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Democracy is not the way for Pakistan!

please tell me which language is indian's mother language?

India does not have a "mother language." All Indians do not have the same "mother language;" Indians from different parts of India have different "mother language."

The official language, that is largely used, is English.
 
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Please stick to the topic: Democracy is not the way for Pakistan!
 
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yeah ,i think most important is to develop the economy of pakistan, to draw foreign investment, to costruct facilities and to enhance education

Wars can be prevented just as surely as they can be provoked...and we who fail to prevent them, must share the guilt for the dead. -General Omar N. Bradley-(1893-1982)
 
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I think it is avery lame excuse. When have we ever allowed democracy to flourish in Pakistan. We are too impatient and want the first Government to gewt the formula right and establish an ideal state. With all due respects to the Poster, Chinese system is also not ideal. If it had been , half the world would have adopted it. It is simply a case of "the Grass being greener on the other side".
I willagree that at the inset Democracy has never been successful, but we need to give it time. For instance, Whty did Musharraf have to intervene in 99. If he had intervened to safeguard the country, then why did he not hand back the power to the representatives in 90 days. To say that there was no corruption during military rule would be a great fallacy. We need the process to flourish and a free judiciary, to safewguard the rights of the people. Dross like Zardari and Nawaz Sharif will eventually get cleared out and we will have the right people coming through the system.
WaSalam
Araz


Araz,

I couldn't agree with you more. While I am not competent to pontificate what is best suited for Pakistan or any other country for that matter, there is no substitute for the people deciding what they want. We Asians have been ruled for so long that somewhere down the line we have evolved a system where there are only two options - either the ruler or the ruled.

The ruler may even be a party or an organisation ( eg Army) who develops such a stranglehold on the minds of the people that they get brainwashed into believing that what is happening to them is the best option. How can one know any different till it is tried out. It just may be possible that the existing systems of governance may be the best for countries like Myanmar, China & even Pakistan ( military rule), but an alternate form of governance must be given a fair test.

Politicians are the same the world over, I'd go a step further to say that RULERS are the same world over. They wish to perpetuate themselves & repeat the same thing so often to themselves they the are convinced that they are the last bastion between anarchy & stability. Hence there is a need for a structured system wherein they :

a) Are made accountable for what they do.
b) Do not feel that no one can replace them.
c) The people carry out an audit of their actions periodically in the form of elections.

For this it is imperative that the "systems' of governance take precedence over the person/party/ organization. The conflict between the judiciary & the General in Pakistan is an example.

One in a comfort zone, no one likes change.. this explains why the Gen like all others before him did not hand over power once they usurped it. I am not adding other issues like making money etc as added incentives to power.

My suggestion is that democracy like all other forms of governance must be given a shot . How can you expect a child to run if you admonish him /her each time they fall ? let politicians also make mistakes..they also behave themselves when they know they have to go back to the masses after a few years to get re-elected provided other organs of the state like judiciary etc are firmly in place.

If they are bad , corrupt & take the nation to the brink of disaster, so does a military dictator or a party that runs a one party state.

Lastly,if I am correct Mr Jinnah want Pakistan to be a democratic country.. was he wrong ?
 
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Pakistan is a REPUBLIC - democracy is supposed to mean REPRESENTATIVE governance - all this other BS, Judicial radicals who want to legislate from bench, legislators who want to govern - radicals in the media who want nothing but to disable the country's defence forces and precipitate civil war -- none of this could possibly be what M. Jinnah would have wanted.

Exactly what is that a LEGISLATURE does? Pass laws?? What exactly is that the Judiciary is charged to?? Make politicla speeches, parade about in the streets? get involved in the business of business??

If governnance as it is carried out in China can help Pakistan formulate it's own system, then bring it on -- many people say that Pakistan has a Westminster style of government - rubbish!!, why did you see these kind of problems, this kindof behaviour in the English parliament or judiciary??

In Pakistan, politicians understand and play at power grab and self enrichment - that is neither democracy nor republic.
 
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Quite frankly we can't have democracy as pretty much no nation in the world has democracy.

The only democracy that works is the kind that puts a set establishment in power. If you're lucky your establishment is smart and will help you excel.

The US is a good example. Only one track policy makers ever come to power. Do you think the people of US are voting any better than the Pakistanis? Just like them we too can be told to vote for the right people and then we'd be "true" democracy.
 
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Just like them we too can be told to vote for the right people and then we'd be "true" democracy.

But see, that is the key here, especially for a multi-ethnic state.

The people may be influenced one way or another to vote a certain way, or to support certain policies (Iraq war and how the Bush Admin. essentially led the media and the American public by the nose), but at the end of the day the people need to feel that it was their vote that put certain parties and individuals into power, that they had/have a chance to change things through suffrage.

When you take away the excuse of "elections are rigged", "policies are manipulated by the yanks/establishment" whatever, people will get the chance to analyze and choose and take responsibility for their choices.

Why is it important for the new GoP to go through this exercise of negotiating with the Taliban once again, when those of us better informed know how blatantly they violated the previous agreements and unilaterally attacked Pakistani security forces and civilians?

It is important because the Pakistani public has to realize that their elected officials are implementing their demands. So long as the GoP can keep the process transparent, free of perceptions of "pursuing American diktat", and keep the media and the people in the loop to a certain extent, one would hope that when this house of cards comes crashing down again, the Pakistani public will have to deal with the realization that the policy they supported was flawed, it failed, and a different approach must be tried.

This sense of ownership, sense of responsibility for ones decisions, which is only built up over time as institutions mature and people build up confidence in the system, I would argue is the most essential attribute of democracy, and it is what makes continuity in democracy (regardless of the choices people make through the electoral process) so essential for Pakistan, especially at this juncture in our history.
 
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Democracy? What is it supposed to mean?? Are the media moguls and the radicals who imagine that freedom means freedom to wreck, to create havoc, the persons to who the politicians are accountable to?? Does it mean a Chief Justice who is politically partisan??

Just what the heck does democracy mean??


The editorial below from the Frontier post dated 01jun2008

What parliament for?

What have the voters elected their lawmakers for? For munching pistachios and eating almonds? Over three months have passed since the poll, and the new parliament has hardly transacted any business worth the name. No legislative bill has it discussed; no law has it enacted. And yet the new leadership had come promising that it would make the parliament supreme. Even now, it keeps chanting this mantra. But what kind of parliamentary supremacy is this leadership practising that the issues of supreme national import that the people’s elected representatives should be deciding are being decided outside this august house?

And, worse, the lawmakers sitting in the house have not the foggiest idea of what is being discussed and decided outside; not even do the new leadership’s closet allies. Still worse, a politico who from the poll has not emerged even as an unrivalled provincial leader of Punjab has the gumption to flaunt the airs of a popular national leader and some kind of a national hero, peremptorily dictating the agenda for the nation and setting his terms and conditions for its fulfillment.

More gallingly, he has deceptively catapulted his personal grouses and grudges to cloak them into a national agenda. And dissuaded not a wee bit by the turmoil this unfortunate nation will imminently be thrown in for his mad pursuit for settling personal scores, he is pushing ahead blindly for the fructification of his self-serving agenda. Quite cleverly, he has also entrapped the PPP leadership in his devious contrivance, to remain bogged down in it irretrievably, and come out of it badly bruised, if at all. Since the PPP is in the driving seat, it must see through this game plan of this politico before it is too late. Evidently, the poverty-stricken, unemployment-bitten, disease-ridden multitudes of this deeply-wronged nation are aghast. As adversities in battalions are adding to the huge pile of their miseries, they find the new leadership stuck up with issues that have no immediate direct bearing on their difficult lives; not with the issues of their urgent needs and pressing grievances to bring them some relief to their beleaguered tormented lives. They are increasingly getting impatient and restive. They had hoped for a change with the change of leadership to their unenviable miserable plight. But, thanks to the perfidious ploys of this politico, their high hopes are receding fast into oblivion.

A mass-scale wave of public despondency, frustration, hopelessness and despair has set in and is visibly escalating fast. The net loser of this public disenchantment with the new leadership will be none else but the PPP for being in the saddle, while he himself will be quite a gainer for having craftily walked out of the coalition government at the centre to evade the inevitable public slur for the new leadership’s failure to provide the people the relief that they had hoped for.

The PPP thus stands in dire need to review its act and straighten it up, no lesser in its own political interests. For this, the party leadership must define clearly what its government has to do and what has the parliament to do. Clearly, neither the turfed-out judges’ reinstatement nor the constitutional package, on account of which the PPP is drawing so much of tendentious censure, calculatedly inspired misgivings and avoidable public consternation, was the PPP’s exclusive problem; not even of the PML (N) or the PPP’s ruling allies, for that matter. These two are essentially matters of national concern; and the right forum for their resolution could only be the parliament, where sit the lawmakers of various political parties and of various denominations, each with its own votebank and with its own public support base.

It is this all-inclusive forum of the people’s elected representatives which, by every definition, is competent enough to decide issues of national dimensions and national ramifications. Even now when these two issues come before the parliament, as they have to be, these predictably will have no smooth sailing.

Yet the collective wisdom of the lawmakers will surely throw up solutions of wider acceptability and of wider gratification. Not unreasonably, the new leadership, when in political wilderness, was pleading to make the parliament supreme. And not implausibly was this leadership critical of the retired general for keeping the parliament out of the state counsels, for giving it a short shrift in the making of state policies and decisions, and for ploughing his lonely furrows in running the state. But now that this leadership is ruling the roost it should not be doing what it then said should not be done; and practise not what it then deemed wrong and unacceptable.

Parliament it should give the rightful place that is due to it by every canon. Inclusiveness, not exclusiveness, it must understand, makes well for tackling the ticklish issues, for formulating sound policies, and for taking sane decisions. The PPP leadership would do well to let the parliament decide policy issues and contentious matters. After all, the lawmakers are there not to sit and rubberstamp the decisions taken outside the house.

The taxpayer is paying them up fatly to apply their best minds to and deliberate vigorously on matters of great national import and of great public concern. Instead, the PPP leadership employs all its best capabilities to address the people’s urgent needs and demands of bread and butter. It is for this that the people will judge it and it is for this that the electorate would go for it in the next poll; the people will reward it if it has done good to them; they will be very unkindly to it if they deem it has not been good to them.
 
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  “美国黑人的投票权到1965年才真正开始;瑞士是到了1971年,所有的妇女才获得了投票权,瑞士才实现了真正意义上的普选。如果要推动西方式的民主化,西方自己首先要向别人解释清楚,为什么你们自己真正的民主化过程毫无例外都是渐进的,都是在现代化之后才实现的?”
    国人看世界:我见到的西方民主
    论坛:不能把民主的什么东西都看作是“西方的”
    求是:如何看待西方民主制度? 照搬从来不能成功
     今年6月下旬,在德国慕尼黑郊外一个风景如画的避暑山庄,知名的马歇尔论坛举行了一场中国问题研讨会,由笔者主讲中国的崛起及其国际影响。演讲后,一个欧洲学者问道:“您认为中国什么时候可以实现民主化?”笔者反问:“您的民主化概念怎么界定?”他颇有点不耐烦:“这很简单:一人一票、普选、政党轮替。”说完,还补充了一句,“至少这是我们欧洲的价值观。”
     笔者表示完全理解和尊重欧洲价值观,但随即问他:“您有没有想到中国也有自己的价值观,其中之一就是实事求是,英文叫做seek truth from facts(从事实中寻找真理)。”笔者接着说:“我们从事实中寻找了半天,就是没有找到发展中国家通过您所说的这种民主化而实现现代化的例子。我走访了一百多个国家,还没有找到。”这时,一个美国学者大声说:“印度。”笔者问他:“您去过印度吗?”他说:“没有。”笔者回答:“我去过两次,而且从北到南,从东到西都去过。我的感觉是印度比中国要落后至少20年,甚至30年。我在孟买和加尔各答两个城市里看到的贫困现象,比我在中国20年看到的加在一起都要多。”
     又有学者说:“博茨瓦纳?”笔者同样问道:“你去过没有?”他说:“没有”。笔者答道:“我去过,还见过博茨瓦纳总统。那是一个人口才170万的小国。博茨瓦纳确实实行了西方民主制度,而且没有出现过大的动乱。这个国家资源非常丰富,民族成分相对单一,但即使有这么好的条件,博茨瓦纳至今仍是一个非常贫穷的发展中国家,人均寿命不到40岁。”
     “那么哥斯达黎加呢?”又有学者问。“你去过这个国家吗?”回答还是“没有”。笔者的回答是:“我2002年访问了这个国家。那也是一个小国,人口才400多万。相对于中美洲其他国家,哥斯达黎加政治比较稳定,经济也相对繁荣。这个国家90%以上的人口是欧洲人的后裔,各方面起点不低。可惜哥斯达黎加至今仍是一个相当落后的国家,而且贫富差距很大,人口中20%还处于贫困状态,首都圣何塞给人的感觉更像个大村庄,有很多的铁皮屋、贫民窟。”
     之后笔者干脆反问:“让我举出西方民主化模式在发展中国家不成功的例子?举10个、20个、还是30个?还是更多?”我简单谈了一下美国创建的民主国家菲律宾、美国黑人自己在非洲创立的民主国家利比里亚、美国家门口的海地,还有今天的伊拉克。此时,有一些听众开始点头,一些人摇头,但就是没有人起来反驳。笔者便再追问了一个问题:“在座的都来自发达国家,你们能不能给我举出一个例子,不用两个,说明一下哪一个今天的发达国家是在实现现代化之前,或者在实现现代化的过程之中搞普选的?这里论坛的哪位能举出哪怕一个?”还是没有人回答。我说:“美国黑人的投票权到1965年才真正开始;瑞士是到了1971年,所有的妇女才获得了投票权,瑞士才实现了真正意义上的普选。如果要推动西方式的民主化,西方自己首先要向别人解释清楚,为什么你们自己真正的民主化过程毫无例外都是渐进的,都是在现代化之后才实现的?这个问题研究透了,我们就有共同语言了。”
     我还顺便讲了一个自己的假设:“如果中国今天实行普选会是一种什么样的结果呢?假如万幸中国没有四分五裂,没有打起内战的话,我们可能会选出一个农民政府,因为农民的人数最多。我不是对农民有歧视,我们往上追溯最多三四代,大家都是农民。我们不会忘记我们自己农民的根,我们不歧视农民,不歧视农村来的人。但是连领导过无数次农民运动的毛泽东主席都说过:严重的问题在于教育农民。一个农民政府是无法领导一个伟大的现代化事业的,这点你们比我还要清楚。”
     当时因为还有其他许多有意思的问题,民主化的问题就没有继续讨论下去。实际上任何人只要花点时间读上几本西方民主理论的入门书,就会知道西方大部分民主理论大师,从孟德斯鸠到熊彼特,都不赞成为民主而民主,都认为民主只是一种程序、一种制度安排、一种游戏规则,其特点是“有限参与”,而不是“无限参与”。当然也有像卢梭这样的理想主义者,呼唤人民主权,不停地革命,但法国为此付出了异常沉重的代价,最后实现的也不是卢梭期望的“目的民主”,而是“工具民主”。
     美国宾州大学教授爱德华·曼兹菲尔德和哥伦比亚大学教授杰克·史奈德最近出版了一本著作《选举到纷争:为什么正在出现的民主国家走向战争》。书中的基本观点是:走向西方民主模式的这个过程,最容易引起内部冲突或外部战争,因为政客们只要打“民粹”牌就容易得到选票。整个上世纪90年代里,许多国家举行自由选举后,便立即进入战争状态:亚美尼亚和阿塞拜疆开打,厄瓜多尔和秘鲁开打,埃塞俄比亚和厄立特里亚开打,还有布隆迪、卢旺达的大屠杀,导致100多万人丧生,当然还有南斯拉夫令人痛心的分裂和战争。我去年访问了前南斯拉夫所有国家,光是波斯尼亚战争中死亡的人数,最保守的估计都超过10万人!成为欧洲二战后死亡人数最多的战争。
     再看看中国,走自己的路,在不到30年的时间里,保持了政治稳定,经济规模扩大了10倍,人民生活普遍提高,虽然仍存在各种问题,有些还相当严重,但中国的崛起,整个世界有目共睹,大多数中国人也对国家前途表示乐观。中国的相对成功为中国赢得了宝贵的话语权,这种话语权就是可以和西方平起平坐地讲道理,你有理,我听你的;你没理,你听我的。要是都听西方的,中国早就解体了。
     在民主化这个问题上也是这样,西方还是没有摆脱“惟我正统,别人都是异教”的思维模式,这种思维模式在历史上曾导致了无数次战争,几乎毁灭了西方文明本身,西方本可以从中悟出很多道理。但是西方,特别是美国似乎还没有从中吸取足够的教训。如果西方真心想要在发展中国家推动民主,就应该认真总结自己民主发展的历史,其中一个关键问题就是民主化的顺序,西方原生态的民主社会自己演变的顺序大致可以这样概括:一是经济和教育的发展,二是市民文化和法治社会的建设,最后才是民主化。这个顺序搞错了,一个社会往往要付出沉重的代价。现在西方却要求第三世界在民主化上一步到位,把最后一步当作第一步,或者三步合为一步,不出乱子才怪呢。
 
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印度比中国落后20年的真正原因-
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  “美国黑人的投票权到1965年才真正开始;瑞士是到了1971年,所有的妇女才获得了投票权,瑞士才实现了真正意义上的普选。如果要推动西方式的民主化,西方自己首先要向别人解释清楚,为什么你们自己真正的民主化过程毫无例外都是渐进的,都是在现代化之后才实现的?”
    。

Why are you posting gibberish ?

Regards
 
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because this article has analysied the topic which you discussed incisively
 
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Thanks for reminding me that I live in a dictatorship of UK.

:coffee:

Regards

:) see dear you can not apply the same model everywhere regarding democracy.
Specially in the sub-continent where even if people vote it dosnt mean that they are doing it out of their own sweet will.
There are many pressure groups besides economic condition of the people both in India and Pakistan that influences the voste cast simple as that.

If one calls only voting as democracy than i dont think so its something out of this world or right way of governence
 
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:) see dear you can not apply the same model everywhere regarding democracy.
Specially in the sub-continent where even if people vote it dosnt mean that they are doing it out of their own sweet will.
There are many pressure groups besides economic condition of the people both in India and Pakistan that influences the voste cast simple as that.

If one calls only voting as democracy than i dont think so its something out of this world or right way of governence

What about the Bhutan model ? only graduates can stand for elections ?

Regards
 
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:) see dear you can not apply the same model everywhere regarding democracy.
Specially in the sub-continent where even if people vote it dosnt mean that they are doing it out of their own sweet will.
There are many pressure groups besides economic condition of the people both in India and Pakistan that influences the voste cast simple as that.

If one calls only voting as democracy than i dont think so its something out of this world or right way of governence


yeah,it is true. in my mind, democracy is not only a political meaning ,it still has more meaning ,with relations about history ,tradition,religion,culture, development process of a country, so it is not one model for all over the world.
 
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