Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

Well some sort of PR was expected from US in 2-3 days time for the recent events in the region ( delivery of 4 f-16).

Its a good marketing strategy.

Im all for Rafale or EF..

Yes, Rafale is the best option, but I would chose the Gripen NG, over the EF.

 

[vishal]

Yes, Rafale is the best option, but I would chose the Gripen NG, over the EF.

i think EF with TVC would be bst
Gripen NG shares most of the features with our very own LCA Mk2

 

[soaringphnx]

i think EF with TVC would be bst
Gripen NG shares most of the features with our very own LCA Mk2

The MiG-35 is a further development of the MiG-29K ordered by the Indian Navy. MiG-29s are already operated by the IAF, so these can be inducted with minimal expenditure and changes to infrastructure. It supposedly has smokeless engines and comes with the Zhuk AE AESA. 3D TVC comes as an option. There is the possibility that we may get a customised version like the Su-30MKI, though this would in my opinion only slow induction. Going by experience, the price will be low, but according to wikipedia, "product support for the MiG-29 has been less than adequate". Russia is willing to offer "full" ToT, though I doubt this would help as India already has access to most of it's techs through other deals like the FGFA. The MiG-35's future is uncertain with no orders from any country (including Russia). Choosing the MiG-35 also means relying on Russia for almost the whole of India's combat fleet. It is likely that the IAF will look for European or American (not recommended) fighters for political benifits and access to western tech.

The F-16IN has been described by Lockheed Martin as, “the most advanced and capable F-16 ever”. The F-16 has been around for nearly 40 years but it still commands respect among the experts. It is combat proven, has operated in all parts of the world in very demanding conditions. According to some reports, Lockheed MArtin has offered the F-35 as replacements in future if the F-16 is selected. However, will Lockheed Martin keep the F-16 production line open long enough and provide us with a reliable source of spares? This can be solved if Lockheed Martin transfers the entire assembly line to India as once offered for the F-5. However, some reports indicate that the Indian Air Force is not too interested in buying the F-16, since the Pakistan Air Force already operates the same type, and, having had exercises along with F-16s of the USAF, RSAF and other air forces. In fact, Lockheed Martin is willing to supply more advanced to the F-16s. However, the Chinese operate the Su-30MKK and Su-27, but that did not stop India from buying Su-30MKIs from Russia. There is also a fear of sanctions and limited ToT. At any rate, I don't feel this is the best option as there are more capable fighters in the competition.

EFT has been offered with TVC - a huge plus. It has the ability to supercruise though it is still to be seen if it possible with full weapons load. The EFT's EJ200 is one of the engines under consideration for the LCA. It uses less American components, so it offers more ToT and less chances for sanctions. India has been offered to join the European consortum, though not as an equal member. EFT is more capable than the Rafale (and possibly all other contenders) in air-to-air combat, but the IAF already have Su-30MKI for this role. So it is most likely that the decision will probably be for a ground-attack fighter. While the EFT does have air to ground abilities, the rafale and the F-18 offers more in this area. The EFT's Captor AESA Radar is still under development. EFT is also the costliest fighter in the competition.

The Gripen has good air-to-air and air-to-ground abilities and is cheap - so it will be choosen if the IAF is looking for a cheap, easy to maintain fighter. It has the ability to supercruise though it is still to be seen if it possible with full weapons load. SAAB has offered source codes of it's AESA - a huge plus point. It is powered by the General Electric F414, one of the engines under consideration for the LCA. However, it uses American components (including engine), so there is a small risk of sanctions. The Gripen gives competition to our home made LCA. It also doesn't give us much geopolitical benefits.

The F-18 is an old but proven platform. It offers the best air to ground abilities of all the contenders. It's AESA has spurred the interest of the IAF. It's General Electric F414 is one of the engines under consideration for the LCA. It is carrier compatible. However, it is an old platform and though it is used by the US Navy, focus will be on the F-35. It comes with limited ToT and the fear of sanctions.

The Rafale (my choice) is a true multi-role fighter. It has good air to ground abilities while it does not compromise on air to air combat. It offers the best compromise between the F-18 and EFT. Since it is almost 100% French, it can offer more ToT and less chance of sanctions. France has been a reliable arms supplier in the past. France has offered India the source codes if it's software - a huge plus. There has been an offer to integrate the Kaveri into the Rafale. It is carrier compatible. Though not stealth it has a reduced RCS. The French have indicated that they intend to go beyond a buyer-seller relationship (though they have not specified how). India already has Mirages, so less money needs to be spent on infrastructure changes and training. However, the AESA radar is not fully ready (as far as I know). Though pricey we may get a good deal since the French are desperate.

IMO, the Rafale is the best option if IAF is looking for a true multi-role fighter, the EFT for air-superiority, the Gripen for cost-effectiveness, the F-18 (not recommended) for pure strike ability and US relations.

 

[flanker143]

IMO, the rafale is the best option if IAF is looking for true a multi-role fighter, the EFT for air-superiority, the Gripen for cost-effectiveness, the F-18 (not recommended) for pure strike ability and US relations.

thats what i am saying buddy ..... we dont need another air sup fighter with su 30 mki already in hand and pak fa comin in few years !!

we need fighter that has gud air to ground capability ...to replace those 27's and jags as lca will replace mig 21s and will be used for mainly air defense and ground attacks that are closer to home base !!

 

[sancho]

i think EF with TVC would be bst
Gripen NG shares most of the features with our very own LCA Mk2

TVC is just another feature that will benefit EF in the A2A role, where it already is very good, but where it lacks behind is the A2G role, even compared to Gripen NG and that's why I would choose Gripen NG over EF.
In A2A the Gripen will have the same radar, only in smaller size, the same AIM9/AIM120, or Iris-t/Meteor combo, delta canard design, for high manouverability and SC, just like the EF has. Why should we pay so much more per unit and in operational costs for the EF then?
The only advantages the EF has over Gripen NG has for India are, offsets, ToT and to more political influence, but if you compare just both fighters, it would be better for IAF.
However, the best choice is still the Rafale and just as you said the similarity of Gripen to LCA is also a point against it.

 

[soaringphnx]

Can anyone please tell me the status of Rafale's AESA?

 

[flanker143]

Can anyone please tell me the status of Rafale's AESA?

testing phase is almost complete and may have low rate entered production .... as far as i know

may be this will help mate

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/RADAR11048.xml

 

[sancho]

Can anyone please tell me the status of Rafale's AESA?

It is developed and was fielded in the trials of MMRCA, as well as the Swiss competition. The French forces will get it by 2012 and they will be the first European fighter to have an operational AESA radar. It is reported that it will have 1000 t/r modules, but I'm not sure abot the diameter of the radar. Many sources claim 50% range increase compared to the actual RBE 2 PESA, which means around 190Km against targets with a RCS of 3m². It also can detect 40 targets at the same time and engage up to 8 of them.
There might be better radars in the competition, but the RBE 2 AA is clearly a good option and offered with full ToT + source codes!

 

[sancho]

testing phase is almost complete and may have low rate entered production .... as far as i know

may be this will help mate

Thales Begins Rafale AESA Production | AVIATION WEEK

Mate, that article is from 2008!

 

[flanker143]

Mate, that article is from 2008!

still its good !! and what it said in 2008 is the current state of the radar in 2010

 

[Sri]

I found some interesting points from Brazil competition.
like Rafale was offered at 78m$ etc. pl check the info below

The cost of the advance

It takes the government to decide which game will equip the Air Force delays plans for defense of the country and threatens the credibility of the negotiations with the three finalists

Claudio Dantas Smith and Octavio Costa



FIGHTING Factory Dassault: 36 fighters would cost $ 10 billion

The competition for the purchase of 36 fighter jets by the FAB, estimated at $ 10 billion, seems an endless novel. In the latest chapter, the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim announced further postponement in the selection of fighters, this time to January 2010. It said the reasons for and command of the FAB remain silent so as not to break the hierarchy. The cost of this uncertainty is enormous, because it affects not only the credibility of the negotiations and delay the defense plans of the country, which sees its airspace vulnerable. "You can not stay in this litany. Whether the political criterion, either by coach, you need to resolve them, "said retired Colonel Geraldo Cavagnari, the Center for Strategic Studies at Unicamp. He explains that, once decided to purchase, will run six months until the contract is signed. For the analyst of international security Gunther Rudzītis is necessary to prevent a repeat of the failure of the FX program, held over the last year of the Cardoso government, and finally canceled in 2003. Brazil is in urgent need of a generation of fighter aircraft to ensure the safety of the heavens and their wealth in the territorial sea. ISTOÉ obtained confidential details of the offers of the finalists: the French Rafale from Dassault, the American F-18 Super Hornet, Boeing, and the Swedish Gripen NG, the Saab.

The report shows the FAB strengths and weaknesses of each plane using a color code (blue, yellow and red) instead of notes.

Of the three, the French jet introduced technology package more comprehensive and Swedish appears at first sight, had the best price. Your unit value, without the package of armaments and maintenance costs, is U.S. $ 50 million. It would be a good deal, not for the Gripen NG only one project in development. This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs and ensure compliance with deadlines. Despite the expectation of development together with Embraer, the dome of Defense knows that choosing the Gripen NG would be like signing a blank check. FAB this item marked in red. "You can not buy what is on the drawing board," warns Cavagnari. In fact, the historical records of the airline industry in the world attest to the instability of estimates on a plane is not yet operational. The F-18 Super Hornet, for example, showed average growth of 100% between the amount originally planned pelosfabricantes and the final cost of the project, which reached U.S. $ 9.5 billion.


SHADOWS The French Rafale is a fighter with more ability to remain invisible to enemy radar

Nevertheless, the U.S. fighter is offered today at a stable price of $ 55 million. In the case of the Rafale, to be fully operational, it took 7.5 billion euros (U.S. $ 10.9 billion), a difference of 50% over the initial estimate. Your unit price without arms and support was 94 million euros ($ 136 million) when he began to be sold, but then fell to 54 million euros ($ 78 million). This is the value offered to Brazil in the last proposal and even practiced by Dassault with the French government. Besides the price issue, raised by President Lula during the visit of French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy ABrasilia in September, is at stake in the term. According Cavagnari, the defense sector is in the process of dismantling advanced, which began in 1995. "We have immediate needs of air power that must be addressed," he explains. Then there is another problem. FAB to receive the first aircraft in 2014. Who guarantees to deliver the request in a timely manner? Dassault is in the production line of Rafale heated by new orders from the French government, which gives security to meet the deadlines. The Boeingtradição punctuality in sales of F-18. Already a Saab should take eight years to make their hunting operation. For example, the radar that will equip the Gripen began to be developed this year alone.

"To have an idea, Saab develops radar Caesar for the Typhoon fighter for five years and forecast to be ready is 2016. Now they say they can develop a similar radar, the Raven, to equip the Gripen NG, 2011. I find it unlikely, "said the expert Pedro Paulo Rezende. Another important point in the analysis of FAB is the cost of flight-hours. An airplane that consumes too much is not feasible in the long term. The time of flight of the F-18 is $ 11 thousand, while that of the Rafale is U.S. $ 14 mil. Since the Gripen, according to Saab, it would be $ 4 mil. But the Technical Committee of the FX-2 (Copac), from calculations based on data extrapolated maintenance Gripen C / D (prior to version NG), found a very different value: U.S. $ 8 mil. Similarly, Norway and the Netherlands, to assess the Swedish hunting, came to U.S. $ 10 mil. The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention. The F-18 won blue for that matter, but reddened under "radar signature", which means tracking by enemy radar. The Rafale, according to official figures, the game is more "invisible" among competitors.

From Some brazilian news translated and posted to
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=95786&page=26

 

[Dark Angel]

a difference of 50% over the initial estimate. Your unit price without arms and support was 94 million euros ($ 136 million) when he began to be sold, but then fell to 54 million euros ($ 78 million). This is the value offered to Brazil in the last proposal and even practiced by Dassault with the French government

Interesting read

 

[Sri]

If we take the euro pricing i.e. 54m euro then its current conversion is 67 M $. which is pretty reasonable per unit price.

And I feel the same (uncertainties) about NG. Any comments

Tx
Sri

 

[maithil]

Yes..one more advantage of euro fighters is that EURO is down now..so we'll be paying significantly less money if we order now...but then our NETAJEES will also get smaller kickbacks ..so possibility of this is LADDU..

 

[sancho]

If we take the euro pricing i.e. 54m euro then its current conversion is 67 M $. which is pretty reasonable per unit price.

And I feel the same (uncertainties) about NG. Any comments

Tx
Sri

Hi Sri, although this is good news for Rafale, we have to keep in mind that this is the fly away price, without weapons, training, spares..., if you add these Rafale should be above $100 millions again.

More interesting to me are different point of the report like:

the French jet introduced technology package more comprehensive

or:

The French Rafale is a fighter with more ability to remain invisible to enemy radar

But also some interesting points about Gripen NG that I claimed before too:

Swedish appears at first sight, had the best price....the Gripen NG only one project in development. This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs and ensure compliance with deadlines. Despite the expectation of development together with Embraer, the dome of Defense knows that choosing the Gripen NG would be like signing a blank check. FAB this item marked in red. "You can not buy what is on the drawing board,"

also:

Another important point in the analysis of FAB is the cost of flight-hours. An airplane that consumes too much is not feasible in the long term. The time of flight of the F-18 is $ 11 thousand, while that of the Rafale is U.S. $ 14 mil. Since the Gripen, according to Saab, it would be $ 4 mil. But the Technical Committee of the FX-2 (Copac), from calculations based on data extrapolated maintenance Gripen C / D (prior to version NG), found a very different value: U.S. $ 8 mil. Similarly, Norway and the Netherlands, to assess the Swedish hunting, came to U.S. $ 10 mil. The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention.

As I always said, Gripen NG is undeniably the most cost-effective fighter, but most of its capabilities are only available on art work so far, or are in testing in the Demonstrator. It has not a single order yet and the operational calculations are made on basis of older Gripen version, but these proved to be wrong in several competitions, just like in Brazil now.
Keep in mind that it was offered in MMRCA with a cost per flight hour of just $3000 and it will be interesting to see where our calculations will end.
Besides that, the report confirmed Rafales technical advantage and after the report of ATLC exercise, it is the second time that its RCS is claimed to be very low. Then compared to EF, now compared to F18SH and even to the smaller Gripen NG, but as I said often too, its only downside are the costs.