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I think the GOB will have issues with you regarding the population statistics and census of Bangladesh. If 50 million Bangladeshis left for India after 1987 then the country should have a population of around 100 million.

Munshi those 50 million also include children of illegal migrants as they are not recognised as citizens of India.Thus the population loss for Banglades would be close to only 15-20 million.
 
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Munshi those 50 million also include children of illegal migrants as they are not recognised as citizens of India.Thus the population loss for Banglades would be close to only 15-20 million.

It still does not make any sense. If the figure of 15-20 million plus the 9 million that left for work overseas is inputted then the BD population should be no higher than 120 million. Your figures are not consistent with national or international population statistics for Bangladesh.
 
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It still does not make any sense. If the figure of 15-20 million plus the 9 million that left for work overseas is inputted then the BD population should be no higher than 120 million. Your figures are not consistent with national or international population statistics for Bangladesh.

It would make sense if you see it in prespective of 41 year of existence of bangladesh.The average would come out to be less than a million per year which is quite reasonable.Also census records population at a particular epoch at which it is being conducted.So population of Bangladesh when is said to be 156 million,it means the population at the time at which census is conducted.If you want to compare it to gross migration,you would have to apply some complicated statistical progression which takes in account the historical change in cumulative population.
 
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Hindus who had not emigrated in 1947 or 1971 were unlikely to emigrate after 1987. The GOI clearly understood that after 1987 it would be mostly Muslims that would be coming in so they had to be kept out even though their numbers were minuscule. If Indian propaganda is to be believed then the 20 million illegal East Pakistani/Bangladeshi immigrants who entered India from 1947-2012 the majority would in fact be Hindu. I would estimate about 80% of illegal immigrants from East Pakistan/Bangladesh were Hindu that had entered before 1987. These have conveniently become legal while Muslims are illegal because India must be kept Hindu.

Dude, why are you beating the same drum as Indians. There are no Bengali Muslim migration from Bangladesh after 1947. It is mostly Hindus, and later some Biharis. These are their $hit anyways.. They need to take care of that. We mostly incorporated Bengali Muslim from India and many others till 1971. Many non Bengali lost citizenship in 1971. Who stayed back in BD till 2008 were granted BD citizenship. Those chose to go back to their ancestral home, was their choice. India can do whatever they want with them. Give citizenship or dump them in Indian ocean, its their choice. We dont feel any extra compassion for Indian Muslim like India does for Hindus.

Besides if they find any Bengali Bangladeshi Muslim, they are more than welcome to contact our Embassy in Delhi and Calcutta with their identity. We have a due process in place for their identificaion and we will pay for their safe return home.
 
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Dude, why are you beating the same drum as Indians. There are no Bengali Muslim migration from Bangladesh after 1947. It is mostly Hindus, and later some Biharis. These are their $hit anyways.. They need to take care of that. We mostly incorporated Bengali Muslim from India and many others till 1971. Many non Bengali lost citizenship in 1971. Who stayed back in BD till 2008 were granted BD citizenship. Those chose to go back to their ancestral home, was their choice. India can do whatever they want with them. Give citizenship or dump them in Indian ocean, its their choice. We dont feel any extra compassion for Indian Muslim like India does for Hindus.

Besides if they find any Bengali Bangladeshi Muslim, they are more than welcome to contact our Embassy in Delhi and Calcutta with their identity. We have a due process in place for their identificaion and we will pay for their safe return home.

I am trying to get them to prove their figures and statistics and also show them that what they are saying actually makes no sense.
 
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It would make sense if you see it in prespective of 41 year of existence of bangladesh.The average would come out to be less than a million per year which is quite reasonable.Also census records population at a particular epoch at which it is being conducted.So population of Bangladesh when is said to be 156 million,it means the population at the time at which census is conducted.If you want to compare it to gross migration,you would have to apply some complicated statistical progression which takes in account the historical change in cumulative population.

What I am trying to point out is that removing 15-20 million plus 9 million migrant workers from the Bangladesh population would actually bring the current population to around 120 million. Add to this the fact that the 15-20 million + 9 million would not be contributing to the population growth in Bangladesh as they would not be producing children in the country. Which ever way you look at this the figures produced by India are utterly ridiculous.
 
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What I am trying to point out is that removing 15-20 million plus 9 million migrant workers from the Bangladesh population would actually bring the current population to around 120 million. Add to this the fact that the 15-20 million + 9 million would not be contributing to the population growth in Bangladesh as they would not be producing children in the country. Which ever way you look at this the figures produced by India are utterly ridiculous.


And what i am trying to point out and have pointed out in my last post is that the loss of those 15-20million has not occurred in a single day but over a period of 41 years.It is not as extreme as you make it out to be.The 9 million legal migrants that you are talking about are migrants from one generation only hence their effect on demographics is more than 15 million spread over 5 generations.

Also i took up the figure of 50 million to prove this point that even if true it is not catastrophic migration but diastrophic.This is the high end figure usually quoted by right wingers.

More neutral assessment put migrant figure at 13.2million ie loss of 5-6 billion bangladeshis over period of 41 years.Hardly a population altering figure.

India & Bangladesh Migration Matrix- Reactive and  not Proactive


South Asia Analysis Group

Paper no. 632

17. 03.2003












India & Bangladesh - Migration Matrix- Reactive and not Proactive

by Jyoti M. Pathania

“The massive illegal immigration poses a grave danger to our security, social harmony and economic well-being. We have compromised on all these aspects so far. It is time to say enough is enough.” Recommendation of National Security System, Feb. 2001.

“ The long cherished design of Greater Bangladesh, making inroads into the strategic land link of Assam with the rest of India, can lead to severing the entire land mass of North East from the rest of the country” Lt. Gen S.K. Sinha Report Mar. 1998.

These are serious statements and the time has come for the Government in India to make an overall review of the problem, particularly from the security point of view.

The problem :

The problem of illegal immigration has been a recurring phenomenon ever since the formation of Bangladesh in 1971. It is only recently when the volume of illegal immigrants has reached alarming limits that in spite of repeated protests to that country, no appreciable sensitivity has been shown by Bangladesh causing the bilateral relations between the two (SAARC) countries to become waspish, strained and suspicious. The immigrants cross over to this country mainly on economic reasons and due to religious oppression of minorities (Hindus) from this Islamic country. Local politicians got an opportunity to strengthen their vote banks by sympathizing with these so called migrants for their short term gains ignoring the long term damage that would be caused to the already poverty stricken country. Indian Governments during their successive tenures also turned a blind eye to this brewing up problem which ultimately was eating up into its resources, employment opportunities, health, literacy and above all also acting as a SECURITY THREAT.

The Reason:

While analyzing the reasons why a sort of continuous slow exodus is taking place from Bangladesh to India, it may be seen that the main causes are:

* Basic need theory i.e. food, shelter and clothing.

* Economic dictates i.e. employment opportunity, better wages and comparatively better living conditions.

* Demographic disproportion especially for minorities (Hindus) in this densely populated country having roughly a density of 780 per sq km as against half that number on Indian side of the border.

* Being cheap labor the Bangladeshis find easy acceptance as “domestic helps” in Indian homes, which keeps proliferating by ever increasing demand for domestic helps.

Problems faced by India while dealing with illegal migrants:

* Security personnel have no coherent system to deal with massive flow of Bangladesh migrants, so much so their arrest and prosecution is also rare. An incident can be stated here to prove this point. Ranbir Singh Pura Sep 2002, border Security officials (BSF) handed over 162 Bangladeshi illegal immigrants to the local police. The police refused to arrest them because the local police station had no space to house so many people.

* Dual immigration laws followed in India; The illegal migrants (determination by Tribunal) Act 1983 is followed in Assam and the Foreigners Act 1946 is for the rest of the country.

* Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) has also given its assessment stating that some Bangladeshis are being trained as saboteurs in Pakistan, acting as a security threat.

* Another difficulty is the riverine terrain of the border area, which makes fencing difficult and poor border management policy

* Despite the border agreement signed by the then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi and Sheik Mujibur Rahman. 40.6 Km still remains undemarcated and another 6.5 km is still disputed.

* Bangladeshi migrants fulfill the technical requirements of an Indian citizen by possessing voter’s identity card, ration card, putting the local authorities on a fix.

* Further problem exists because the migrants have settled down permanently, encroached lands and are enjoying the rights of natural citizens.

Bangladesh Migrants Present In various States

Numbers in million

States

5.4

West Bengal

4

Assam

0.5

Bihar

1.5

Delhi

0.8

Tripura

0.5

Rajasthan

0.5

Maharashtra





















Key Immigration routes for the Bangladeshis

Malda
Siliguri
Murshidabad
Dinajpur
Courtesy Sinha report

Advantages of Migration for the Bangladeshis:

* About 15 billion dollars are earned annually by Bangladesh migrants hence it’s a great boost to the country’s GDP.

* Dhaka will have less population to feed if the exodus of people to India and Pakistan continues. BSF argues that Bangladesh intentionally allows its national to migrate to overcome the problem of population explosion.

* Thriving leather and processed meat industry success due to the cattle smuggling from India, wherein Indian cattle are bought at throw away prices and the finished product is exported to the Middle East at almost 3-4 times the cost price. One figure estimates about .5 million dollar worth cattle heads per month from West Bengal are smuggled into Bangladesh.

* A considerable number of laid off workers from Bangladesh Jute Industry have sought haven by joining hands with the illegal traders in the cattle industry, if they leave it now it will be a big loss for them.

* Porous border allows for smuggling of large quantities in cash and kind.

Measures taken by the Indian Government: Some recent developments

* 23 Jan 2003, A two day meeting of India- Bangladesh Joint working group was held in Dhaka to discuss and India conveyed its concern over the presence of illegal Bangladeshis residing in India.

* 14 Feb 2003, India invited the Bangladesh foreign minister Morshed Khan to meet his counterpart Yashwant Sinha to discuss ways to defuse tension over the illegal immigration issue.

* Indian Deputy Prime Minister L.K. Advani has urged Bangladesh to take back" Illegal Immigrants" numbering about 15 million from India. Advani is in the forefront for the deportation drive.

* 17 Feb. 2003, President APJ Abdul Kalam voicing his concern over the problem at the joint sitting of parliament said “ the problem of illegal migration from Bangladesh has assumed serious proportions and affects many states. The government is determined to take all necessary steps to check this problem”.

* Foreign Secretaries are to meet in the first week of April in Dhaka to discuss this issue.

* Government has decided to complete fencing of the border by 2007, and install neon lights and reduce the distance among watch towers.

* Goverment has also decided to issue National identity card scheme to help track down foreign nationals who pose a security risk.

* A separate division on border management has been created in the union home ministry for focused attention on border related issue.

* The government has sanctioned Rs. 435 crores to the BSF for modernization of its communication network.

* Deployment of high tech electronic surveillance equipment on the border.

* Formation of a state level standing committee and task force by the border states having coastline.

Effects Of Illegal Immigration on India:

* Increase in crime rate and other subversive activities: There has been 20% increase in crime, mainly burglary. Figures show that robbery in the Kolkata suburbs, mostly committed by Bangladeshis (Pioneer 9 Feb 2002). In Bihar 19-20 lakh Bangladeshi nationals have settled down in 4 districts of Purnea, Katihar, Araria and Kishenganj and these districts have become the strongholds of cross-border smugglers and arms mafia. In Punjab recently Bangladeshis were caught up in the organ trade scandal.

* Security threat: Sinha report talks specifically of the disastrous security implications on India. The spectre looms large of the indigenous people of Assam being reduced to a minority in their home state, Balbir K Punj is of the opinion that the infiltration activities has assumed a scary significance in the light of the present “low key Talibanisation “ of Bangladesh.

* Spurt in terrorist organizations: Since 1990 Assam has seen the birth of 9 Muslim militant outfits owing allegiance to Harkat ul Mujaheedin and Lashkar-e-Toiba.

* Demographic and economic threat: drain on our resources. 85% of the total encroached forest land in Assam was found to be in the hands of the Bangladeshi migrants, and 43 of the 126 assembly constituencies in Assam are their stronghold.

* Cheap labor: these migrants are absorbed as cheap laborers in Kolkata and Delhi, Punjab and Mumbai providing cheap labor in contrast to their Indian counterpart.

*Indian government is very poorly equipped in terms of available data, legislative measures etc to sustain flush out operations for a long period of time.

Bangladesh government migration laws- lacunae:

* The immigration law ordinance of 1982 is the basic migration law of Bangladesh specifying rules and regulations for migrant workers and setting a recruiting fees.

* The government has now started playing an active role in the migration process in contrast to passive role in the 60’s. The Bangladesh Bureau of manpower Employment and training (BMET) established in 1976 oversees monitoring the flow of overseas migration.

* The lacunae being that the government has no comprehensive scheme for the returning migrants.

* The whole process of rules and regulations set up by BMET is arduous and time consuming.

* Recruitment fees to be paid to BMET is very high and not payable by the poor , who end up selling their land and houses for payment of the fees.

Suggestions to the problem:

* Temporary work permits to be given to the migrants on humanitarian grounds.

* Fencing of the complete border.

* Resume serious dialogue to demarcate the undemarcated border.

* Put an end to smuggling and cattle trade.

* Clear direction to be given to the BSF to stop further infiltration.

* Amendment of the IMDT Act and enforcing of the Foreigners Act 1946.

* MEA should take serious notice of this problem.

* Systematic, concrete and time bound plan to drive out the illegal migrants.

* The problem to be seen in a wider perspective, not only as a humanitarian problem

Conclusion:

It is high time that the Indian government had a proactive policy rather than a reactive policy to this issue. The need of the hour is to understand that it is no longer a humanitarian problem but a security problem which has become a hydra headed monster. Time has come to deal with it assertively but without hampering bilateral relations. It is time for both countries to understand the seriousness of the issue and set up time bound measures once and for all. This will help in its final solution and the problem will not emerge cyclically as it often does.
 
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Thats because Hindus are persecuted in Bangladesh. No Hindu in their right mind would want to leave India and go join Bangladesh. The was the whole point behind the two-nation(now three) theory.
Dont try to Spin it.......
 
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And what i am trying to point out and have pointed out in my last post is that the loss of those 15-20million has not occurred in a single day but over a period of 41 years.It is not as extreme as you make it out to be.The 9 million legal migrants that you are talking about are migrants from one generation only hence their effect on demographics is more than 15 million spread over 5 generations.

Also i took up the figure of 50 million to prove this point that even if true it is not catastrophic migration but diastrophic.This is the high end figure usually quoted by right wingers.

More neutral assessment put migrant figure at 13.2million ie loss of 5-6 billion bangladeshis over period of 41 years.Hardly a population altering figure.

It is clear to me then that the majority of illegal emigration took place before 1987 and were mostly Hindus. Had a significant number of Bangladeshis emigrated after 1987 this would have shown up in the census figures.
 
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It is clear to me then that the majority of illegal emigration took place before 1987 and were mostly Hindus. Had a significant number of Bangladeshis emigrated after 1987 this would have shown up in the census figures.

How do you explain the population of the poorest division of Bangladesh going down then? I mean negative growth?
 
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How do you explain the population of the poorest division of Bangladesh going down then? I mean negative growth?

What do you mean by the poorest division? Negative growth of what the population or the economy? There is no negative growth in the population which stands at about 1.4% annual increase.
 
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What do you mean by the poorest division? Negative growth of what the population or the economy? There is no negative growth in the population which stands at about 1.4% annual increase.

Barisal Divisions population according to the latest census has gone down compared to the 2000 census. Thats a negative population growth.
 
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Barisal Divisions population according to the latest census has gone down compared to the 2000 census. Thats a negative population growth.

That could be due to internal migration. Just because one division goes down does not mean they all went to India. More likely they left for the Middle East and East Asia or Dhaka or Chittagong. The type of migration you are taking about does not appear in our census after 1987. As I said before significant migration to India too place before 1987 and were mostly Hindus. You now treat them as citizens of India while discriminating against the vastly smaller inflow of Muslims from Bangladesh who really are not migrants but mere visitors who have family links to India that predates the 1947 partition. Simply because they are Muslim you have to exaggerate the issue while ignoring illegal Hindu migration to India pre-1987 which constitutes the most significant inflow into your country.
 
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It is clear to me then that the majority of illegal emigration took place before 1987 and were mostly Hindus. Had a significant number of Bangladeshis emigrated after 1987 this would have shown up in the census figures.

No, the flow of illegal migrants has not stopped after 1987. And there are many reasons for that:-

1) India started the 4095km long fence only from early 2000, that means the border was open-to-all from 1947-2000, and after 11 years the fence still not finished, partly because of delayed construction and partly because of unresolved enclave issue.

2) There are many places at Indo-Bangla border where the border line between two nation is basically a narrow alley (< 3 feet!!! in some area) between two houses.

3) Just pay Rs. 3000 to one of many dalals (illegal agents who take people from one country to another) you can enter from Bangladesh to India without any hitch.

4) The irony is that some BSF and BGB personnel take bribe and turn a blind eye on cross-border infiltration.

But there are hope, NGOs like FRIENDS in manipur (after destroying assam the cancer now spreading to other NE states) are helping police to nab them. But, India needs at least 100 ngos like these in every states to nab millions of illegal Bangladeshis in India.
 
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No, the flow of illegal migrants has not stopped after 1987. And there are many reasons for that:-

1) India started the 4095km long fence only from early 2000, that means the border was open-to-all from 1947-2000, and after 11 years the fence still not finished, partly because of delayed construction and partly because of unresolved enclave issue.

2) There are many places at Indo-Bangla border where the border line between two nation is basically a narrow alley (< 3 feet!!! in some area) between two houses.

3) Just pay Rs. 3000 to one of many dalals (illegal agents who take people from one country to another) you can enter from Bangladesh to India without any hitch.

4) The irony is that some BSF and BGB personnel take bribe and turn a blind eye on cross-border infiltration.

But there are hope, NGOs like FRIENDS in manipur (after destroying assam the cancer now spreading to other NE states) are helping police to nab them. But, India needs at least 100 ngos like these in every states to nab millions of illegal Bangladeshis in India.

Yes but as I have repeatedly stated your statistics and figures do not correspond with the census figures for Bangladesh. The majority of the illegal migration took place pre-1987 and were mostly Hindus who you now accept as citizens of India.
 
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