DCN launches design work for Pakistan submarine

[Tiger Shark]

Originally posted by Prashant@Mar 10 2006, 07:50 AM
tiger shark articles are well formated and wordings look like magazine material,but surprsingly no links...

[post=6904]Quoted post[/post]​

My Dear Brothers here is the link

I hope you will enjoy it


Regards


Tiger



http://dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1013719

 

[Tiger Shark]

Originally posted by Tiger Shark@Mar 10 2006, 08:34 AM
My Dear Brothers here is the link

I hope you will enjoy it
Regards
Tiger
http://dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1013719

[post=6905]Quoted post[/post]​

French daily newspaper La Tribune reported Jan. 11 that DCN’s hopes of selling the Marlin to Pakistan were dashed by a high-level interministerial committee, because a deal with Islamabad would endanger relations with India.

New Delhi ordered in December from Armaris, the DCN-Thales exports joint venture, six Scorpenes worth 2.4 billion euros, armed with anti-ship missiles from MBDA.

A French defense official said Marlin was a DCN project and was not something the government was pushing. “There is a lot of supply and the market is not a gigantic one

 

[Tiger Shark]

Originally posted by Prashant@Mar 10 2006, 07:50 AM
tiger shark articles are well formated and wordings look like magazine material,but surprsingly no links...

[post=6904]Quoted post[/post]​

Deccan Herald » National » Detailed Story



French company to supply submarines to Pak: Report

From Rahul Bedi
DH News Service New Delhi:


French armament conglomerate Direction Des Construction Navales (DCN) — closely involved in the recent Rs 16,000 crore sale of six Scorpene submarines to the Indian Navy — has reportedly completed initial designs for a new conventional submarine type that it plans to offer to Pakistan.

According to Jane’s Defence Weekly of the UK, the French naval builders, combat systems maker and engineering group was considering responding to the Pakistan Navy’s (PN) requirement for at least five new submarines. But it awaited formal clearance from Paris before making Islamabad the offer.

Applications by several French armament manufacturers, including DCN to sell military hardware to Pakistan were reportedly being vetoed by the country’s high-powered defence sales panel on the grounds that such transactions could exacerbate tensions between New Delhi and Islamabad and trigger off an arms race.


Armament industry executives said French defence companies were also “acutely conscious” of the potentially large market India represented and Delhi’s sensitivities regarding weapon sales to Pakistan. This, in turn, prompted circumspection on their part as well as that of the French establishment in all such dealings with Islamabad. In its January 18 issue, Jane’s stated that the design being developed by the DCN, designated Marlin, drew extensively on the technology developed for the export-oriented Scorpene submarine programme. But while the Scorpene, offered to the Indian Navy, was designed in conjunction with Spanish shipbuilder Navantia, DCN is believed to be pursuing the Marlin design as an independent venture. The Scorpenes were sold to the Indian Navy last October by Armaris which was a joint venture between the DCN and Thales, another French defence conglomerate.

Earlier in 1994, the DCN had supplied the PN three Agosta 90B submarines for $ 984 million, two of which had joined service whilst the third is nearing completion at the Karachi shipyard. The PN, which retired four of its French Hangor (Daphne)-class submarines last month, plans to acquire between three and five additional substitutes for delivery over the next decade. Germany’s HDW and Spain’s Navantia are believed to have been asked to submit proposals to the PN for the submarines, Jane’s reported.

Meanwhile, the PN took delivery recently of eight second hand P-3C Orion maritime patrol (MRP) aircraft from the US Navy bringing to 10 its fleet of such assets. Initially, when the US announced the transfer of the surplus MRA to the PN, it indicated that the aircraft would be deployed to augment border security along the Afghan frontier where American forces have been fighting the Taliban since 9/11. But PN officials recently declared that the P-3C’s would, in addition to the Afghan border, also patrol the northern Arabian Sea to keep an eye on the Indian Navy’s activities and also the Persian Gulf region.

Armament industry sources said the P-3C’s were provided free of cost under America’s foreign military sales programme but its manufacturer, Lockheed Martin is expected to subsequently upgrade its avionics suite to suit the PN’s operational requirements. The time frame and cost of this retrofit, however, is not known.

 

[Sid]

Originally posted by Tiger Shark@Mar 10 2006, 03:51 AM

French armament conglomerate Direction Des Construction Navales (DCN) — closely involved in the recent Rs 16,000 crore sale of six Scorpene submarines to the Indian Navy — has reportedly completed initial designs for a new conventional submarine type that it plans to offer to Pakistan.

According to Jane’s Defence Weekly of the UK, the French naval builders, combat systems maker and engineering group was considering responding to the Pakistan Navy’s (PN) requirement for at least five new submarines. But it awaited formal clearance from Paris before making Islamabad the offer.

Applications by several French armament manufacturers, including DCN to sell military hardware to Pakistan were reportedly being vetoed by the country’s high-powered defence sales panel on the grounds that such transactions could exacerbate tensions between New Delhi and Islamabad and trigger off an arms race.

I don't even have to elaborate on this as the applied italics and bold point out clearly what is going on. Now you see the difference between Deccan Herald 'quoting' Janes Defence and giving 'detailed' info and other newspapers only outlining the story?

The others claimed that DCN had started design work on a PN submarine which is utterly false as Janes' report nullified that claim as is to be read here in the Deccan Herald. The design work was NOT started on a PN submarine but an independant submarine project 'Marlin' by DCN which the PN had shown interest in. The people in higher offices of Paris succumbing to pressure from Delhi turned down DCN's request to respond to PN's enquiries but at the same time this is an on-going process.

As stated PN has also invited proposals from Germany's HDW and Spain's Navantia so it is too early to say anything regarding this. Although it confirms my initial observation that no design work or any other work on a PN submarine has begun anywhere! First the PN has to decide which sub does it want and 'then' only can work begin in any form on that desired submarine.

 

[Tiger Shark]

Originally posted by Sid@Mar 10 2006, 05:22 PM
I don't even have to elaborate on this as the applied italics and bold point out clearly what is going on. Now you see the difference between Deccan Herald 'quoting' Janes Defence and giving 'detailed' info and other newspapers only outlining the story?

The others claimed that DCN had started design work on a PN submarine which is utterly false as Janes' report nullified that claim as is to be read here in the Deccan Herald. The design work was NOT started on a PN submarine but an independant submarine project 'Marlin' by DCN which the PN had shown interest in. The people in higher offices of Paris succumbing to pressure from Delhi turned down DCN's request to respond to PN's enquiries but at the same time this is an on-going process.

As stated PN has also invited proposals from Germany's HDW and Spain's Navantia so it is too early to say anything regarding this. Although it confirms my initial observation that no design work or any other work on a PN submarine has begun anywhere! First the PN has to decide which sub does it want and 'then' only can work begin in any form on that desired submarine.

[post=6923]Quoted post[/post]​

Pakistan Seeks 3 Subs From France
New Design Would Free DCN of Spanish Partnership
By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS

Pakistani interest in three attack submarines is forcing France to make hard decisions over industrial interests vested in the DCN naval systems company and diplomatic and economic relations with Spain and India, analysts said.

Islamabad intends to spend $1 billion to $1.2 billion on three patrol submarines, preferably of a new design from DCN but possibly of the German 214 class, a Pakistani official said.

But the potential sale of high-tech weapons to Pakistan may be too much for the French government to swallow. The deal would steady employment at DCN’s Cherbourg sub yard, but would likely antagonize India, with whom Paris recently signed a defense agreement. New Delhi also is a submarine customer, having recently purchased six of DCN’s Scorpene attack subs.

The sale of an all-French design also might raise hackles in Spain. The Spanish are partners in building the Scorpene, but Spain’s Navantia yard is teaming with Lockheed Martin on its S-80 boat.

The Pakistani official said Islamabad “is interested in a single-hull submarine,” distinct from quieter, more expensive double-hulled boats. “We have made it known there is a requirement for three submarines.”
Islamabad wants a formal offer within six months from Armaris, the naval marketing joint venture of DCN and French systems house Thales, so it can order the subs within a year, the official said.

The country also is looking to buy 25 to 30 highly capable fighter aircraft, and is considering the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab JAS 39 Gripen, the official said. A Pakistani delegation is due to go to Italy next month to see the Typhoon go through flight trials, he said.

The pursuit of the Pakistan deal shows DCN wants to develop new subs for export.

“This is a logical move, given DCN’s strong installed base in SSKs [diesel-powered attack submarines] and the attractions of the SSK market,” said Sash Tusa, an analyst at brokerage Goldman Sachs.
But going it alone might be seen as undermining all the recent talk of building European defense, French government and industry executives said.

The submarine sale underlines the clash between industrial and diplomatic interests for France, an analyst said.

“Industry needs it, but the French government does not want to contribute to a potential arms race in the region and cannot afford to upset India,” said Loic Tribot La Spiere, chief executive of the think tank Centre d’Etude et Prospective Strategique.

French military ties with Pakistan date back three decades. The Pakistani Navy was an early export customer of DCN’s Daphne submarine in the mid-1960s, setting the bar for other navies that operated near the Persian Gulf. Pakistan bought three Agosta 90B boats, dubbed the Khalid class, in the mid-1990s. Pakistan’s Air Force has flown the French-built Dassault Mirage III and V fighters.

This longstanding relationship gives DCN an edge in the competition, the Pakistani official said.

“We know their processes, their procedures,” the official said.

Wanted: Export Approval

But if Paris withholds export approval, Pakistan might turn to the 214 submarine built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW), part of Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems. It also might consider buying the subs from China, he said.

DCN is keen to sell, but has had trouble prying export approval from the high-level Commission Interministérielle D’exportation des Matériels de Guerre.

Officially, Armaris has not proposed a new submarine, because it lacks approval for an offer from the committee. But that did not prevent Armaris officials from making an informal product briefing on a DCN design to a Pakistani delegation led by a senior naval officer in mid-February, here.
The Pakistani official said delegation members were given to understand that DCN had been cleared by the export committee to make an offer. A French industry executive, however, said there is no offer because clearance has been withheld.

And a French defense official said, “The attitude towards Pakistan is a very cautious one, where great prudence is needed.”
Armaris declined comment. The Ministry of Defense spokesman was not immediately available. The Foreign Ministry and Prime Minister’s office referred questions to the Ministry of Defense.
A DCN spokeswoman said the company did not discuss its clients and declined comment.

Still, the Pakistani official said his government expects a formal offer next month from Armaris.

DCN’s new design, code-named Marlin, closely resembles the 10-year-old Scorpene design, but would include newer technology, including features of the Barracuda nuclear attack boats to be built for the French Navy.
Marlin would have an air-independent propulsion (AIP) unit, the Pakistani official said. AIP, an alternative to batteries, allows longer periods of running submerged. Pakistan’s third and last Agosta boat is being fitted with a Mesma AIP system, and the two earlier boats will be retrofitted.
Pakistan has not asked for the Scorpene because it does not want to buy the same product as the Indian Navy.

DCN barely made any money on the Agosta deal, the French defense official said. He said it was unlikely the French government would agree to sell new subs at basement prices, the official said.
Pakistan said it got a bad deal because it paid $1.2 billion for the three subs, including a 50 percent down payment on signing in 1994, and the program is three years late.

Independence from Spain

If a Pakistan deal can be struck, DCN would regain the ability to export subs without Spanish participation.

In 1997, the French company partnered with Navantia predecessor Bazan to design the Scorpene because it lacked enough money to do it alone. But healthy sales have padded DCN’s cash accounts to some 2 billion euros ($2.4 billion), giving it enough money to invest in its own design.
Still, the Spanish connection was key to selling Scorpene to Chile, which opened up the Latin American market. But when Navantia installed a combat management system from Lockheed Martin, DCN officials took the rejection of a similar French system as a snub.

One French analyst said Navantia’s purchase of the Lockheed system was influenced by the U.S. administration, which is seeking a way to keep its 2001 pledge to sell eight diesel subs to Taiwan. Since Spain has limited trade with China, Madrid could sell the S-80s to Taiwan with little economic consequences, the analyst said.

Into the balance must be thrown France’s relations with India, which has just bought six Scorpene subs armed with MBDA anti-ship missiles. French President Jacques Chirac visited India and signed a defense agreement on Feb. 19 aimed at boosting industrial cooperation, as well as a preliminary pact to help New Delhi develop civil nuclear energy.

During Chirac’s visit, India’s state airline formally inked a purchase of 43 Airbus airliners, worth $2.5 billion at list price, and 15 ATR regional turboprops.

Dassault Aviation is waiting to see the terms of India’s tender for 126 combat aircraft, and is ready to pitch the Rafale fighter jet, having withdrawn the Mirage 2000-5 from competition.

Christopher P. Cavas contributed to this report from Washington.

 

[Sid]

Still doesn't negate anything I said earlier on. Everything is going on behind-the-scenes right now. Nothing 'official' has been said or proposed. Pakistan still has to decide which sub it wants but it is clear they prefer the French over Spanish and German. But if this doesn't work out I'd expect them to go for HDW-214 as its a very capable platform.

 

[RAPTOR]

The deal is for the Marlin class SSK which is a hybrid between the Scorpene and the newer Barracuda class sub. Pakistan should have gone for 6 of these boats instead of just 3. DCN made the offer, the French government did not give export clearances. Part of the reason was that the indians made the French give assurances that NO further arms sales to Pakistan will be concluded. Add to this , the indians are also dangling the Nuclear reactor sales carrot to the French. I will be very surprised if DCN is allowed to sell the Marlin Subs to Pakistan.

 

[Neo]

KARACHI: Commodore Shahid Saeed, Managing Director Submarine Construction Project, said on Monday that PNS Hamza, the third submarine of the AGOSTA-90-B Class, built by Pakistani engineers and experts in collaboration with France, would be launched in August-2006 for a trial phase and then it would be commissioned in Pakistan Navy in 2007.

Briefing the newsmen at PN Dockyard he said that the first submarine of this series PNS-Khalid had been built in France, following an accord on the basis of Transfer of Technology (ToT) and then handed over to the Pakistan Navy in 1999.

Similarly, PNS-Saad, the second submarine of this series was built in France and Pakistan and commissioned the Pakistan Navy in 2003. He added that PNS Hamza is in the final stages and would be launched by next month for necessary trials and commissioning in 2007.

Giving specifications of the submarines, Commodore Shahid said that in today’s modern warfare, submarines play a very vital role and directly affect the outcome of the war. He said that the submarines by virtue of their stealth sustain endurance and lethality and have been considered to be one of the most potent fighting platforms at sea and the Pakistan Navy, since its birth in 1947, was quick to realise the importance of this technology.

He narrated that the submarine force had been started in year 1964 with acquisition of PNS/M Ghazi from USA. In 1969-70 Pakistan Navy acquired three Daphne class submarines from France. Later in 1975, another Daphne class submarine and in 1980-81 two AGOSTA-70 class submarine were acquired.

He said that in early 90s, when the need to acquire submarines arose, Pakistan Navy decided to construct the new submarines in Pakistan instead of acquiring on hot transfer basis. In this regard, in September 1994, Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production signed the contract for construction of three AGOSTA-90B submarines at PN Dockyard with DCN International, a company of France. The contract included a strong element of transfer of technology in a phased manner embedded in it.

Commodore Shahid said that the central theme of transfer of technology is to acquire the most sensitive technology of pressure hull construction and outfitting of conventional submarines. The submarine being launched is the most advanced version of AGOSTA design. It is 76 metres long and weighs around 2000 tonnes. Its range is 10,000 nautical miles and can remain at sea for continuously 60 days.

He said that submarine HAMZA consists of 50 officers and men. It is equipped with state-of-the-art combat system, the Subtics (Submarine Tactical Integrated Combat System). This is capable of firing SM-39 Exocet Missile and wire guided torpedoes. The unique feature of this submarine is its Air Independent Propulsion (AIPP system, MESMA, making it capable of achieving greater underwater endurance and long range.

The commodore informed the newsmen that Pakistan is the first country to use MESMA AIP system on board a combat ready submarine. Submarine Construction in Pakistan Navy is a continuation of the naval construction efforts, which started in Pakistan Navy Dockyard in 1971 for self-reliance and indigenisation.

It includes construction of floating docks, missile boats, X-Craft submarines and MCMVs. PN Dockyard had 30 years of repair & maintenance experience of DAPHNE and AGOSTA 70 submarines prior undertaking Meta construction project of AGOSTA-90B submarines in 1994.

He narrated that another benefit of this project is a changed quality culture and work methodology. ISO 9002 standard was awarded to PN Dockyard in Nov 1997, the first defence industrial setup to receive this prestigious certification. Presently PN Dockyard is certified to the requirements of ISO 9001-2000 Standard.

Commodore Hasan Nasir, Deputy Managing Director (Production) Submarine Construction Project, Commodore Saleem Akhtar, Managing Director PN Dockyard and Lieutenant Commander Salman, besides others were also present at the occasion.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=15104

 

[RAPTOR]

Still doesn't negate anything I said earlier on. Everything is going on behind-the-scenes right now. Nothing 'official' has been said or proposed. Pakistan still has to decide which sub it wants but it is clear they prefer the French over Spanish and German. But if this doesn't work out I'd expect them to go for HDW-214 as its a very capable platform.

Germany can slap sanctions at any time. The Spanish S-80 submarine project has a lot of American input (Lockheed Martin is supplying the combat systems) . That leaves France as the only country Pakistan can really count on . PN bought its first French Subs in the 60's.