Dassault Well Positioned To Supply Additional 90 Fighters To India: Eric Trappier

[Jamwal's]

36 Rafale is joke for big Air force like India.

Once 36 Rafale are bought off the shelf,the doors for others are closed especially obsolete F 16 to be "make in India"

 

[shah1398]

There is nothing surprising here. 126 deal was always part of the deal negotiations. The deal was divided into two parts as the 36 off the shelf deal is a government-to-government contract while 90 under MII is a contract between RAFALE and Indian Private player.

But the very first move by BJP Govt was the cancellation of MMRCA deal sighting insufficient funds. It wasnt on card always when India went for Govt to Govt deal with France. If the prospects are later on revived then its another issue.
http://thediplomat.com/2015/08/confirmed-indias-mother-of-all-defense-deals-is-dead/
http://www.defensenews.com/story/br...ndia-cancels-12b-combat-jet-program/31097627/

 

[Abingdonboy]

There is nothing surprising here. 126 deal was always part of the deal negotiations. The deal was divided into two parts as the 36 off the shelf deal is a government-to-government contract while 90 under MII is a contract between RAFALE and Indian Private player.

Apart from 126 RAFALEs, 200+ F-16s are also coming as part of the DTTI.

So it is not an either or situation.

Brother, give it up- the F-16 is NOT coming, the IAF was never remotely receptive to that offer.

1) This GoI has put their full weight behind the LCA, they aren't going to induct a platform that kills it off
2) The US is still not willing to offer critical ToT to India that is mandatory for MII. DTTI has so far delivered ToT on mini UAVs and some NBC equipment, now they are offering ToT on the F-16IN? Come on!
3) India hasn't even signed (the revised) LSA, let alone CISMOA and BECA that would be conditional on such a sale


I could go on and on, the idea of the F-16 coming to India is beyond absurd at this point. The F-18 had a sliver of a chance a few weeks ago but after the MoD probed the "offer" they were very unimpressed and thus the Rafale deal was progressed and is now a few weeks away from contract signature.


Plenty more than 126 Rafales are coming, the IAF's need is for at least 200 of them and the IN will require 54 intially but this will double/triple depending on how their carrier plans progress. If I was a betting man I would say that the Vikrant would have a Rafale-M airwing by 2020.

@PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @Vauban @knight11 @Picdelamirand-oil @anant_s @Omega007 @Stephen Cohen @BON PLAN

The story of Tejas would be akin to Arjun's.

Except it won't.

HAL have already outlined their production plane, 16/year from 2018 and 25/year with private sector participation from 2020.

IAF don't want more than 300 sukois for this one reason only. Let's see how it turns out to be. Long way to go.

This is inevitable as HAL will need to keep the Nasik plant humming until the FGFA is ready, they will place an order for at least 40 more so the fleet will be 310+ at least.

But the very first move by BJP Govt was the cancellation of MMRCA deal sighting insufficient funds. It wasnt on card always when India went for Govt to Govt deal with France. If the prospects are later on revived then its another issue.
http://thediplomat.com/2015/08/confirmed-indias-mother-of-all-defense-deals-is-dead/
http://www.defensenews.com/story/br...ndia-cancels-12b-combat-jet-program/31097627/

The BJP cancelled the MMRCA as it existed then because the previous Govt had got themselves into such a mess and made the previous agreement a complete mess that was unworkable.

As such, they cancelled the MMRCA outright, Modi went to Paris in April 2015 to kickstart the govt-govt process to acquire 36 (with a 18 unit follow on option) to meet the immeidate needs of the IAF. Seperately the MoD opened talks wot set up a produciton line in India to produce a minimum of 90 Rafales. This line was crucially going to be a joint venture between Dassualt and a private Indian entity wheras the orginal MMRCA talks had hit a brick wall with HAL's involvement. And just as crucially the new Indian line was being pursued under the new Govt's "Make in India" policy and will come under the DPP-2016 that was released a few weeks ago.

The total requirement for Rafales in India exceeds 300 when you count Indian Air Force and Navy needs.

 

[kaykay]

This news makes sense and precisely what Perrikar was talking about a medium weight aircraft production line in India...now the question is whether its gonna me more Rafale or F-18/16....( Rafale I wish)

 

[Abingdonboy]

This news makes sense and precisely what Perrikar was talking about a medium weight aircraft production line in India...now the question is whether its gonna me more Rafale or F-18/16....( Rafale I wish)

Any hope of the F-18 (F-16 was never in contention) made in India/being inducted by the IAF/IN died when Ash Carter (US SECDEF) went home empty handed nable to even sign the LSA. Despite Boeing's bravado they were not able to offer a competitive offer (in terms of ToT) because the USG refused to do so.

Dassualt is the ONLY OEM that has got to these advanced stages of finalising plans for a made in India fighter line.

Rafale all the way now....

 

[Echo_419]

Then the next question is: is India well positioned to supply the demanded cash for those jets?

Economy is back on track, so yes

 

[kaykay]

Any hope of the F-18 (F-16 was never in contention) made in India/being inducted by the IAF/IN died when Ash Carter (US SECDEF) went home empty handed nable to even sign the LSA. Despite Boeing's bravado they were not able to offer a competitive offer (in terms of ToT) because the USG refused to do so.

Dassualt is the ONLY OEM that has got to these advanced stages of finalising plans for a made in India fighter line.

Rafale all the way now....

Well for sure Rafale makes more sense and looking favourite for now...In coming days, things will be more clear. let see.

 

[shah1398]

This line was crucially going to be a joint venture between Dassualt and a private Indian entity wheras the orginal MMRCA talks had hit a brick wall with HAL's involvement.

Sir thats quite an ambitious project but ultimately these Rafales are to be supplied to IAF and IN in the beginning but my point is that one of the many snags that hit earlier MMRCA project was that India wanted Dassault to take ownership of the quality of aircraft produced in HAL, to which Dassault objected, my point is that either Dassault becomes the main stakeholder in MII Rafale venture otherwise no one in India is much proficient in aircraft manufacturing than HAL. Any company Dassault pairs with will be a partener but the main onus of quality of aircraft produced would be on Dassault again. Another part of Rafale project was generation of jobs in France and MII is actually taking jobs out of France in this current scenario.This is the confusing part.

 

[Abingdonboy]

my point is that either Dassault becomes the main stakeholder in MII Rafale venture otherwise no one in India is much proficient in aircraft manufacturing than HAL.

Now HAL is out of the picture this is exactly what will happen, Dassualt has been given permission by the MoD to sign up with any Indian entity that they wish but that they will have to guarentee the quality of the product and the delviery timelines. Given that any partner Dassualt signs up with will be Dassualt's choice one can be sure they will find an Indian partner who will play by Dassualt's "rules" and doesn't have any of the "baggage" of HAL that has its own entrenched mindset and considers itself Dassualt's equal.

Another part of Rafale project was generation of jobs in France and MII is actually taking jobs out of France in this current scenario.This is the confusing part.

I don't really see how that is true, the follow-on Indian purchase is conditional on an Indian production line so without it Dassualt gets 0 orders. The Indian line is taking any jobs out of France on the contrary an Indian production line will create many job opportunities for Dassualt in India and in France to support India's line. Furthermore, the Rafale is securing a lot of export interest/success these days so they will be quite busy with their current produciton line in France for the forseeable future. An Indian production line is win-win for Dassualt and India.

 

[Vyom]

There is nothing surprising here. 126 deal was always part of the deal negotiations. The deal was divided into two parts as the 36 off the shelf deal is a government-to-government contract while 90 under MII is a contract between RAFALE and Indian Private player.

Apart from 126 RAFALEs, 200+ F-16s are also coming as part of the DTTI.

So it is not an either or situation.

F 16s are not coming. Peace out.

 

[knight11]

Sir thats quite an ambitious project but ultimately these Rafales are to be supplied to IAF and IN in the beginning but my point is that one of the many snags that hit earlier MMRCA project was that India wanted Dassault to take ownership of the quality of aircraft produced in HAL, to which Dassault objected, my point is that either Dassault becomes the main stakeholder in MII Rafale venture otherwise no one in India is much proficient in aircraft manufacturing than HAL. Any company Dassault pairs with will be a partener but the main onus of quality of aircraft produced would be on Dassault again. Another part of Rafale project was generation of jobs in France and MII is actually taking jobs out of France in this current scenario.This is the confusing part.

The problem is something different, and misguided by Media and Dassault was not doubting HAL capability or the quality of the Rafale produced. The real reason was Dassault wanted all the tools and equipment needed for the production line from the French OEM's and do not wanted HAL to issue global tender for them.

E.g you make a deal with the China to produce some product in Pakistan produced by some OEM of pakistan, but Chinese Company is demanding, that all the tools, spanners, welding machines, scales, meter, instrument should be from the Chinese Companies certified Vendor, and demanding no other Vendor's equipment satisfies the Quality criteria of the product, which could be gauranteed by the Chinese OEM. But Pakistani OEM, thinks that they are getting better or equivalent quality of tools in cheaper price from Turkey what China is charging.

Second Dassault, is already creating the jobs in France, because they are supplying 36 +18 Fly away Raflae to IAF, and many other global orders, but creating another line in India, would help in future support and MRO facilities for the global user. That is what Russia is doing for so many years, when the parts are subassemblies could be supplied from the India to the Asian and African customer and creating many India suppliers for the Sub assemblies, and OEMs developing subsystems which are more cheaper and better.

F 16s are not coming. Peace out.

@dadeechi leave aside F-16 even combat Drone Predator is not available for India, nor India is seeking it, because it is interested in non-cambat drone variant aka Avenger from USA. If you still want to live in that world, its your own choice, but better come out unless it goes too far.

 

[shah1398]

The problem is something different, and misguided by Media and Dassault was not doubting HAL capability or the quality of the Rafale produced. The real reason was Dassault wanted all the tools and equipment needed for the production line from the French OEM's and do not wanted HAL to issue global tender for them.

E.g you make a deal with the China to produce some product in Pakistan produced by some OEM of pakistan, but Chinese Company is demanding, that all the tools, spanners, welding machines, scales, meter, instrument should be from the Chinese Companies certified Vendor, and demanding no other Vendor's equipment satisfies the Quality criteria of the product, which could be gauranteed by the Chinese OEM. But Pakistani OEM, thinks that they are getting better or equivalent quality of tools in cheaper price from Turkey what China is charging.

And Sir thats something new for me and never even reported in media and thats quite strange. General perception was that its the insistence of HAL that Dassualt shud be responsible for the end product from HAL. That is why French stuff is always damn expensive as when they themselves reportedly make as small as a rivet to as large as Engine themselves, they make sure they sell everything associated along with with that product too.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

 

[shah1398]

Now HAL is out of the picture this is exactly what will happen, Dassualt has been given permission by the MoD to sign up with any Indian entity that they wish but that they will have to guarentee the quality of the product and the delviery timelines. Given that any partner Dassualt signs up with will be Dassualt's choice one can be sure they will find an Indian partner who will play by Dassualt's "rules" and doesn't have any of the "baggage" of HAL that has its own entrenched mindset and considers itself Dassualt's equal.

Sir in that case any other company than HAL will be more or less just a face show and main affairs wud be run by Dassault itself. What i see is that company wud be pouring mainly money in but ofcourse wud perform some projects too. May be any company on avionics/armament side from India wud be probable partener for Dassault. Given then expertise and rich experience of HAL no other Indian company can tag long Dassault as HAL could/can.

 

[kaykay]

haha btw this is 100th time someone has posted this pic....I don't know when it will be the last time. lol