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Defence Line - Army's Battle With Arjun Tank

I really don't agree with alot of assessment in the video.
1. Its wrong to say there's no support for Arjun MBT. DRDO has developed all the support slowly and slowly like transportation through road, rail, BLT, ARV, mine clearing version etc. If you are gonna order only 124 tanks, what do you expect. You want everything and at the same time you don't wanna purchase the MBT.

You gotta call a spade a spade... No they did not say there was NO support, they meant it is not as a professional army would expect, Also it was mentioned that it was due to the numbers produced and inducted... yes that is the main reason for all the issues for Arjun.

BTW as pointed out, Arjun is an excellent tank but missed the train, which T-90 latched onto. It should have proved its worth before T-90s were considered.

Actually, IA should not be pushed since they never wanted such a heavy tank in the first place, a spanner was thrown into the works by the weight which needed many changes in the logistics. Since everything is done slowly, Arjuns will also get inducted slowly.

2. The issue spares is a big thing in Russian MBTs too, so i don't think its right to blame DRDO when Russians are also doing the same. Also how can you expect to resolve the spares issue when you are not ordering any MBT. First place the order and then the servicing infrastructure will be developed. But IA wants DRDO to develop everything first and then what will happen to DRDO, if IA still finds out something and decides not to place any more orders ? CVRDE will go bankrupt.
Ive never heard that T-90 has spares issues, can you point out some source for your claim? Apart from that T-90 is logistically the best to operate.
3. Arjun was also intensely tested in Punjab plains so its wrong to say its not meant for that area especially when tanks like Merkava can operate in a place like Israel, noteble point is Merkava 4 is almost 7 tons more heavier than arjun.
Even if IA decides not to field any Arjun in Punjab plains, everybody still agreed that Arjun is better option for desert. Considering more than 50% of Indian armored regiment operate in desert area, i would say IA should atleast place an order of more than 500 Arjun mk2.

What they pointed out was there was a lot of challenges because there were a lot of water bodies in those areas.. Its not the weight which matters, it is infrastructure which matters.. Which indirectly puts the blame on weight.

4. If weight is an issue, then let me just tell you that even T90 won't be helpful in hilly areas. So just like arjun can't be used everywhere, so is t90.

It is a issue because moving a regiment of T-90 through roads to border can be worked out but Arjun needs bridges and roads of different specifications, not all are meant to take that load..
5. Lastly we should stop calling T90 as Main Battle Tank. Its a joke. We are lucky that PA is not using Abrams, if they would have purchased Abrams instead of T80, we would be inducting Leopard instead f--king T90 becuase lets be serious now, IA armored core would be peeing themselves if their favorite tank faces an actual main battle tank.
True there.. but T-90 is our mainstay tank.
6. Its f--king idiotic to wait for FMBT when except 600+ t90 and 248 arjun are the only tanks that are battle ready in the IA armored core which once had close to 4000 tanks. Even if FMBT gets ready by 2020, it would take close 2 decades to replace all those t72s which can hardly be used till 2020. Its clear that then IA will place an emergency order for t90 which Russians will charge extra and which IA top brass won't mind since they will be getting their cut and who cares about national security. IA has 750 T55 which should be immediately replaced by Arjun mk2.

Yes that is quite feasible I think, the supply chain for Arjun can be put in place with so many tanks..

In short, to keep up i think IA should slowly and slowly start replacing t72 and t55 by t90 and Arjun mk2 because if they will wait for FMBT, the gap will widen too much. IA is doing exercises with so many countries, i think its time for them to field t72, t90 and arjun against US Abrams, British Challenger 2, Singapore's Leopard 2, Israel Merkava and French Leclerc.

I think we can only achieve such with Israel maybe, because they were involved in the Arjun project too.

France cannot be rules out, no Idea though... thinking out loud here!
 
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logistics and maintainability is just a lame excuse to keep Arjun out of service. Even the T90s are not maintainable and reliable as per this report from ajai.
On August 24 last year, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) dressed up failure as achievement when — almost nine years after India bought the T-90 tank from Russia — the first 10 built-in-India T-90s were ceremonially rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai.

No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90’s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

The story of the T-90 has been coloured by deception and obfuscation from even before the tank was procured. Business Standard has pieced together, from internal documents and multiple interviews with MoD sources, an account of how the Indian Army has saddled itself with an underperforming, yet overpriced, version of the Russian T-90.

The deception stemmed from the army’s determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued — allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production — that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russia’s army had spurned the T-90.

To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russia’s arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from India’s T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistan’s anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.

Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.

The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that India’s pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Army’s recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident — and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan — that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90’s thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn’t work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90’s fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.

With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world’s current tanks, other than France’s LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India’s Arjun tank, too, has “hardened” electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.

Nor has the MoD managed to procure the Shtora anti-missile system. The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip India’s eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.

The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.

Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s’ drawbacks will not be evident. But, as officers who have operated the T-90 admit, these could be crucial handicaps in battle.

“It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank,” says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. “Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further.”

If the Arjun performs strongly in next month’s comparative trials around Suratgarh and Pokhran, that order could be in the offing.

FRAUD ON THE NATION?

* Key operational systems were kept out to bring the price down
* Parliament wasn’t told about this, nor of the plan for supplementary contracts
* The performance on the ground showed that the T-90 was an appalling mistake
* This has set in train even more costly cover-ups
* All this, while the indigenous Arjun is free of many of these minuses


The truth is that their is a section in the IA and MOD that doesn't want indigenous development of a product that can be bought from outside. Its the same story with all the indigenous development efforts whether its akash missile, nag missile, Lca tejas, tank ammunition, rifles etc. The success of Pithvi and Agni missiles doesn't stem from the fact that DRDO did something exceptionally well in the projects,but because their were no foreign alternatives and no chance of kick backs.
 
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logistics and maintainability is just a lame excuse to keep Arjun out of service. Even the T90s are not maintainable and reliable as per this report from ajai.



The truth is that their is a section in the IA and MOD that doesn't want indigenous development of a product that can be bought from outside. Its the same story with all the indigenous development efforts whether its akash missile, nag missile, Lca tejas, tank ammunition, rifles etc. The success of Pithvi and Agni missiles doesn't stem from the fact that DRDO did something exceptionally well in the projects,but because their were no foreign alternatives and no chance of kick backs.

That is last year, does the situation exists since we have started making T-90s in India?
There might be vested interests in the procurement but then the logistics argument does not sound lame to me..

What I have heard is good logistics actually win wars..
 
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That is last year, does the situation exists since we have started making T-90s in India?
There might be vested interests in the procurement but then the logistics argument does not sound lame to me..

What I have heard is good logistics actually win wars..

They are trying to sort out the problem by replacing russian parts with french and israel systems. logistics is not the problem, its the lack of commitment on IA part. How can you expect to have a baby before sex. Once you commit to Arjun in large numbers, cost of production and maintenance will drastically go down and logistics will be put in place. Why didn't IA raise the issue of weight and logistics before? were they sleeping all these years dreaming that DRDO cannot come up with a world class Tank? Now that we have developed a world class tank , they start giving lame excuses.
 
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They are trying to sort out the problem by replacing russian parts with french and israel systems. logistics is not the problem, its the lack of commitment on IA part. How can you expect to have a baby before sex. Once you commit to Arjun in large numbers, cost of production and maintenance will drastically go down and logistics will be put in place.

Why is it so hard to accept that Arjun came in late and with a lot of baggage with it?

Committing when T-90s were already inducted in a large number? How do you expect that to happen?

Why didn't IA raise the issue of weight and logistics before? were they sleeping all these years dreaming that DRDO cannot come up with a world class Tank? Now that we have developed a world class tank , they start giving lame excuses.

Dude, the GSQR was changed many times, who know what the Army wanted in terms of weight, but I have read that IA wanted a tank with less than 50 tons.

Both IA and DRDO are at fault here for the low numbers of Arjun.

IT is a world class tank no doubt but should be seen as a failure in terms of frequent changes in GSQR by Army and DRDO not delivering stuff on time.

DRDO came with a Tank which was not perfect, had many problems and the Army could not induct it when it wanted it, hence T-90.. So everybody is at fault and not just the IA.
 
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Why is it so hard to accept that Arjun came in late and with a lot of baggage with it?

Committing when T-90s were already inducted in a large number? How do you expect that to happen?



Dude, the GSQR was changed many times, who know what the Army wanted in terms of weight, but I have read that IA wanted a tank with less than 50 tons.

Both IA and DRDO are at fault here for the low numbers of Arjun.

IT is a world class tank no doubt but should be seen as a failure in terms of frequent changes in GSQR by Army and DRDO not delivering stuff on time.

DRDO came with a Tank which was not perfect, had many problems and the Army could not induct it when it wanted it, hence T-90.. So everybody is at fault and not just the IA.

On time?? what do you mean by on time? do you mean Arjun systems are not at par with its contemporaries, that world over tanks are using rail guns and poor Arjun still has a rifled gun?

it has been the culture of IA to brand every indigenous project as failure because its not perfect, rather then owning them and making them a success. No weapon, let alone a Tank, is perfect at the time of induction. World-over, armies induct weapons and then work onthe short comings and make improvements as per their strategies. Its only in India that the great IA wants every thing perfect from DRDO, while at the same time inducting sub standard systems on the name of delays in the indigenous product. T90 was not perfect when it got inducted then why did IA induct a not so perfect Tank? it could well have inducted Arjun and worked on its short comings like they are painstakingly doing it for T90s with the help of DRDO. Hell, T90 was not even tested in India before induction.
 
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On time?? what do you mean by on time? do you mean Arjun systems are not at par with its contemporaries, that world over tanks are using rail guns and poor Arjun still has a rifled gun?
No, you misunderstand me. What I meant on time is when IA wanted the Arjun it was not completely ready, it had engine problems, track issues and many others. At that point of time Army had to get tanks so they ordered T-90S simple.


It has been the culture of IA to brand every indigenous project as failure because its not perfect, rather then owning them and making them a success. No weapon, let alone a Tank, is perfect at the time of induction.
Nobosy said it was perfect, there were issues which were effecting the normal operation of Arjun.. you have many sources available for the problems, you want me to link it here?

World-over, armies induct weapons and then work on the short comings and make improvements as per their strategies. Its only in India that the great IA wants every thing perfect from DRDO, while at the same time inducting sub standard systems on the name of delays in the indigenous product.
True, but the recent news about Nag and Namica certainly does not help your case..

T90 was not perfect when it got inducted then why did IA induct a not so perfect Tank? it could well have inducted Arjun and worked on its short comings like they are painstakingly doing it for T90s with the help of DRDO. Hell, T90 was not even tested in India before induction.
I will agree only if you can compare the short comings of T-90 with Arjun as T-90 was a successor to the already inducted tank T-72 so it might not have been perfect, the benefit does go to T-90 which would have been much better in terms of operation capability at the time of Induction.
 
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No, you misunderstand me. What I meant on time is when IA wanted the Arjun it was not completely ready, it had engine problems, track issues and many others. At that point of time Army had to get tanks so they ordered T-90S simple.

Not completely ready? instead of wanting something IA should better focus on owning the systems and getting involved from their inception. its not a commodity that when you want it you get it. This behavior clearly shows that IA is not interested in indigenization of weapon systems. If Arjun was not ready then was T90 ready at that time ? clearly not. T90 is designed to work in cold environment of russia that is why it only has a heating system. It is not designed to be used in the thar desert. IA knew that to make it work in desert, a lot of work needed to be done. Same was true for Arjun, but IA choose foreign product meant for cold environment over a domestic product specifically designed for domestic requirements.

I will agree only if you can compare the short comings of T-90 with Arjun as T-90 was a successor to the already inducted tank T-72 so it might not have been perfect, the benefit does go to T-90 which would have been much better in terms of operation capability at the time of Induction.

Arjun is a domestic product which has been designed keeping in mind domestic requirements unlike T90 that has been designed for russia and comes with lots of constraints and future blackmailing. Anybody in his right mind will try to work with a domestic product and make it world class rather then sitting on the fringes and whining about delays.

Operation capability can be developed easily if one is really interested in the product.
 
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