Decline of Islamic Science

[FaujHistorian]

As long as cheap shots are continued to be taken at Islam and Islamic scholars and blamed them for something they had nothing to do with.

Ok bhai jaan

Don't take cheap shots then. Easy!

Ok Ok,

I respect my fellow TTs, so my answer is?

you are 100% right. Ok. now?

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Nah bhai jaan. Nah!
Wrong line of thinking. Very wrong.

Only European Jews fall in the group. Middle Eastern, Indian, African Jews are pretty much at the same level as their local non-jewish countrymen.

So no it is not genetic or religious.

European Jews developed unique survival methods and as a result they got into colleges / research institutions in much higher numbers.

Were their fellow Christian countrymen happy to see that?


Not really.

But European jews were hard working minority and thus did well in every field they got into.

Peace

Never mind. Intelligent Jews are welcome here.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Never mind. Intelligent Jews are welcome here.

you made stereotypical comment bhai jaan.

Try to understand what I was saying.

 

[patriotpakistan]

The conquest of Constantinople was nothing to bragg about.It was a shadow of its former self,defended by a handfull of men and reduced to mostly rubble by 2 centuries of continuous decay.

That story seems familiar...... Where have i heard it...... Ah yes. The american invasion of Iraq... or was it Afghanistan?

 

[Rain]

What is Islamic science? To study islamic beliefs scientifically or study science according to islamic beliefs?

In any case its a stupid thing.

 

[timetravel]

Islam is anti thesis of Science.... Where ever Islam spreads, Science starts to go down.

Islam calls for and leads to destruction of science. It does not promote/contribute to science.

Science will lead to abolition of religion - and in turn abolition of Islam. So for Islam to survive, it has to remove science from society.

Those few contributions from Muslims are CONTRIBUTIONS of INDIVIDUALS on their own merits. Islam did not contribute in any way to these people's scientific contributions.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Those few contributions from Muslims are CONTRIBUTIONS of INDIVIDUALS on their own merits. Islam did not contribute in any way to these people's scientific contributions.

I beg to disagree,
people like Jabir Bin hayan , yahya Bin Mansoor etc were practising Muslims as well as mathematicians, alchemists and scientists as well. to support their work Quranic verses encouraging people to explore, understand research are quoted.
no one was burnt alive or tortured for his scientific discoveries unlike in the west all was done. instead Islam encouraged and Prophet Muhammad PBUH advises Muslim to go as far as China to seek knowldge which in his time was centre for learning.

you, like many people is nick picking. you pick-up what suits you to make an argument. normally when it suits people they use Islam and Muslims together in an analogous way to say acts of few explain the religion is BAD,

now if something good is done by some Muslims, suddenly another criteria is used to separate their faith from the individual.


such tendency is commonly known as hypocrisy and bigotry.

@pakistanipower you need to write in a civilised manner, check my post for some clues on how to respond to naysayers.

 

[timetravel]

I beg to disagree,
people like Jabir Bin hayan , yahya Bin Mansoor etc were practising Muslims as well as mathematicians, alchemists and scientists as well. to support their work Quranic verses encouraging people to explore, understand research are quoted.
no one was burnt alive or tortured for his scientific discoveries unlike in the west all was done. instead Islam encouraged and Prophet Muhammad PBUH advises Muslim to go as far as China to seek knowldge which in his time was centre for learning.

you, like many people is nick picking. you pick-up what suits you to make an argument. normally when it suits people they use Islam and Muslims together in an analogous way to say acts of few explain the religion is BAD,

now if something good is done by some Muslims, suddenly another criteria is used to separate their faith from the individual.


such tendency is commonly known as hypocrisy and bigotry.

@pakistanipower you need to write in a civilised manner, check my post for some clues on how to respond to naysayers.

I think Muslims main focus is on eating lot of meat and building strong muscles and strong build.. They are more like raw fighters... But their focus on science is zero... A few fellows in between is more like due to probability. Just take your Madrassas (Prominent place of Islam). I don't think they spread Science at all.

Its good and fancy to believe Islam has positive notion of science, but fact is its false. Islam and Science are anti thesis of each other. I can see countless Madrassas producing nothing but religious nutcases, and Madrassas are supposedly the places where one learns the best of Islam.

Science promotes rationalism. Rationalism promotes liberalism, secularism and democracy. These three virtues are like enemies of Islam. So Islam never has and never will promote science.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

There is really nothing in Islam that says you cannot explore science and improve your life using science. But the bottom line is to not forget who created you and who your lord is. If Muslims could progress in inventing/discovering back then and now we can't, how is that Islams fault?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I think Muslims main focus is on eating lot of meat and building strong muscles and strong build.. They are more like raw fighters... But their focus on science is zero... A few fellows in between is more like due to probability. Just take your Madrassas (Prominent place of Islam). I don't think they spread Science at all.

Its good and fancy to believe Islam has positive notion of science, but fact is its false. Islam and Science are anti thesis of each other. I can see countless Madrassas producing nothing but religious nutcases, and Madrassas are supposedly the places where one learns the best of Islam.

Science promotes rationalism. Rationalism promotes liberalism, secularism and democracy. These three virtues are like enemies of Islam. So Islam never has and never will promote science.

thanks for your point of view and your biased opinion
you suffer from the negative perception of Islam in the global context re terrorism and you rationalised it to the faith itself.

myself and others have repeatedly quoted Quranic references as well as the teachings of our founder where the people are not only appreciated but encouraged to seek knowledge and this advice is NOT about to Islamic jurisprudence but about worldly knowledge.
for you the glass will remain half full and you will choose to seek references and examples that suit you and strengthen your arguments, you have given examples of Mullahs and madreassahs that churn them out as those who oppose knowledge but they are no different to the mindset of Christian clergy that tortured and murdered people on the charges of witchcraft.

there is a verse which states that one who has discovered his inner self has discovered his creator. this pretty much negates what you have written in the end. I absolutely understand and sympathise with your predicament that you cant allow yourself to see anything good in Islam but as it happens we have Quranic text and the sayings of our Prophet Muhammad PBUH who negate your argument. there are 72 sects in Islam and there is only one wahabi sect that is producing the so called nutcases but they are not teaching the best of Islam on the contrary they have a very myopic and extremist world view and they have mixed them with some rituals as Islamic expression and that my dear is NOT the best of Islam because if that was the case you would have had a problem at the magnitude of 1.5 Billion
just pull the thumb off your arse and think over it.
good day

 

[RiazHaq]

Hadith-based laws unnecessary, says Dr Mahathir. "We've rejected the Quran in favor of the Hadith" Hadith-based laws unnecessary, says Dr M | Free Malaysia Today #Malaysia,#Islam

In a statement that is likely to invite brickbats from several quarters, Mahathir said injunctions from the Hadith were merely guidance and not meant to be enforced as law.
“The teachings, or the performance, or the traditions of the Prophet come after he had been given the message of Allah, which is recorded in the Quran,” he said.
“Between the two, it is obviously the Quran that is superior.”
Mahathir pointed out that stoning to death for fornication is not called for in the Quran, but only in the Hadith, which mentions the enforcement of such punishment on two occasions.
“Allah is merciful and compassionate,” he said. “One who is merciful and compassionate would not enjoy stoning people to death.”
Mahathir stressed that any Islamic law would have to be just. If it were unjust, he said, it would not be Islamic.
Thus, he said, he disagreed with the law that requires a woman to produce four witnesses to back her claim of being raped.
He said deviations from the message of the Quran had led to deviant behaviour among Muslims. He cited atrocities committed by organisations like the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria as well as the recent conviction of a Malaysian student in London for possession of child pornography.
“We used to have great scientists and mathematicians, but now our mathematicians are downloading 30,000 pornography images,” he lamented. (The convicted student was pursuing a mathematics degree.)
Mahathir also expressed his disagreement with the practice of turning fatwas into law.
Fatwas, he said, were merely opinions, and the laws derived from them were sometimes impractical and unnecessary. He gave the example of old fatwas that prohibited the use of light bulbs and motorised vehicles because they were invented by “infidels”.
“There’s no necessity to Islamise everything,” he said. “Of course, there are things that should be abstained from as they are forbidden in Islam, but there’s no reason to give unnecessary fatwas to Islamise them.”

 

[timetravel]

thanks for your point of view and your biased opinion
you suffer from the negative perception of Islam in the global context re terrorism and you rationalised it to the faith itself.

myself and others have repeatedly quoted Quranic references as well as the teachings of our founder where the people are not only appreciated but encouraged to seek knowledge and this advice is NOT about to Islamic jurisprudence but about worldly knowledge.
for you the glass will remain half full and you will choose to seek references and examples that suit you and strengthen your arguments, you have given examples of Mullahs and madreassahs that churn them out as those who oppose knowledge but they are no different to the mindset of Christian clergy that tortured and murdered people on the charges of witchcraft.

there is a verse which states that one who has discovered his inner self has discovered his creator. this pretty much negates what you have written in the end. I absolutely understand and sympathise with your predicament that you cant allow yourself to see anything good in Islam but as it happens we have Quranic text and the sayings of our Prophet Muhammad PBUH who negate your argument. there are 72 sects in Islam and there is only one wahabi sect that is producing the so called nutcases but they are not teaching the best of Islam on the contrary they have a very myopic and extremist world view and they have mixed them with some rituals as Islamic expression and that my dear is NOT the best of Islam because if that was the case you would have had a problem at the magnitude of 1.5 Billion
just pull the thumb off your arse and think over it.
good day

Lets first accept the basic premise. Science promotes rationalism. Rationalism promotes secularism, democracy and liberalism. Now without going into what Quran says, I would rather take real life example of Islam, simply because "The proof of the pudding is in the eating". Isn't it mostly right?

So my example is Pakistan itself. Since 1947:
Things which have gone up: Islam has risen in Pakistan, Religious Education, Madrassas.
Things which have gone down: Secularism, Democracy, Liberalism (and by implication therefore rationalism and science).

The relationship is very simple.
Islam {INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL TO} 1/Science or Rationalism (Liberalism, Democracy, Secularism)

Empirical evidence clearly indicates Islam goes up, science goes down. I have not read what Quran says about science. But Quran says many things about a lot of things. Each of those aspects effect human's mind in a different manner. The overall effect of everything on human mind for me is best judged based by observation of those who follow Islam. As and when Islam produces democratic, secular, liberal and scientifically advanced countries like France, Germany, US, Italy, Russia, China, India etc I am ready to change my opinion on relation between Science and Islam.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Lets first accept the basic premise. Science promotes rationalism. Rationalism promotes secularism, .

this term is overrated and is sapped by the interpretation of people who take it to next level which is called "freedom of expression" which in today's day and age is sometimes confused with wanton provocation.
religion is a different cattle of the fish its to do with belief which is hard to quantify (or rationalise as you put it). for the sake of the thread my contribution is that Islam DIDN'T stand in the way of science and knowledge and I cited few examples of practising Muslim scholars who didn't find any contradictions in their field of work in Maths, Alchemy and biology and their belief.
my issue is that people are using the popular opinion about Islam due to global terrorism and just not willing to give a second thought despite being given ample examples from the past which itself is a self contradictory to their claim of "rationalism".

as for end part, I can tell you that Islam will never produce the kind of western democracy you are advocating in the east I am very sorry, but you cant call system as wrong.
I urge you strongly to listen and hear to what Michael Scheuer a political commentator has to say about what you just said in the end part.


wish you well

 

[RiazHaq]

No inspiration from above

May 15th 2015, 12:28 BY THE DATA TEAM

• 
  
  
  
  MORE religious countries tend to be less innovative, according to a paper published last month by America’s National Bureau of Economic Research. In “Forbidden Fruits: The Political Economy of Science, Religion, and Growth”, Roland Benabou of Princeton and Davide Ticche and Andrea Vindigni of the IMT Institute for Advanced Studies Lucca find a strong negative correlation between innovation, as measured by patents, and religiosity, measured by the share of a population that self-identifies as religious. “I am interested in how people form beliefs that are relevant to economics,” says Mr Benabou. “That thought takes you to belief with a capital B, and that’s religion.”
  
  The authors do not claim to prove that religion causes an innovation deficit. However, they hypothesise that theocratic models of government, in which political leaders are strongly influenced by religious institutions, may provide a channel for anti-scientific views to influence public policy. As examples, they cite the banning of printing in the Ottoman Empire, and the controversial decision by the former American president George W. Bush to limit the federal government’s funding of stem-cell research. Even after taking into account these restrictions, the existence of the United States is still problematic for the theory: a fifth of the world’s GDP comes from a country that is both religious and innovative. And if religion does in fact depress innovation, that does not necessarily mean it is bad for economic growth. After all, faith could quite plausibly offer benefits, such as social cohesion, that outweigh its costs.
  
  http://www.economist.com/blogs/grap...3?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/dc/st/noinspirationfromabove

 

[SQ8]

What is Islamic Science?It is itself a misnomer. There is nothing Islamic or unislamic about science. It has no basis in religion. Science may be the study of the environment in which humans exist but that from the creator's perspective is irrelevant who is studying it.