Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

Some interesting news why Brimstone wasn't integrated to Rafale, as it was expected after the Libyan war:

(Google translated)

MBDA Brimstone believes in on Rafale

And if it was precision weaponry which today still lack the Rafale? It must be said that between 30 mm cannon and 250 kg bomb, the French fighter aircraft does not have a collateral effect reduces ammunition, as demonstrated by Operation Harmattan in Libya. From 2011, the British team were therefore approached Dassault MBDA, the DGA and the Air Force to propose their solution to the problem: the AGM Dual Mode Brimstone (DMB), a small arms from 50 kg to guide hybrid and semi-active radar laser which was brilliantly during the operation, which was implemented by the Tornado GR4 of the Royal Air Force.
Technically, the feasibility of the operation seemed to be no doubt. "On Rafale, it is possible to achieve a minimum first integration in about 12 months," confirmed Adrian Monks, head of the unit "Short Range Surface Attack" at MBDA, during a briefing given on the occasion organized by the 3AF, which was held in Paris from November 27 to 29 "Delivering Precision Effects in a Complex Environment" conference.

This integration "emergency" would be about carrying six missiles in point 2 wing on triple similar to those now used by the Tornado adapters. A solution that will allow more hand to carry AASM during the same mission, they are also included in this part of the wing Rafale.

However, further integration of Brimstone Rafale would consider "a maximum payload of 12 missiles," according to Adrian Monks. Which could be obtained by opening paragraphs 3 wing (near the Mica missile wing tip), now unused, or even the rear fuselage side points today reserved for air-air missile Mica and tomorrow at Meteor.

Why the integration of Brimstone did not she made in 2011? No official response emerges, but everyone has his little explanation. Critics of the British solution, the note was as too salty: first for the integration itself, some amounted to approximately € 100 million for the carriage of six missiles, and then because of the cost Unit of Brimstone, which proves to be higher than the AASM in its more complex versions (laser and infrared). Years Furthermore, Sagem logically saw a very dim view of the arrival on the Rafale a competitor missile while the French manufacturer is trying to get funding for a AASM "light" of 125 kg , low side effect, whose feasibility has already been demonstrated.

Another possible explanation is very average performance of the Damocles pod designation in the identification of small targets in urban environments would not be permissible to reproduce Rafale performance obtained by the trio Tornado GR4/nacelle Litening / Brimstone during operation Harmattan. Hence the reluctance of the French part to fund the integration of the missile, if the "eyes" of the aircraft did not follow. That is why the British side, we say today until the end of the decade and the advent of F3-R standard (with new nacelle PDL NG ) for "re-attack" Rafale folder. Unless a customer does not impose export to put it on the carpet in the meantime ...

Missiles : MBDA croit au Brimstone sur Rafale - Air&Cosmos


High costs for integration were expected as reasons, the brits might not want to make the difference between Rafale and EF even higher. The unit cost to be higher than AASM would be surprising though, but might have to do with AASM price for French forces, while Brimstone would come at export customer costs, including development costs...
Also very interesting the point of the average performance of the current Damocles, which might make it even less likely that IAF will chose it over the Litening for M2K UPG, or Rafale.


At the same time, the EF at least makes baby steps (with Saudi funding) to improve it's capabilities, with the first flight with integrated Storm Shadow missiles:

That config however only leaves the centerline station for a 1000l fuel tank, which means it hardly is useful for deep strike missions. That's why it needs CFTs in future, unless the targets are in closer distance (Iran from Saudi Arabia):

Eurofighter Typhoon | Eurofighter Typhoon: Flight tests with Storm Shadow missile started

 

[sancho]

does anyone know if litening will be integrated to indian rafales or they will carry damocles? and will we go for Meteors on our rafale or if Astra will be integrated?

We currently have a competition for new LDPs going on, to supply M2K UPG and most likely Rafales with new targeting pods. Thales is offering the Damocles, which BEL might produce in India, while Rafael offers the Litening G4 + an upgrade of the already existing Litening 3s to the G4 level. Capability and cost wise, the Israeli option should be the better one, the only point to go for the French pod would be a co-development for the PDL NG pod, but so far there are no statements on such an offer from the French side.
Another problem for the Litening however could be a licence production of the G4 in India, since it includes US parts as well (jointly developed by Rafael and Northrop Grumman - AN/AAQ-28(V) LITENING Targeting Pod

The first Rafales should have MICAs only, since METEOR induction is only planned for 2018 and we won't pay for an early integration anymore, with the delays of the competition. Astra is not even close to be ready and available, let alone would have the capability to be integrated to Rafale. The best weapon mix for Rafale F3+ is MICA IR and METEOR, to have passive and active BVR attack capability, next to the advantages of MICA in close combat and METEOR with long range and no escape zone.
More interesting again would be a co-development here, since we already are trying to develop the Maitri SAM SR missiles, which will be based on MICA VL anyway and France has plans for future MICA upgrades. Combining both requirements in a joint project with shared costs, would be a logical choice, but again sadly no offers from the French side know so far and our side might still believe we can do it alone.

If the IAF is more familiar with the use of ARMs and chooses to have them in inventory for the MMRCA., then the logical choice is the Russian one as it is already available to them.

Those are Russian offers and speculations not from IAF or any Indian officials. In fact it's highly doubtful that IAF want to integrate Kh 31 to Rafale, since the AASM attack with SPECTRA is far more effective and simply combining Rafale and MKI in joint SEAD tactics is much cheaper (MKI with Kh 31 attacking the radar, Rafale with AASM the missiles and both from long distances although 125Kg PGM would be the better choice here). Integrating a Russian missile to the French radar and avionics, as well as the weapon stations should be difficult and costly, not to mention that even the US had proposed HARM for Rafale and the same role, which is as unlikely imo.

This equipment is still not planned for the French AF although pilots voiced an inclination towards it but the govt decided to put it on the back-burner and use the cash for what it deemed to be more pressing developments.

It was planned for the F3 years ago, since the Topsight and the Gerfault helmets were evaluated and a final decision with a planned order for several hundreds and as you said, the AF pilots repeatedly asked for it in intervies of A&C or DSI, only the navy pilots wasn't that eager about it. Sadly costs for the fundings wasn't cleared and as it seems won't be from French government until the MLU in 2025 possibly, since it's not included in the F3R uprades either. So the only hope in this case is India or the UAE.

 

[Dillinger]

its better in air but has 0 air-to ground mode
also no sensor fusion and no aesa(as of now)

What makes you say that it has no sensor fusion, pray elucidate upon what sensor fusion exactly entails?

The A2G capabilities of the EF are indeed below acceptable standards.

 

[he-man]

What makes you say that it has no sensor fusion, pray elucidate upon what sensor fusion exactly entails?

The A2G capabilities of the EF are indeed below acceptable standards.

i meant relative to the rafale
iread the swiss air force assessement of rafale and typhoon and they mentioned that rafale had way better fusion

 

[Dillinger]

i meant relative to the rafale
iread the swiss air force assessement of rafale and typhoon and they mentioned that rafale had way better fusion

The IM architecture is nigh the same, Rafale simply happens to have better sensors and more cogent man-machine interface and data display ergonomics..

 

[Taygibay]

@sancho,
you got the time table for Meteor integration mixed with the French procurement mate! The integration has started already at DGA.
Rafale tests Meteor air-to-air missiles - Brahmand.com
The 2018 date is for the first missiles bought to be delivered!
Hence there is no problem for the use of the Meteor by IAF / MMRCA Rafales.

I concur on your opinion about the Damocles though. I certainly hope that PDL-NG is on the table for the negotiations. It would be hard to bet on co-development honestly as that work too is already started. But there is still time to establish a local production at least as part of the ToT / offsets.

I also fully agree on your take on the KH-31 ( "might come along" ) and yes, that the official answers were indeed Russian. And your outlined tactic seems quite sound.
( MKI_Raffy tandem work )
Still, there have been mentions of differences to be between IAF and AdlA ACs by Rafale Intl. Thus, until the contract is signed and revealed, I'll keep an open mind to what could be in it. HMD/HMCs is a given, some foreign integrations are likely and could explain part of the projected hike in the price of the deal.

And the Gerfault / Topsight was never planned. I consider a thing planned when preliminary work and moneys are cleared. Neither were for these equipments. Yes, as I said ( "voiced an inclination towards it" ) you are right to point out it was hoped for! But hopes are cheap and reality more costly.

Thanks for the link about the Brimstone. I had missed that and it is quite logical and thus credible.

@he-man,
there is a given level of sensor fusion on the 2nd/3rd Tranche Typhies, mate! It's just that it occurs in a "piggy back" computer to the central system and not incorporated fully from the beginning. That remains the particularity of SPECTRA ( Hence its name ) that it was conceived as a full suite to be unified to the plane's controlling computers from the onset. And oh marvel, for once, we thought of making it fully upgradable with serial units in a rack! So darn rare in France where it seems we rarely plan ahead!
And Storm Shadow is expected as part of the PE2-B around 2017 by the program's nations. The maker though considers it feasible to have the AESA in 2014-15 and Storm Shadow as well. That accounts for some of the discrepancies in time tables. Sadly, the abandon save possibly as exports add-ons of the Tranche 3-B doesn't make it likely that any phase advance will take place. But said crudely, one could regard the PE1-B as meaning that Typhoons will have the F-3 capabilities albeit 3+ years later or just before the F3-R forbids them from catching up.

Good day all, Tay.

 

[sancho]

@sancho,
you got the time table for Meteor integration mixed with the French procurement mate! The integration has started already at DGA.
Rafale tests Meteor air-to-air missiles - Brahmand.com
The 2018 date is for the first missiles bought to be delivered!
Hence there is no problem for the use of the Meteor by IAF / MMRCA Rafales.

Not exactly, since the integration is aimed on the F3R upgrade to provide the needed wirings and software upgrades to use the weapon. The current F3+ with AESA are not able to use METEOR, which means if the integration is not fully done till we get the first squad, we will get the METEOR only from 2018 onwards. It's basically only a matter of money to speed up the integration and upgrades, but even if the missile will be in production by 2015, the upgrades are needed to use the missile :

I concur on your opinion about the Damocles though. I certainly hope that PDL-NG is on the table for the negotiations. It would be hard to bet on co-development honestly as that work too is already started. But there is still time to establish a local production at least as part of the ToT / offsets.

A co-production with access of all important techs would definitely be interesting too, but just outsourcing production to reduce costs won't be enough for sure and the high price tag of the PDL NG will be an issue too, so access to tech is the only way.

Still, there have been mentions of differences to be between IAF and AdlA ACs by Rafale Intl. Thus, until the contract is signed and revealed, I'll keep an open mind to what could be in it. HMD/HMCs is a given, some foreign integrations are likely and could explain part of the projected hike in the price of the deal.

Of course, because IAFs requirements are different to the one of French forces Indian Rafale unlike French F3+ will have:

- HMS
- IRST
- custom data link
- rumors say SATCOM too
- most likely Litening LDP
- most likely SPICE 2000 (although UAE's AASM alternative looks promissing too)
- possibly some minor Indian techs and parts
- possibly Sudarshan LGB and Brahmos mini in future

So that alone is very different from what the French forces will get, or what Qatar might buy.

And the Gerfault / Topsight was never planned. I consider a thing planned when preliminary work or moneys are cleared. Neither were for these equipments. Yes, as I said ( "voiced an inclination towards it" ) you are right to point out it was hoped for! But hopes are cheap and reality more costly.

Both Sagem and Dassault had officially announced the selection of Gerfault HMS for the F3 in 2005, which was done after the evaluation of both helmets and tests were done. So requirements was stateded - evaluation held - decision made, which is far more than preliminary work or hope, but the as you said as well, it was kicked for cost reasons.

Thanks for the link about the Brimstone. I had missed that and it is quite logical and thus credible.

France (or India) should consider SPIKE NLOS, twice the range of Brimstone and most likely cheaper too, our own Helina would be nice too, but seems to be a long shot solution only.

 

[he-man]

thanks for clarifications man

 

[Taygibay]

Sadly, there are more ( clarifications ) needed!

Sancho mate, I have recognized in the past that you are one of the most knowledgeable posters on the Rafale and I maintain it. This said, your sources are most often too general (not insider cues ).

The Rafale planes at STANDARD F3-R will be delivered in 2018. For that to happen, the Standard itself will have to be fulfilled a couple to a few months before as it takes that time to build the aircrafts! So the Standard will be ready by the end of 2017 at worst. Similarly, for a standard to be validated, the individual capacities have to be achieved prior to validation which means that the integration of the Meteor will have to be done by early 2017 max. The word at Dassault and DGA when you ask politely ( for instance at the Paris Air Show ) is 2016.
By the way, the 3 years span for delivery of the 18 fly-away units is to reach 2017 in less than 30 days? Just sayin'

Now, I would understand if you again tried to swipe my remarks out of the way with some piece from here or there on the Net so that I will provide an example related to your second contention on the HMD/HMCS.
Fact : Topsight was the initial choice! Except that it was actually tested by the DGA on a Mystère XX test bed plane as well as in centrifuges and very little on the Rafale itself during the period at which Raffys were nearing induction :
http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/Les essais en Vol du RAFALE.pdf

"
encore sur le simulateur Rafale par exemple pour la mise au point

des symbologies du TOPSIGHT."
Transl. "... and beyond on the Rafale simulator for the Topsight symbols repertoire set-up."

Then the Gerfault was deemed better as you pointed out but check here :
http:// www.safran-group .com/site-safran/presse-et-medias/ espace-medias/article/gerfaut-l-oeil-percant-de-safran
Copy paste and remove spaces to get the link.
where one can read : "Pour le programme Rafale France, 336 casques Gerfaut ont été commandés à ce jour, avec des livraisons série à partir de 2006. Le casque Gerfaut fait également partie de la suite avionique du Rafale proposé à l’export."
Transl. " For the French Rafale program, 336 Gerfaut helmets were ordered to this day, with regular deliveries starting in 2006. The Gerfaut helmet is equally part of the export offer avionic suite of the Rafale."

Neither of which is true!

Straight from Safran literature? I defy you to find one official paper from the French government to accredit that lie! One! Find me a ministerial redaction stating as much or a parliamentary report indicated that the money for it was cleared! You will not be able to for the very simple reason that this is bu..sh.t! The Gerfaut was first found to necessitate more development, more than expected as the CEV DGA found problems with it. Then the money slated for it was diverted to the AESA development which was deemed to be more important which is clearly the fact as it was required in the MMRCA whereas the integration of TopSight is effective in India and thus much simpler to transfer to the Rafale than a non-existent radar which would be otherwise as it is for the Typhoon?

That choice was clearly stated by Capitaine Romain, the same pilot that wrote about his Rafale A-Stan experience, in a TV interview the link to which is now sadly dead or I would have given it to you.

Do you now see what I mean about sources? It is no disrespect to you, man! It just happens that this kind of embellishment of reality is standard practice by manufacturers, French as well as foreign!
The only infos I accept personally are those from the French government in official publications or those by French Armed Forces personnel as long as they do so under their full name and in public interviews.

By the way, I served for those Armed Forces? Contrary to what some other posters have said, I would find it condescending to explain to you how the Gurkas operate since I never trained alongside them? I'd really appreciate the same courtesy in return? It's my land ( I was born in Paris, for Pete's sake ) and served in the 80s. I went to the Bourget under military clearance where I had the immense luck of meeting Mister Dassault himself? The great original Marcel, not the kids! This does not make me a know-it-all but it helped me form an ability to judge the specific French military environment that I am, politely, not sure you can boast of?

I am sorry for this run-off at you but I am getting really tired of the nitpicking. If you want to be right at all costs despite reality, I can leave you to be the sole holy grail provider on this forum, no skin of my back. I left more renowned ones without batting an eyelid, hence the blog instead of the endless discussions! And although you don't know me personally, rest assured that I won't hold any grudge whatsoever.

In any case, my advice to you would be to stay prudently dubious of almost any truth less it has been demonstrated to you, proved!
But if you insist to say that Meteor is only to be available by 2018, then I can play the commercial literature game right back at you :
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2012/08/FOXTHREE_16.pdf

From which :


"In early 2011, the French Ministry

of Defence announced an order

for an initial batch of 200 Meteor

missiles to equip both French Air

Force and French Navy Rafales,

with the new missile to enter

operational service in 2016. "

Page 5.

So which will it be, man? You accept that Dassault proved me right in its own Rafale newletter? Or you accept that commercial pamphlets are useless, mine or those you find included, and thus make me right on the HMD?
Or we just relax the mind games and agree to be a little less sure / full of ourselves and wait for reality to emerge?
Again, your pick, I won't complain, promise!

In the meanwhile, a good day to you and yours and all others on Defence.PK, Tay.

 

[halloweene]

As thales has bought visionix, it could also be the incoming HMD...

 

[IND151]

Reliance, Dassault planning facility to produce wings for Rafale | idrw.org

New Delhi: France's Dassault Aviation and Reliance Industries are planning to set up a facility to produce wings of Rafale combat aircraft selected by IAF for meeting its requirement of 126 fighter planes. The two firms are planning to set up a Rs 1,000-crore facility for producing the wings of the Rafale combat aircraft and it is most likely to come up in Bangalore, industry sources told PTI in New Delhi. Wings for the fighter. Under the plan, Dassault Aviation would help Reliance to establish the factory similar to its production facilities in France where the aircraft is produced, they said. The defence ministry and other agencies concerned have given a go ahead to the two companies for creating the unit, they said. India had selected Dassault Aviation's Rafale plane last year after a five-year-long process in which five other companies had participated. Dassault and the defence ministry had been engaged in long contract negotiations after which the ministry finalised the deal, which is expected to cost around Rs 60,000 crore. Earlier, the French firm and the defence ministry were engaged in a tussle over the role of the defence arm of the Reliance Industries in the contract. Dassault wanted Reliance to be the main partner in production of the aircraft in India but the government made it clear that it was not possible as the tender for the procurement clearly stated that aerospace PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would be the lead integrator for the project. The differences over the issue have been resolved and Dassault and HAL have started readying their teams for implementing the project after it is signed.

Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/business/r...hter-jets-1279705.html?utm_source=ref_article

 

[Storm Force]

Looks like reliance wil get a finger in the massive MMRCA pie when india signs the contract.

IM GLAD that private companies are beginning to play in military affairs it wil help indian military in future.

I want to see future LCA TEJAS programme to shared with private players too

 

[sancho]

Sorry, must have missed your reply

The Rafale planes at STANDARD F3-R will be delivered in 2018. For that to happen, the Standard itself will have to be fulfilled a couple to a few months before as it takes that time to build the aircrafts! So the Standard will be ready by the end of 2017 at worst.

And that exactly explains why the first Indian Rafales can't have METEOR:

(google translated)

...When it was built in the spring, military planning law (LPM) 2014-2019 foresaw that a contract would be signed in 2013 - India, which negotiates the purchase of 126 Rafale while doing figure safest outlet - for delivery from 2016. The bankers Ministry therefore considered that, of the eleven Rafale coming out of the chain of Merignac in three years, seven will be reserved for export, against four in France...
...it is only after twelve to eighteen months after the beginning of its manufacture a Rafale integrates its final configuration. In other words, Dassault still until mid-2014 to "steer" irreversibly production in 2016 between French aircraft, Indian and Qatari Doha is another hot prospect at the time …

Google Übersetzer


As I told you earlier, India didn't evaluated the F3R, but the F3+ and the production of the first of the 18 fighters that would be delivered in 2017 has already begun, with the final configuration be set till mid 2014. So unless the METEOR integration is done by then, these fighters will remain in the F3+ configuration, while the licence production can include METEOR capability.

But if you insist to say that Meteor is only to be available by 2018, then I can play the commercial literature game right back at you :

Hehe, too bad for you that the latest version of Fox 3 says:

So just like in the case of the Gerfaul HMS, the government revised their earlier decisions.

Fact : Topsight was the initial choice!

It was the first helmet that was tested, not a selected choice. The later evaluation however included the alternative of Sagem too and as you also admit, it was found to be better then the Topsight and was selected for the F3 upgrade, but later cancelled, again as you said to use the funds for other upgrades. So only because you claim that the Sagem statement is wrong, doesn't make it automatically wrong, especially since even Dassault confirmed the same back then too (and since you quoted Dassault as well, I guess you take them as a reliable enough source or?):

(Fox 3 no 8, page 3).

So the manufacturer of the helmet as well the manufacturer of the fighter „officially“ confirmed the selection and still people want to deny it, only to say that there wasn't funding released and therefor were no issues for funding upgrades in the Rafale.
Btw, IF the only issue would had been technically problems of the helmets, the development would had been proceeded and it would be integrated later in the F3+ or at least in the coming F3R upgrade, however no further funding was released for the developments, or the testing. It's of course not that of an issue as it is for the EF, but even the Rafale suffered from lack of funding and that's why HMS, CFTs, or IRST are dependent on export customer funding today.

Then the money slated for it was diverted to the AESA development which was deemed to be more important which is clearly the fact as it was required in the MMRCA whereas the integration of TopSight is effective in India and thus much simpler to transfer to the Rafale than a non-existent radar which would be otherwise as it is for the Typhoon?

That's wrong, since at the time the helmets were evaluated, the M2K-5 was in the competition in MRCA and not Rafale, so funding AESA had nothing to do with India back then, infact Dassault offered it and an AESA integration for S.Korea and Singapore first. Just like the Topsight prototype that was tested in Rafale back then, hardly is the same Topsight that is available today.
When you also look at the reports from the UAE deal, it is clear that France still prefers the Gerfault helmet, since that reportedly is offered to the UAE, if they funds it.

As thales has bought visionix, it could also be the incoming HMD...

It still would require funds for the intgeration and most likely diverting production as an offset. So it's not the issue which helmet it might be, but that somebody funds the integration and.
For Indian forces commonality of Topsight will be interesting, but if another helmet offers advantages, why not?

 

[Taygibay]

OK, Sancho, that reply was filled enough with bad faith for me to catch your drift.

You quote a Google translation ( while I speak French ) the title of which you conveniently avoided as it says that "Since the export deal has not been signed the govt will have to fund the building of those Rafales as per its contractual 11 per year obligation to do so" or the exact opposite of your pretense!
Disingenuous at best.

Going on to repeat the 2017 date, are you? When you know full well A- that this date is moving away with every day that passes and B- that there is as I explained no correlation between a given capacity and a standard which does not concern you as it is for the French forces?
Believing that a repeated lie becomes a truth, are we?

Going on to provide the Fox Three no 17 as proof when I gave you the Fox Three 16 in link ( which you forgot to do BTW ) disregarding that what changed in those 3 months ( Sept/Dec ) is that the French govt confirmed the date of entry in FRENCH service? Whereas before, the plane's maker was talking from the standpoint of what it could provide?
To difficult to grasp, is it?

And then, lo and behold, you move on to provide the Fox Three no 8 as a source? From 2005 just as my ( link confirmed ) Sagem document? And try to pass that as proof when I specifically asked you for a governmental source explaining how these do not exist? And anyone with half a brain and an eye attached to it can see that there is no HMS/HMCS on French Rafales as of today, December 10 2013 or 8 years later?
What do you think that proves exactly?

I'll tell you what I think it proves, that you like being right in fora more than being right in reality to the point of refusing the latter to permit the on-going existence of the former! Or alternatively that you simply like the noise you make over the absence of meaning it carries.
If I was certain that you do so intentionally, I'd call you by one of the memes that describe such behaviour since the Internet started ( I was there ) and leave Defence.Pk to your greedy claws but I'd rather think you don't understand or maybe are a kid or something like that.
So that I will keep posting the truth along with the proofs thereof as it may benefit some of our fellow forumers but otherwise ignore you.
You may keep at this schizophrenic game of yours all you want, until you either turn blue in the face or feel content that you "won". Be my guest!
I just will not acknowledge those rants hence.
No hard feelings, I wish you and yours all the best in your future endeavours and especially the wisdom needed to make them fruitful, sincerely, Tay.

The above is not meant for all others posters and I respectfully am sorry for the ungracious side of this exchange.

@ Halloweene in particular, I have appreciated your quality in fora where I used to dwell such as key/p. If you ever have the time and the inclination, do come by my blog ( address below )
and use the contact form in it to join me by google e-mail Tay.

 

[sancho]

OK, Sancho, that reply was filled enough with bad faith for me to catch your drift.

You quote a Google translation ( while I speak French ) the title of which you conveniently avoided as it says that "Since the export deal has not been signed the govt will have to fund the building of those Rafales as per its contractual 11 per year obligation to do so" or the exact opposite of your pretense!
Disingenuous at best.

And what has it to do with the METEOR? Nothing, because it doesn't matter who gets these fighters at the end, the important point (that you surely have understood, but that you don't want to admit) is, that these fighters that will be delivered in 2017are F3+ standard, no matter if they go to French, or Indian forces and that they can't have METEOR unless the integration is done till mid next year, which even you think will be done only by 2017!
So although you speak French and have "inside sources", your claims simply don't add up! Of course you can remain with "your" truth, just like you can wrt to the HMS, but forgive me when I take 2 official manufacture sources as more reliable than your claims (and you don't have anything else) that all that was just a lie.

The rest is just hilarious, so lets leave it at that.