplus funds to develop advanced Chinese military technology, such as the J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter. Both Mao and Deng can legitimately claim the superlative as China's Greatest Leader.

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Crisp high-definition video of China's first atomic blast in 1964

China's atomic blast in 1964 was an amazing achievement because their atomic bomb was designed without supercomputers. Incredibly, in three short years, China made the leap to a 3.3 megaton thermonuclear blast in 1967.

By safeguarding China from foreign invasions through the development of thermonuclear warheads and ICBM technology by 1971, Mao Zedong gave China the breathing room to develop its economy in peace. These two milestones will forever cement Mao Zedong's claim to the title of China's Greatest Leader.

Coupled with Deng Xiaoping's economic reforms, the rest is history. China has grown into an economic and military superpower. "The Chinese people have stood up!"

Here is a video of the 22-kiloton Chinese atomic explosion in 1964.

[HD 1080P] CHINA'S FIRST NUCLEAR WEAPONS TEST @ THE "596" TEST - YouTube

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Here is a video of the 3.3-megaton Chinese thermonuclear explosion in 1967.

3.3-MEGATON HYDROGEN BOMB - YouTube

 

[RoYaL~GuJJaR]

I have always admired the rapid growth by China both economically,Militarily and poverty elevation.

Congrats to you people.

India inverted Deng's Four Modernizations

To appreciate the genius of Deng's Four Modernizations, it is useful to compare Indian policy and contrast the results.

Essentially, India has followed a different path and inverted Deng's Four Modernizations.

Indian policy prioritizes their goals as:

1. National Defense - For a small economy like India, a $40 billion annual military budget is focused on mega-purchases like 126 Rafale fighter jets, Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, hundreds of T-90 tank purchases, etc. It doesn't matter if India is running out of foreign exchange. It's okay if Indian citizens are starving and malnourished as long as the mega-weapon purchases are completed.

2. Science and technology - India pays through the nose for limited military technology transfers. It is difficult to see the actual military technology transfer. India still has not obtained the military technology for the Brahmos engine. Similarly, India cannot build a T-90 indigenously. However, you have to give India credit for its attempts to obtain foreign military technology.

3. Industry - Indian industry is obviously lagging, because India has to issue tenders to foreign companies for carbines and howitzers. The domestic content of the LCA and Arjun Tank are also below 50% by value. The general level of Indian industry is low. However, credit is given to Tata for its ability to build competent cars and trucks.

4. Agriculture - You know India doesn't care much about agriculture, because most of the Indian land is not irrigated.

Agricultural irrigated land (% of total agricultural land) in India

"The Agricultural irrigated land (% of total agricultural land) in India was 35.12 in 2009, according to a World Bank report, published in 2010. The Agricultural irrigated land (% of total agricultural land) in India was reported at 34.66 in 2008, according to the World Bank. Agricultural irrigated land refers to agricultural areas purposely provided with water, including land irrigated by controlled flooding."

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The contrast between the results of Chinese and Indian economic policies are shocking.

Chinese are growing taller with an average of 5'8" for men and 5'4" for women. Modern Chinese are basically as tall as Americans. However, most Indians are malnourished and stunted.

China has a roaring economy with annual trade surpluses and a large foreign exchange war chest. India has a collapsing rupee with no end in sight. However, credit is given to hard working overseas Indians who remit hard currency back to their country. Without this lifeline, India would have been finished a long time ago.

Regarding military technology, China is developing a F-22 competitor in the J-20 Mighty Dragon. The Indians have selected their best option and they're paying the Russians for the T-50/Pak-Fa (which needs to be completely redesigned to be competitive with the J-20 and F-22).

In conclusion, Deng's Four Modernizations are extraordinary when contrasted with other country's ordinary economic policies and priorities. It is unfathomable that any Indian prime minister would have the audacity to elevate agriculture as his country's top priority and relegate national defense into an afterthought.

Since India or another country would never follow Deng's Four Modernizations in the proper order, I predict that we will never see another country explode economically and militarily like China in the last 30 years.

One Question!

Can you please tell me why you Dragged India into this thread ?

 

[skyknight]

hmmm I dont think Mao is a good economic thinker and practioner. He has contributed to China on ither areas but not in the economy of China.

Mao and Zhou had their duty to industrialize China，to make an industrial foundation for China.
But we were not able to achieve easily because we have no colony to exploit and no weak country like“Qing dynasty”to invade and extort，we had no technology, we only have 400 million people, most of them were peasants and with a literacy of 0. The west blockaded us like what they are doing to NK now.All we can do is working hard, eat less ，do more.
Mao and his colleagues had to use Price Scissors to save money for industrialization. Thus our elder generation especially the farmers lived a poor life. But you can't blame the people who planted the apple tree for us just because he was not able to provide you sweet apples when he was alive.

Well, Mao did keep Chinese territory intact for the most part. For that he is to be commended.

That said, Territorial integrity is great, but bringing millions out of poverty and strengthening China and putting it in a position to compete with the US today is a cut above in my book.

Mao gave China its territory, but Deng gave Chinese people dignity and progress.

One thing I have to remind you is , Chairman Mao opened the door to America and the west. Deng only followed his diplomatic policy.
The China-Pakistan，China-Africa friendship is also left by Chairman Mao and Premier Zhou.
PS, Deng allowed the PLA doing business and stopped many military weapon research projects, it damaged China weapon industry and PLA
discipline a lot. We must thank Jang Zheming who prevented the situation becoming worse.
PPS, Deng is a great leader of China, no one will deny the fact.

 

[skyknight]

For members who do not know what the "Old China" is, who do not know the difficulty to rebuild China after anti-Japan war and civil war，
Here is link,

百年风云激荡，看中国如何跃居世界第一大工业国

 

[Martian2]

One Question!

Can you please tell me why you Dragged India into this thread ?

I will use whatever country that I believe serves as a good example for a contrast. For example, I make many comparisons between China, the United States, Russia, Germany, Japan, and occasionally India.

This forum is called world affairs. World affairs mean I will discuss India if I believe it is appropriate.

I can't use the other countries, because they have already modernized. Russia is a petro-state and they're out to sea on modernization.

 

[Martian2]

Mao and Zhou had their duty to industrialize China，to make an industrial foundation for China.
But we were not able to achieve easily because we have no colony to exploit and no weak country like“Qing dynasty”to invade and extort，we had no technology, we only have 400 million people, most of them were peasants and with a literacy of 0. The west blockaded us like what they are doing to NK now.All we can do is working hard, eat less ，do more.
Mao and his colleagues had to use Price Scissors to save money for industrialization. Thus our elder generation especially the farmers lived a poor life. But you can't blame the people who planted the apple tree for us just because he was not able to provide you sweet apples when he was alive.


One thing I have to remind you is , Chairman Mao opened the door to America and the west. Deng only followed his diplomatic policy.
The China-Pakistan，China-Africa friendship is also left by Chairman Mao and Premier Zhou.
PS, Deng allowed the PLA doing business and stopped many military weapon research projects, it damaged China weapon industry and PLA
discipline a lot. We must thank Jang Zheming who prevented the situation becoming worse.
PPS, Deng is a great leader of China, no one will deny the fact.

Taiwan was the key

Actually, the key was Taiwan. Since I am Taiwanese-American of Chinese origin, I have refrained from focusing on this point. It seems like a conflict of interest. Tooting the Taiwanese horn seems unseemly from someone who was actually born in Taipei.

Taiwan invented the concept of the export processing zone (EPZ) in 1966, which are known today as special economic zone (SEZ).

American Chamber of Commerce In Taipei - EXPORT-PROCESSING ZONES

"The first of these, the Kaohsiung Export Processing Zone (KEPZ), was established in December 1966. Because the original 68-hectare harbor-side enclave – the very first EPZ in the Asia-Pacific region – was quickly filled with factories churning out radios, garments, and other items, additional zones were established in Taichung in 1969 and in the Kaohsiung suburb of Nanzte (now often spelled Nanzi) in 1971."

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Like you said, mainland China had no technology and no capital. Sure, Deng designated some areas as special economic zones. However, where did the technology, capital, and management come from? Drum roll please...Taiwan.

This brings up an important point. Though a country today may adopt Deng's Four Modernizations, the results should be less spectacular than China's experience. China has a monster brother "entity"/province offshore with over a hundred thousand U.S. patents in the last 30 years. No other country has this unique advantage sitting offshore.

 

[northeast]

mao's dumb policy has caused the death of tens of millions of chinese.
He is a cruel leader.
actually he isn't a good leader，much worse and inferior than stalin.

 

[Martian2]

mao's policy has caused the death of tens of millions of chinese.
He is a cruel leader.
actually he isn't a good leader，much worse than stalin.

I disagree. Mao tried to quickly industrialize China. His policies failed. However, by the time it became apparent that his policies were a disaster, Mao did not have the food to save millions of Chinese. The West held that power.

The deaths of the tens of millions of Chinese from famine were at the hands of the Western countries. The West had the food that they could lend to China. However, the West refused to loan any food to China. The West could have saved those millions of Chinese, but they intentionally wanted them to die. The West killed those Chinese, not Mao.

You will note that the Soviet Union also experienced a famine a few decades earlier. Though the Soviets were also communists, the West did provide food aid to alleviate the Soviet famine. It wasn't communism that prevented the West from helping China. It was racism.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921#International_relief_effort

"The ICRR managed to feed around ten million people, with the bulk coming from the ARA, funded by the US Congress; the International Save the Children Union, by comparison, managed to feed 375,000 at the height of the operation. The operation was hazardous — several workers died of cholera — and was not without its critics, including the London Daily Express, which first denied the severity of the famine, and then argued that the money would better be spent on poverty in the United Kingdom.[12]
Starving Russian girl during the Russian famine of 1921
Victims of the famine in Buzuluk, Volga Region, next to Saratov

Throughout 1922 and 1923, as famine was still widespread and the ARA was still providing relief supplies, grain was exported by the Soviet government to raise funds for the revival of industry; this seriously endangered Western support for relief, and was one instance of a long-standing Soviet policy of valuing development above the lives of the peasantry. The new Soviet government insisted that if the AYA suspended relief, the ARA arrange a foreign loan for them of about $10,000,000 1923 dollars; the ARA was unable to do this, and continued to ship in food past the grain being sold abroad.[13][14]"

 

[northeast]

I disagree. Mao tried to quickly industrialize China. His policies failed. However, by the time it became apparent that his policies were a disaster, Mao did not have the food to save millions of Chinese. The West held that power.

The deaths of the tens of millions of Chinese from famine were at the hands of the Western countries. The West had the food that they could lend to China. However, the West refused to loan any food to China. The West could have saved those millions of Chinese, but they intentionally wanted them to die. The West killed those Chinese, not Mao.

You will note that the Soviet Union also experienced a famine a few decades earlier. Though the Soveits were also communists, the West did provide aid to alleviate the Soviet famine. It wasn't communism that prevented the West form helping China. It was racism.

the soviet famine is made by stalin to kill ukrainian.
The chinese famine is purely caused by a dumbass.
That's the different.
In mao's period，chinese are as poor as in the KMT's rule.
the great leap forward is completely a joke.mao made people to break their
pans and pots to make iron，then find it's useless.
It's the most stupid policy that I know.Only dumbass stupid can make such policy.

 

[Martian2]

the soviet famine is made by stalin to kill ukrainian.
The chinese famine is purely caused by a dumbass.
That's the different.
In mao's period，chinese are as poor as in the KMT's rule.
the great leap forward is completely a joke.mao made people to break their
pans and pots to make iron，then find it's useless.
It's the most stupid policy that I know.Only dumbass stupid can make such policy.

Mao kept Tibet within China in 1950.

Mao fought the Indians in the Sino-Indian War of 1962 to preserve southwestern Chinese territorial integrity.

Mao detonated the atomic bomb in 1964.

Mao detonated the thermonuclear bomb in 1967.

Mao fought the Soviets in the Sino-Soviet border war of 1969 to preserve northern Chinese territorial integrity.

Mao launched an ICBM in 1971.

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Looking at Mao's accomplishments, he is clearly an outstanding Chinese patriot. He tried his best to defend Chinese territory and interests. Chinese people have been safe from foreign invasions for the last 40 years due to the weapons of mass destruction developed under Mao.

Only an ingrate would cast aspersions on China's Greatest Leader. He made the Chinese economic boom possible by ending the era of foreign imperialism in China. There's a reason that Mao's picture looks over Tiananmen Square. The Chinese people acknowledge Mao's achievements on behalf of the Chinese people.

 

[northeast]

Mao kept Tibet within China in 1950.

Mao fought the Indians in the Sino-Indian War of 1962 to preserve southwestern Chinese territorial integrity.

Mao detonated the atomic bomb in 1964.

Mao detonated the thermonuclear bomb in 1967.

Mao fought the Soviets in the Sino-Soviet border war of 1969 to preserve northern Chinese territorial integrity.

Mao launched an ICBM in 1971.

----------

Looking at Mao's accomplishments, he is clearly an outstanding Chinese patriot. He tried his best to defend Chinese territory and interests. Chinese people have been safe from foreign invasions for the last 40 years due to the weapons of mass destruction developed under Mao.

Only an ingrate would cast aspersions on China's Greatest Leader. He made the Chinese economic boom possible by ending the era of foreign imperialism in China.

lol，those are not his accomplishments，those are the ccp's accomplishments.
He even give 长白山 to north korea as a present.that's his accomplishment.