Defence ministry clears purchase of 118 Arjun Mark-II main-battle tanks

[Abingdonboy]

I don't think its a follow on order..............its just 118 mk2 as 0 mk2 has been produced so far,,,,so where is the question of follow on order come?

Well AFAIK a 118 unit order was already placed and this is an additional order or follow-on order whatever you want to call it. I guess if you can't afford to buy all 500+ Mk.2s up front (they are bloody expensive) then this piecemeal order process every 1-2 years makes sense....

 

[Levina]

LCH is a very different kettle of fish as it is VERY different to the ALH and needs to have weapons integrated from day one (it is an attack helo after all). The LUH will be pretty simple to test and certify as it is basically a simpler and smaller version of the ALH so will take lest time to enter service than the LCH.

I guess it was a smart move to let the finance minister head the defence ministry too.The deals get cleared easily. Lol.

 

[he-man]

Well AFAIK a 118 unit order was already placed and this is an additional order or follow-on order whatever you want to call it. I guess if you can't afford to buy all 500+ Mk.2s up front (they are bloody expensive) then this piecemeal order process every 1-2 years makes sense....

I hope u are right but i don't think u are.
Well lets wait for confirmation,,,,if what u say is true we will very soon see some chest thumping by avinash chander

 

[Abingdonboy]

I hope u are right but i don't think u are.
Well lets wait for confirmation,,,,if what u say is true we will very soon see some chest thumping by avinash chander

Either way why are people assuming this 118-242 Mk.2 order is it? There is simply no doubt at this point many, MANY more Mk.2s will be ordered over and above existing orders as the Arjun is the replacement for the 1000+ T-72s in service and anyway the DRDO have always maintained that once the Arjun orders exceed 500 units the price per unit will drop substantially.

 

[he-man]

Either way why are people assuming this 118-242 Mk.2 order is it? There is simply no doubt at this point many, MANY more Mk.2s will be ordered over and above existing orders as the Arjun is the replacement for the 1000+ T-72s in service and anyway the DRDO have always maintained that once the Arjun orders exceed 500 units the price per unit will drop substantially.

I disagree with arjun being replacement for t-72....................we cannot field arjuns in north east or kashmir,we will always need a lighter tank.

Originally arjun was supposed to complement or even bypass t-90 but looks like all the kinks have not been ironed out yet so army is sceptical.

That or kickbacks......................we may never know

 

[Abingdonboy]

I disagree with arjun being replacement for t-72....................we cannot field arjuns in north east or kashmir,we will always need a lighter tank.

In terms of the T-72's numbers in the IA not its class- the IA still has T-72s based in Punjab that the Arjun needs to replace desperately. And wrt the "light weight" issue this is why the IA isn't looking to order 1500+ T-72s (replacing all T-72s in service) just those that are currently to be used in Punjab and such. The IA will have to find another solution to replace the T-72 for use in the NE and Kashmir- this is an open requirement for the IA and I wonder why will fill it.

Originally arjun was supposed to complement or even bypass t-90 but looks like all the kinks have not been ironed out yet so army is sceptical.

I don't know what kinks you are referring to. Even the Mk.1 Arjun whooped the T-90S's butt, the Mk.2 will easily outclass the T-90S (and any other MBT currently in service in the region).


The only things putting the IA off are simple-

a) Price (at $8-10 MILLION each they are VERY expensive and amongst the most expensive MBTs ever made and available today as such it makes sense for the IA to stagger orders over a few years as more funds become available).
b) it is CONSIDERABLY heavier than any MBT the IA has ever used. The IA's entire infrastructure and logistics are built around medium weight Russian MBTs. The Arjun is a VERY different beast- it is a heavy class (60+ tons) MBT built more with a Western design ethos. It is going to take a while for the IA to get to grips with it.

 

[he-man]

In terms of the T-72's numbers in the IA not its class- the IA still has T-72s based in Punjab that the Arjun needs to replace desperately. And wrt the "light weight" issue this is why the IA isn't looking to order 1500+ T-72s (replacing all T-72s in service) just those that are currently to be used in Punjab and such. The IA will have to find another solution to replace the T-72 for use in the NE and Kashmir- this is an open requirement for the IA and I wonder why will fill it.



I don't know what kinks you are referring to. Even the Mk.1 Arjun whooped the T-90S's butt, the Mk.2 will easily outclass the T-90S (and any other MBT currently in service in the region).


The only things putting the IA off are simple-

a) Price (at $8-10 MILLION each they are VERY expensive and amongst the most expensive MBTs ever made and available today as such it makes sense for the IA to stagger orders over a few years as more funds become available).
b) it is CONSIDERABLY heavier than any MBT the IA has ever used. The IA's entire infrastructure and logistics are built around medium weight Russian MBTs. The Arjun is a VERY different beast- it is a heavy class (60+ tons) MBT built more with a Western design ethos. It is going to take a while for the IA to get to grips with it.

All things said and done,,,,we simply have no data to say its better than t-90.................nope.
If really this was the case then i might suggest army is taking massive kickbacks to still buy t-90 but its possible than t-90 may be better and army wants less arjuns as a result of that.

I mean sadly we will never know the truth

 

[Abingdonboy]

All things said and done,,,,we simply have no data to say its better than t-90.................nope.
If really this was the case then i might suggest army is taking massive kickbacks to still buy t-90 but its possible than t-90 may be better and army wants less arjuns as a result of that.

I mean sadly we will never know the truth

I don't buy this one bit.

Firstly, the IA has conducted comparative trails between the T-90S and Arjun Mk.1:


Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90 | Business Standard News

The Mk.1 Arjun trounced the T-90S across the board.


Secondly kickbacks have ZILCH to do with why they are still going for large numbers of the T-90S- it is a institutional matter. The IA is used to the Russian Medium weight MBTs, adopting the heavy class Arjun represents a cataclysmic operational shift for them, one that will take a LONG time to get to terms with. They need to create and let's not forget this isn't an off the shelf product from abroad where all such operational procedures, logistical chains, spares etc are known and in place and available in an instant. This is an ingenious product that is a first of its kind in India, the IA and DRDO are still learning as they go along.

It makes sense to go for the T-90S to address the Modern MBT needs for the short term as the Arjun gets up an running in the IA.


And the T-90S orders are in NO WAY cutting into the Arjun's orders mate have no doubt about that. The IA needs some 6,000+ modern MBTs by the middle/end of the next decade to counter the twin threats from Pak and China and with the phasing out of the T-55s (happened a while back) and T-72s (imminent) there is more than enough demand to go around.

 

[he-man]

I don't buy this one bit.

Firstly, the IA has conducted comparative trails between the T-90S and Arjun Mk.1:


Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90 | Business Standard News

The Mk.1 Arjun trounced the T-90S across the board.


Secondly kickbacks have ZILCH to do with why they are still going for large numbers of the T-90S- it is a institutional matter. The IA is used to the Russian Medium weight MBTs, adopting the heavy class Arjun represents a cataclysmic operational shift for them, one that will take a LONG time to get to terms with. They need to create and let's not forget this isn't an off the shelf product from abroad where all such operational procedures, logistical chains, spares etc are known and in place and available in an instant. This is an ingenious product that is a first of its kind in India, the IA and DRDO are still learning as they go along.

It makes sense to go for the T-90S to address the Modern MBT needs for the short term as the Arjun gets up an running in the IA.


And the T-90S orders are in NO WAY cutting into the Arjun's orders mate have no doubt about that. The IA needs some 6,000+ modern MBTs by the middle/end of the next decade to counter the twin threats from Pak and China and with the phasing out of the T-55s (happened a while back) and T-72s (imminent) there is more than enough demand to go around.

6000!!!

 

[kaku1]

All things said and done,,,,we simply have no data to say its better than t-90.................nope.
If really this was the case then i might suggest army is taking massive kickbacks to still buy t-90 but its possible than t-90 may be better and army wants less arjuns as a result of that.

I mean sadly we will never know the truth

Actually, we are not America. The Mk.2 maybe the better tank than T-90, but problem is its very limited operational capability, we can only use this in Raj and in Punjab. And maybe its deployment time is much higher than T-90.

It maybe the best tank in this region, but what is the use if it can fail the whole operation like Cold Start, which require fast deployment.

 

[Abingdonboy]

6000!!!

Pakistan and China have 12,000 between them as is. Given the nature of the terrain there's no way the PLA could use all theirs against the IA but the PA's MBT fleet is only going to grow (albeit of questionable quality). 6,000 advanced MBTs is a very conservative estimate I've heard that the IA's needs by the middle/end of the next decade.

 

[he-man]

Pakistan and China have 12,000 between them as is. Given the nature of the terrain there's no way the PLA could use all theirs against the IA but the PA's MBT fleet is only going to grow (albeit of questionable quality). 6,000 advanced MBTs is a very conservative estimate I've heard that the IA's needs by the middle/end of the next decade.

1500-1700 T-72(only upgraded ones)
1000 T-90
400-500 ARJUN(estimate)

Will be extremely difficult to reach number of 6000

 

[Abingdonboy]

but what is the use if it can fail the whole operation like Cold Start, which require fast deployment.

And here is where the Arjun faces SERIOUS issues right now- it is only very recently the IA has started to tackle the colossal logistical challenge they are facing by operating the Arjun (bridges can't hold the weight of an Arjun, need relevant road trailers, recovery vehicles, bridge layers etc).

@he-man is right to be skeptical but I don't think he is aware of the mountain facing the IA vis a vis adopting the Arjun as their MBT, it is not a simple "plug and play" system, it needs an entirely new eco-system to be created around it given it is SO different from the Medium weight Russian MBTs. As such it is fair for the IA to want to continue with T-90S orders for the near term, until all relevant infrastructure and systems are in place for the Arjun.

Just give the Arjun time guy, it is a real game changer for the IA.....

1500-1700 T-72(only upgraded ones)
1000 T-90
400-500 ARJUN(estimate)

Will be extremely difficult to reach number of 6000

FMBT should be in production by 2021/2 and AFAIK the IA is looking for some 700-800 Arjuns (Mk.1s and 2s) also the IA is going to have to address their light weight MBT requirement some how (around 400-500 are needed). But I agree it is obviously an incredibly ambitious target but that's what is needed as India's adversaries are not going to be standing still.....

 

[he-man]

And here is where the Arjun faces SERIOUS issues right now- it is only very recently the IA has started to tackle the colossal logistical challenge they are facing by operating the Arjun (bridges can't hold the weight of an Arjun, need relevant road trailers, recovery vehicles, bridge layers etc).

@he-man is right to be skeptical but I don't think he is aware of the mountain facing the IA vis a vis adopting the Arjun as their MBT, it is not a simple "plug and play" system, it needs an entirely new eco-system to be created around it given it is SO different from the Medium weight Russian MBTs. As such it is fair for the IA to want to continue with T-90S orders for the near term, until all relevant infrastructure and systems are in place for the Arjun.

Just give the Arjun time guy, it is a real game changer for the IA.....

Especially with the amount of foreign systems going into arjun it should be better than t-90..................i am willing to accept that.

Russians are gonna unveil armata mbt next year and i fear it may well spell doom for fmbt....................

 

[Abingdonboy]

Especially with the amount of foreign systems going into arjun it should be better than t-90..................i am willing to accept that.

It is more advanced than the T-90S (more modern optics, electronics, fire control systems and counter measures) has superior suspension, lower ground pressure, a superior engine and is more accurate when firing stationary, moving against stationary targets or moving targets. Almost across the board it is the better machine but that obviously comes at a price (2 times plus more than the T-90S).