Democracy Wins!

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

OK guys, calm down.

There is absolutely no reason to get personal.

Refute, disagree, agree with the other's argument, or ignore it.

I understand that there are a lot of emotions involved here, but this is a discussion forum, and the forum will allow ALL views to be presented, provided they are prevented in a civil manner.

By all means point out that certain views are not substantiated (as was done with Shez) but leave it at that and do not get personal.

Criticizm of the Pakistani courts will be allowed just as criticizm of the US Supreme Court is allowed when Americans (left or right) disagree with its decisions. It just has to remain civil, and members are expected to back up their claims with sources.

 

[qsaark]

Come on Agno, he is openly accusing the CJP and the SCoP for cutting a deal with the GoP; has he any proof? Would you allow me if I start posting stuff without some kind of substantial proof? Its not about emotions, it’s about deliberate attempt of maligning the Judiciary and the honorable Justices.

 

[SSGPA1]

The same court and the same CJP allowed Gen. Musharraf to remain in uniform and he is the same person who administered the oath of Gen. Musharraf as the head of the State. If he can deal with Gen. Musharraf then why can't he deal with teh present govt?

The same CJP and SCoP go after Zardari for NRO but why is there so little action for other NRO beneficeries??

CJP can take suo motto action on traffic problems in Karachi but he can't take suo motto against the wealth of NS.

There are names missing from the LHC list and I believe it is a compromise. This is my point of view based on previous history of our courts.

 

[SSGPA1]

Come on Agno, he is openly accusing the CJP and the SCoP for cutting a deal with the GoP; has he any proof? Would you allow me if I start posting stuff without some kind of substantial proof? Its not about emotions, it’s about deliberate attempt of maligning the Judiciary and the honorable Justices.

I am sure you have evidence for all of this post # 15 below:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...5-pervez-musharraf-hints-return-politics.html

Written by QSAARK:

Well he was not a fine example, but a finest example of an 'imposed' leader who 'forcefully' guided his nation to an ultimate doom. Would you like to highlight those Pakistani interests, which he served first? OK, let me help you here.

1. The Ex-PM Sharif and Ex-PM Vajpaee were negotiating for the peace in Lahore, and the renegade Musharraf was sending troops (without taking into confidence the Corp Commanders, the Services Chiefs of Air force and Navy, the PM, the Cabinet) and sabotaging those peace talks between India and Pakistan; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

2. When the PM dismissed him (with full constitutional and legal authority) from his post due to the disobedience and unprofessionalism he showed during Kargil, he reinstated himself unconstitutionally and illegally with the help of the other renegade Corp Commanders and threw the elected PM into the jail and even got him punished in the false accounts by the lower courts; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

3. He allowed the American troops in his country, and gave them airfields to carry out attacks on the neighboring Islamic country; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

4. He sold out undisclosed number of Pakistanis (innocent until proven guilty) to the Americans without first trying them in the Pakistani courts of law; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

5. He instructed his serving General of the political wing of ISI to rig the general elections and brought PML(Q) and so-called Islamic parties into power, and used this illegitimate parliament as a rubber stamp to further his ambitions; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

6. He, through the help of his illegitimate Parliament (result of rigging) and sold-out/oppressed Judges (result of LFO), adulterated the constitution and introduced clauses in order to achieve full amnesty for his unconstitutional actions and illegal rule; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

7. He mishandled the Lal Mosque issue, which resulted in the loss of life (both the civilians and the Army personnel) and resulted in a widespread anger against the regime, and the Army; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

8. He, through his banker PM, Shoukat Aziz sold out the profitable national assets on the rates far below their actual value and not to the highest bidders. Only Pakistan Steel managed to escape and that too because of the intervention of the honorable Chief Justice; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

9. Under his regime, the nation was deliberately and at institutional level misguided on the economical condition/progress. The government’s coffers were artificially inflated due to the money sent home by the overseas Pakistanis post 9/11 and which had nothing to do with the economical policies of his or his banker PM Shoukat Aziz. His banker PM introduced novel and totally misguiding scales of measuring the economical growth, that were, number of cars running on the roads and the cell phones sold; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

10. He dismissed the honorable Justices, put them and their family members under house arrests, and tried to destroy the judiciary; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

11. He patronized a known terrorist lingual organization in Karachi, hired the terrorist elements of this organization to hijack Karachi in order to stop the visit of the CJP and publicly supported their terrorizing actions that included a dozen deaths on May 11; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

12. He mishandled the Balochistan issue, gave a free hand to the Army and intelligence agencies to abduct anybody anywhere. None of the abductees ever presented into the courts of law or given a chance of legal defense. Sardar Akbar Bugti was extra-judicially murdered and his rival clan was ‘awarded’ the right to rule Sui and Dera Bugti; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

13. He introduced the black ordinance called NRO to cut a shameful deal with the exiled political leaders, pardoned them for all their corruption even murder charges in return of the extension of his presidency; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

14. He mischievously tried to bag the credit for freeing up the media which in reality was the result of the selfless struggle and sacrifices largely by the press and to some extent electronic media and lots of pressure from the free-media-obsessed Western countries; was that the Pakistani interest he served first?

Now, it’s your turn to highlight what he did for the subcontinent?

 

[qsaark]

The same court and the same CJP allowed Gen. Musharraf to remain in uniform and he is the same person who administered the oath of Gen. Musharraf as the head of the State. If he can deal with Gen. Musharraf then why can't he deal with teh present govt?

And the same CJP and the same SCoP brought an end to the disgraceful rule of an imposed dictator. Had he had resigned like the other honorable Justice following the LFO, Musharraf was still imposed on this nation. I am glad he handled the situation well and ‘lived to fight tomorrow’.

The same CJP and SCoP go after Zardari for NRO but why is there so little action for other NRO beneficeries??

Again the same ignorance; I am tired of explaining you how things work in the courts, not only in the Pakistani courts but the courts of every country. What action did you see against Zardari? The courts only give jurisdiction; it is implemented by the executive branch. The honorable Justices did their job, now it is the turn of the executive to make sure that the action is taken as instructed in the jurisdiction.

CJP can take suo motto action on traffic problems in Karachi but he can't take suo motto against the wealth of NS.

Why should he take any action on NS? If you have so much problem with NS, go ahead, file a petition. This you will not do, because you believe in finding excuses and slinging mud on others but not taking initiative yourself.

There are names missing from the LHC list and I believe it is a compromise. This is my point of view based on previous history of our courts.

Your belief is your opinion which carries no weight in the absence of supporting evidence.

I am sure you have evidence for all of this post # 15 below:

This is common knowledge hence need no evidence. Have you ever seen a person who asks for the evidence of the existence of day and night? Thank God, most are intelligent enough not to ask for the evidence of common knowledge, though exceptions (such as you) do exist.

 

[ejaz007]

Zardari was adamant till the 11th hour
Friday, February 19, 2010
By Tariq Butt

ISLAMABAD: Even until the famous 11th hour, just before the prime minister-chief justice talks, a belligerent and obstinate President Asif Ali Zardari was fuming and telling Barrister Aitzaz Ahsan that he would never accept the SC proposals and would keep fighting and face all the consequences.

Presidential sources said about two hours before the crucial PM-CJ meeting began on Wednesday; Zardari was furious, adamant and unrepentant, refusing to accept any compromise or a U-turn on the critical issue.

Barrister Aitzaz Ahsan, who infused sanity and sense in the highest official quarters to break the logjam because the government’s stand was unconstitutional and illegal, had a 90-minute meeting with Zardari on Wednesday prior to the premier-chief justice session, but he found him totally inflexible, a presidency source told The News.

Aitzaz Ahsan was not willing to discuss the extremely positive role that he played in breaking the deadlock by explaining to the president and the prime minister that the official stand on the judges’ appointment was not in accordance with the Constitution and the case law.

But he said on some TV channels that the president and the PM were given wrong advice on the judges issue which was a direct criticism of the trio of legal hardliners who are close to the president.

The presidency source said that Aitzaz Ahsan left the Aiwan-e-Sadr in disbelief and with the fear that the critical prime minister-chief justice meeting taking place two hours after his session with Zardari might collapse.

However, other sources said that Aitzaz Ahsan’s discussion with Zardari and some subsequent back-to-back sessions of the president with his close aides forced him to change his mind. They compared the president’s rigid stand on the judges’ appointment against the chief justice’s recommendations till the last minute with that of his stance on the restoration of the deposed judges in March last year. He finally succumbed both the times.

A Prime Minister House source said that Gilani held telephonic conversations with Aitzaz Ahsan more than once since Saturday to break the standoff over the judges’ appointment despite the fact that the premier was delivering hard-hitting speeches in the National Assembly.

“Gilani was amenable since word go and suggested to everyone, who talked to him for resolving the issue, to go to the presidency and persuade Zardari into accepting the chief justice’s recommendations,” the source said.

Sources said that while on the one hand the president’s hard line legal advisors including Law Minister Dr Babar Awan, Advisor Latif Khosa and Senate Chairman Farooq H Naek kept urging Zardari not to retreat, on the other hand Aitzaz Ahsan tried to prevail upon the prime minister to hurriedly break the ice before it was too late, when the crisis touched its zenith. But no meeting of the hawks and reconciliation seekers was ever held either at the presidency or the Prime Minister House since Saturday, they said.

According to the sources, there was not even a single contact between these two sets of people, belonging to the same party and the government, except a couple of telephonic contacts between Dr Babar Awan and Aitzaz Ahsan to discuss the issue.

Although Attorney General Anwar Mansoor and Aitzaz Ahsan separately held the same opinion, no session between them was held during the days of heightened crisis, sources said. However, the two briefly met for the first time at the dinner hosted by the chief justice in honour of Justice Khalilur Rehman Ramday where the prime minister had also gate-crashed, which finally led to the resolution of the issue.

Saner elements in the Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) feel that the judges’ appointment issue inflicted a massive damage on their party, but say that the final outcome only helped “cut political losses” and stemmed further deterioration of the executive-judiciary relations.

They say realization dawned upon the government, though belatedly, that it was advisable to appoint the judges now otherwise a more stringent judgment from the Supreme Court was on the cards and then it would be left with no option but to nominate justices precisely as per Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry’s recommendations.

Apart from other positive and negative factors that emerged during the prevalent high tension, the tussle between the two dominant groups of lawyers gained an added significance and became more visible.

On one side was the Hamid Khan group, whose candidate, Qazi Anwar, had won as the president of the Supreme Court Bar Association (SCBA) and on the other was Aitzaz Ahsan and others.

The Hamid Khan group was on a collision course with the government for not accepting the chief justice’s recommendations. But Aitzaz Ahsan was on a conciliatory mission. The SCBA had withdrawn an earlier countrywide strike call on pressure from several prominent lawyers. It had also called for another strike on Thursday to protest the non-acceptance of Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry’s recommendations, which was cancelled after the resolution of the issue.

Qazi Anwar, however, clarified that no strike call had been given for Thursday and only resolutions were to be adopted but even that was not needed in the end. It is obvious that the lawyers’ protest did build up pressure on the government to come to terms.

Zardari was adamant till the 11th hour

 

[ejaz007]

Chief justice administers oath to SC judges
Friday, February 19, 2010
By Sohail Khan

ISLAMABAD: Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry on Thursday administered oath to two newly-appointed judges of the Supreme Court and one ad hoc judge.

Justice Saqib Nisar and Justice Asif Saeed Khosa took oath as judges of the apex court while Justice Khalilur Rehman Ramday took oath as ad hoc judge for a period of one year. With the elevation of two judges from the LHC to the SC, and appointment of a retired judge of the Supreme Court, Khalilur Rehman Ramday, as ad hoc judge, the strength of existing judges of the apex court comes to 19 with two ad hoc judges.

The oath taking ceremony, held at the Supreme Court building here, was attended by judges of the Supreme Court, the attorney general for Pakistan, the federal law secretary, the Election Commission secretary, the director general of the Federal Judicial Academy, representatives of the Bar, prominent lawyers, officers of the Law & Justice Commission of Pakistan and law officers of the court.

Agencies add: As many as 22 newly-appointed additional judges of the Lahore High Court will take oath of their offices today (Friday). LHC Chief Justice Khawaja Muhammad Sharif will administer oath to theses 22 judges. With the appointment of 22 judges, the number of LHC judges has risen to 44.

Chief justice administers oath to SC judges

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Come on Agno, he is openly accusing the CJP and the SCoP for cutting a deal with the GoP; has he any proof? Would you allow me if I start posting stuff without some kind of substantial proof? Its not about emotions, it’s about deliberate attempt of maligning the Judiciary and the honorable Justices.

My point is that you can counter his comments by asking for substantiation and pointing out the lack of it or refuting his arguments.

I do not think that attacking him is helpful. If he is unable to substantiate his comments, his (or whoever) argument stands exposed as flawed - that is it.

 

[SSGPA1]

And the same CJP and the same SCoP brought an end to the disgraceful rule of an imposed dictator. Had he had resigned like the other honorable Justice following the LFO, Musharraf was still imposed on this nation. I am glad he handled the situation well and ‘lived to fight tomorrow’.

On one hand you claim that CJP has no interest in politics and on the other hand you accept the fact that he played politics.

The so called dictator was supported by CJP for 7 yrs plus. The role of CJP is to dispense justice and intrepret constitution and avoid playing political games. So what changed after 7 yrs of ji hazoori?

I tell you what happend, CJP is probably also a closet Taliban like many others and when Lal Masjid happened, he couldn't bear it and joined forces with NS.

Your support of CJP is not about his honesty or anything else but it is his opposition to Gen. Musharraf and you will contniue to do so till you get a closet Taliban in power.

Why should he take any action on NS? If you have so much problem with NS, go ahead, file a petition. This you will not do, because you believe in finding excuses and slinging mud on others but not taking initiative yourself.

Trust me I have been trying to do that and I have been told by lawyers to wait. So I am waiting till my lawyers tell me to execute the petition. No I am not a couch potato like you buddy, I am an action oriented person and I do take action. Another example is my page at facebook to gather support for resignation of Pervaiz Ashraf. SO i don't just sit and complain I take action!

Pervez Musharraf | Facebook

This is common knowledge hence need no evidence. Have you ever seen a person who asks for the evidence of the existence of day and night? Thank God, most are intelligent enough not to ask for the evidence of common knowledge, though exceptions (such as you) do exist.

Oh Lord have mercy, everything you fantacise is either common knowledge or others are advised to believe it.

Try that selling to someone as narrow minded as yourself pls.

 

[Awesome]

It's been a happy ending for democracy. The faith in the democratic process would have been stronger. No matter how bad the democratic leaders are the process ensures that they would ultimately bow to public pressure.

Congratulations to all of Pakistan!

 

[qsaark]

On one hand you claim that CJP has no interest in politics and on the other hand you accept the fact that he played politics.

Do not put words in my mouth. I never said anything like this. I said “Had he had resigned like the other honorable Justice following the LFO, Musharraf was still imposed on this nation. I am glad he handled the situation well and ‘lived to fight tomorrow’.”

The so called dictator was supported by CJP for 7 yrs plus. The role of CJP is to dispense justice and intrepret constitution and avoid playing political games. So what changed after 7 yrs of ji hazoori?

As I said before, he played his cards well and outmaneuvered the dictator and his clowns when the right time came. He could have not achieved what he achieved had he had resigned like other honorable justices. For how long the founder of the nation M.A. Jinnah continued to work with the British before he finally showed his real teeth? In the 1940s, the Congress was calling for the ‘Quit India Movement’, yet Jinnah decided to side with the crown and even asked his followers to help the British in their war efforts. It is stupid to fight when the time is not right; you gain enough power before embarking on any adventure. The ‘Sulah e Huaibya’ is also an example of this attitude ‘live today, fight tomorrow’. Now don’t tell me that Jinnah or even Mohammed (PBUH) were doing ‘Ji hoozoris’ of their adversaries.

I tell you what happend, CJP is probably also a closet Taliban like many others and when Lal Masjid happened, he couldn't bear it and joined forces with NS.

Again you are accusing him for something you have no proof of; hence debating on this is a fruitless effort and waste of my time.

Your support of CJP is not about his honesty or anything else but it is his opposition to Gen. Musharraf and you will contniue to do so till you get a closet Taliban in power.

My support for CJP is not for his honesty or other characteristics; but for his position as the head of the judicial system. I am less interested in him and far more in the judicial institution quite contrary to you who is more into a person and cares least about the system.

Trust me I have been trying to do that and I have been told by lawyers to wait. So I am waiting till my lawyers tell me to execute the petition. No I am not a couch potato like you buddy, I am an action oriented person and I do take action. Another example is my page at facebook to gather support for resignation of Pervaiz Ashraf. SO i don't just sit and complain I take action!

Good for you, when this works out do let us know and you’ll have my full support on this.

Oh Lord have mercy, everything you fantacise is either common knowledge or others are advised to believe it.

Try that selling to someone as narrow minded as yourself pls.

I am not asking anyone to believe me; I am only a narrator of the events that have taken place in the near past hence they are a common knowledge. Using sarcastic language and lacing your reply with insignificant ‘smilies’ will not change the fact that these events did happen and were documented. I am not selling here anything to anybody, rather narrating the events as they occurred.

 

[SSGPA1]

As I said before, he played his cards well and outmaneuvered the dictator and his clowns when the right time came. He could have not achieved what he achieved had he had resigned like other honorable justices. For how long the founder of the nation M.A. Jinnah continued to work with the British before he finally showed his real teeth? In the 1940s, the Congress was calling for the ‘Quit India Movement’, yet Jinnah decided to side with the crown and even asked his followers to help the British in their war efforts. It is stupid to fight when the time is not right; you gain enough power before embarking on any adventure. The ‘Sulah e Huaibya’ is also an example of this attitude ‘live today, fight tomorrow’. Now don’t tell me that Jinnah or even Mohammed (PBUH) were doing ‘Ji hoozoris’ of their adversaries.

Prophet Mohammed PBUH was the leader of a nation and he took a decission and set an example for us.

Jinnah was supportive of a united India and he changed his political POV after getting dishearted by the attitude of Congress.

CJP is no political leader and his role is to simply ensure the performance of his deprtment period. I want Zardari out but not by targeted actions of the CJP because that makes him and the judiciary bias.

Today, in Sindh there are people against Zardari but that will change if CJP remains one sided. I was the first one to congratulate CJP and his supporters on this forum but not for one sided actions.

CJP needs to take action against the corruption of NS espicially when he takes suo motto on other actions. CJP also need to stop interfering in the running of the govt as that is not his job.

A very good read for blind supporters of the CJP:

The judiciary seems to want to do the executive’s job, the executive seems to want to wish judicial oversight away and yet neither can succeed because of the framework within which they are operating.


DAWN.COM | Columnists | Another week, another clash

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

SSGPA:

I am not sure I care that the CJ took an oath under Musharraf and supported him - I care more about what kind of CJ he is now and what kind of a court he wishes to run. The Iftikhar Chaudhry that legitimized Musharraf's rule is long gone, he was gone when he first started to challenge government deals under the Musharraf regime for fraud, and the old Ifitikhar Chaudhry was definitely gone when he was removed for allegedly being independent enough to rule Musharraf's position as unconstitutional.

He was acting against an extremely powerful dictator, Musharraf, when there was no ocean swell of support for him on the streets and he was not perceived as some sort of judicial hero by the masses.

Were Zardari even now to change his spots the way the CJ did, and start implementing policies that actually strengthen institutions and improve governance, I would support Zardari as well.

For me it is important to understand what these individuals stand for in the present and what they do in the present - and if what they stand for in the present is good, meaningful and noble, then I care not what they stood for in the past.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

CJP needs to take action against the corruption of NS espicially when he takes suo motto on other actions. CJP also need to stop interfering in the running of the govt as that is not his job.

Corruption cases against Zardari and other PPP members are the focus of the court because the constitutionality of the NRO was challenged in the court by petitioners, is that not true?

So what is preventing someone from filing a petition challenging Nawaz Sharif based on cases against him?

There is in fact a key missing link here - the presence of an autonomous and independent investigative and prosecuting branch. The NAB is supposed to play such a role under the new constitutional reforms being deliberated, where it will be taken out from under the Interior Ministry and its head appointed by a joint parliamentary committee.

Only when we have both those institutions, an independent judiciary and an independent NAB/FIA will we truly be able to pursue and apply justice effectively.

Take for example a hypothetical case of the SC taking suo moto notice of the Feudal prisons in Sindh and Punjab and directing the authorities to raid them, arrest the Feudals, free the peasant slaves and confiscate the property - does anyone believe that either the PPP or PML-N would act to implement the SC's order?

Both parties are riddled with feudals - and change will only be brought about when we have an independent judiciary and an independent NAB and FIA.

 

[SSGPA1]

For me it is important to understand what these individuals stand for in the present and what they do in the present - and if what they stand for in the present is good, meaningful and noble, then I care not what they stood for in the past.

It is good to see your logic Agno. I am sure Gen. Musharraf can count on your support when he enter politics as he is no longer a military man.