Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions
- Thread starter Srirangan
- Start date
- Status
sancho
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2009
- Messages
- 13,011
- Reaction score
- 27
- Country
- Location
@Screaming Skull
First of all thanks for the link, it is really interesting and offers good infos!
Now to your post, I think you misinterpret it, because imo there is no great premium on cost in the selection!
The key is the last sentence of your quote:
In the final phase the MoD normally asks the vendors for the final costs, or details (amount of ToT, offsets, other deals related to this ) of the deal and the one which is the cheapest, or offers the most will win.
Now to the Mig, I cant agree that the Mig is the best bang for the buck, because if we want a Russian air superiority fighter with added a2g capabilities, 3D TVC, lower RCS, OLS and a long range radar for a unit cost of $40 50 million, wouldnt you also take the upg MKI and not the Mig 35?
It is more capable, as cheap, can be integrated as easy, because pilots needs less training, commonality to existing fighters and the infrastructure for logistic / maintenance is ready. Even on maintenance bases the Mig might not be better although it is a medium class fighter:
For comparison, the new S117 engine of upg MKI:
So if IAF and MoD wanted only a cheap and easy to integrate replacement, they simlpy would have gone with more Mig 29 SMT, or Mirage 2K in the first MRCA competition, or now would take more upg MKIs, without any fear of delays. But that is not the case, they are ready to spend money if it's worth it, that's why they chose A330 MRTT over more IL 78 tanker and C17 over IL 76 transport aircrafts.
Imo this new competition is about integrating different weapons and capabilities into the IAF fleet, getting new techs and possibly political benefits, but exaclty these benefits can't be offered by the Mig 35! Nearly all techs and weapons that it offer, are/will be in the AF through MKI, it is in the same role and offer the same capabilities and it wouldn't mean no political benefit, because Russia is already one of our closest supporters. That all makes it unlikely that the Mig 35 will win the competiton!
Btw, I dont think Rafale is the best, or technically most advanced aircraft in the competition, because its radar is only average (with ~140Km detection range it fulfil the requirement, but some others could be better) and the engine might not offer enough thrust for our hot climate.
The reason why I still prefer the Rafale is that it offers the best package of advantages, that nearly no other contender can offer!
For example:
- it offers the most full ToT of techs that are new and not available in IAF now, or will be through other developments (Pak Fa/FGFA)
- it is offered with the further development and integration of Kaveri engine, that would be an amount of customisation with indigenous parts that no other contender can offer
- No restrictions and control, because it is offered with source codes of radar and other systems and we can reprogram them for our needs (btw are there any end user agreements about the M2K fighers?)
- with its omni role design, it offers the most balanced performance in all roles (equally good in a2a and a2g), which makes it perfectly suitable between LCA and MKI, without competing them in their roles (EF and Mig are too close to MKI, Gripen NG too close to LCA)
- besides the Mig, it is the only aircraft that already has a infrastructure for logistic and maintenance in India
- also besides the Mig, the Rafale is the most sanction prove fighter, because all techs are French and they were a reliable partner in the past
- its maintenance costs are aimed at M2K, so it could be the most cost-effective double engine fighter in the competition
- besides F18SH and F16IN it is the only aircraft that is fully developed now and already has combat experience (at least in a2g role)
- techs like OSF, Spectra EWS, or RBE 2 AESA radar, or weapons like Mica, AASM and Exocet should fit, or could be used with LCA too, what makes LCA more leathal and offers more commonality
All this should make clear that the Rafale is worth the money and we would get more than enough in return. As you said before, we don't have to get the best, or the most advanced fighter, but that one that suits best in the IAF fleet and offers the most benefits.
First of all thanks for the link, it is really interesting and offers good infos!
Now to your post, I think you misinterpret it, because imo there is no great premium on cost in the selection!
The key is the last sentence of your quote:
That means, MoD doubts that all 6 contenders will meet all their requirements and only a few will qualify to the final phase, in other words will be short listed. That is a common way is such procurements, in Singapore for example the EF was short listed after the test and evaluation phase, because it didnt met the requirements (most likely a2g capabilities, some sources say because of the production delays that were likely) and only the Rafale and the F15 went to the final phase. Same way in Brazil now, from 5 contenders at the beginning only the Rafale, Gripen NG and the F18SH are/were left in the competition.
In the final phase the MoD normally asks the vendors for the final costs, or details (amount of ToT, offsets, other deals related to this ) of the deal and the one which is the cheapest, or offers the most will win.
Now to the Mig, I cant agree that the Mig is the best bang for the buck, because if we want a Russian air superiority fighter with added a2g capabilities, 3D TVC, lower RCS, OLS and a long range radar for a unit cost of $40 50 million, wouldnt you also take the upg MKI and not the Mig 35?
It is more capable, as cheap, can be integrated as easy, because pilots needs less training, commonality to existing fighters and the infrastructure for logistic / maintenance is ready. Even on maintenance bases the Mig might not be better although it is a medium class fighter:
For comparison, the new S117 engine of upg MKI:
ÍÏÎ "ÑÀÒÓÐÍ"
So if IAF and MoD wanted only a cheap and easy to integrate replacement, they simlpy would have gone with more Mig 29 SMT, or Mirage 2K in the first MRCA competition, or now would take more upg MKIs, without any fear of delays. But that is not the case, they are ready to spend money if it's worth it, that's why they chose A330 MRTT over more IL 78 tanker and C17 over IL 76 transport aircrafts.
Imo this new competition is about integrating different weapons and capabilities into the IAF fleet, getting new techs and possibly political benefits, but exaclty these benefits can't be offered by the Mig 35! Nearly all techs and weapons that it offer, are/will be in the AF through MKI, it is in the same role and offer the same capabilities and it wouldn't mean no political benefit, because Russia is already one of our closest supporters. That all makes it unlikely that the Mig 35 will win the competiton!
Btw, I dont think Rafale is the best, or technically most advanced aircraft in the competition, because its radar is only average (with ~140Km detection range it fulfil the requirement, but some others could be better) and the engine might not offer enough thrust for our hot climate.
The reason why I still prefer the Rafale is that it offers the best package of advantages, that nearly no other contender can offer!
For example:
- it offers the most full ToT of techs that are new and not available in IAF now, or will be through other developments (Pak Fa/FGFA)
- it is offered with the further development and integration of Kaveri engine, that would be an amount of customisation with indigenous parts that no other contender can offer
- No restrictions and control, because it is offered with source codes of radar and other systems and we can reprogram them for our needs (btw are there any end user agreements about the M2K fighers?)
- with its omni role design, it offers the most balanced performance in all roles (equally good in a2a and a2g), which makes it perfectly suitable between LCA and MKI, without competing them in their roles (EF and Mig are too close to MKI, Gripen NG too close to LCA)
- besides the Mig, it is the only aircraft that already has a infrastructure for logistic and maintenance in India
- also besides the Mig, the Rafale is the most sanction prove fighter, because all techs are French and they were a reliable partner in the past
- its maintenance costs are aimed at M2K, so it could be the most cost-effective double engine fighter in the competition
- besides F18SH and F16IN it is the only aircraft that is fully developed now and already has combat experience (at least in a2g role)
- techs like OSF, Spectra EWS, or RBE 2 AESA radar, or weapons like Mica, AASM and Exocet should fit, or could be used with LCA too, what makes LCA more leathal and offers more commonality
All this should make clear that the Rafale is worth the money and we would get more than enough in return. As you said before, we don't have to get the best, or the most advanced fighter, but that one that suits best in the IAF fleet and offers the most benefits.
Screaming Skull
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2009
- Messages
- 1,451
- Reaction score
- 0
@sancho
Mig-35 is a very capable and potent fighter for all the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. I have had couple opportunities to interact with a few IAF test pilots during AI-07 & AI-09 and they too rated it very highly. So, I really have no doubt in my mind that it will qualify for the second round of the competition along with two other fighters. After this it will be the MoD’s call. Remember, it is not the IAF’s job to evaluate how much ToT each fighter brings or what additional technologies India achieves from specific fighters. The IAF’s job is to only evaluate each fighter’s performance and gauge it with respect to the performance that it wants or expects. There is a separate team of engineers from ADA & HAL that will evaluate the tech and ToT related issues and advice the IAF and MoD on the same.
So, a simple question to you-what if both Rafale and Mig qualify for the second round? What if the Mig outperforms the Rafale during the IAF’s flight evaluations (trust me it is highly probable)? What then will be the criteria to choose between the two? Will the prospect of getting specific superior western technologies with Rafale outweigh the cost benefits that the Mig brings?
Regarding some of the other points you raised in your post-
-the MKI no longer costs 40-50 mil. The upgraded one could cost twice as much. Moreover, the option of going for additional MKIs was considered initially, but was later dropped when the IAF realized that a medium category fighter was required to augment its capabilities.
-IAF was really keen to get the M2K but by the time the MoD could take a call, Dassault had closed the production line.
-we bought the transport aircrafts and refuellers in small numbers so the cost difference wasn’t much. Also, the difference in capabilities between the said western and Russian systems was pretty high. In this case the difference between the Mig and the others is not much; in fact the Mig might thump some of its competitors
In the end I l just paraphrase what I said in my two posts- I will be elated if Rafale wins the contest- I won’t be disappointed if Mig or EF win it, but I will be crestfallen if any of the other fighters were to win the contest. That said all the fighters participating in the contest are very capable. Any fighter amongst the 6 when inducted into IAF will greatly enhance its capabilities. I am just trying to second guess the MoD’s decision. I could be hopelessly wrong in the end!
Mig-35 is a very capable and potent fighter for all the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. I have had couple opportunities to interact with a few IAF test pilots during AI-07 & AI-09 and they too rated it very highly. So, I really have no doubt in my mind that it will qualify for the second round of the competition along with two other fighters. After this it will be the MoD’s call. Remember, it is not the IAF’s job to evaluate how much ToT each fighter brings or what additional technologies India achieves from specific fighters. The IAF’s job is to only evaluate each fighter’s performance and gauge it with respect to the performance that it wants or expects. There is a separate team of engineers from ADA & HAL that will evaluate the tech and ToT related issues and advice the IAF and MoD on the same.
So, a simple question to you-what if both Rafale and Mig qualify for the second round? What if the Mig outperforms the Rafale during the IAF’s flight evaluations (trust me it is highly probable)? What then will be the criteria to choose between the two? Will the prospect of getting specific superior western technologies with Rafale outweigh the cost benefits that the Mig brings?
Regarding some of the other points you raised in your post-
-the MKI no longer costs 40-50 mil. The upgraded one could cost twice as much. Moreover, the option of going for additional MKIs was considered initially, but was later dropped when the IAF realized that a medium category fighter was required to augment its capabilities.
-IAF was really keen to get the M2K but by the time the MoD could take a call, Dassault had closed the production line.
-we bought the transport aircrafts and refuellers in small numbers so the cost difference wasn’t much. Also, the difference in capabilities between the said western and Russian systems was pretty high. In this case the difference between the Mig and the others is not much; in fact the Mig might thump some of its competitors
In the end I l just paraphrase what I said in my two posts- I will be elated if Rafale wins the contest- I won’t be disappointed if Mig or EF win it, but I will be crestfallen if any of the other fighters were to win the contest. That said all the fighters participating in the contest are very capable. Any fighter amongst the 6 when inducted into IAF will greatly enhance its capabilities. I am just trying to second guess the MoD’s decision. I could be hopelessly wrong in the end!
Kharian_Beast
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2008
- Messages
- 1,645
- Reaction score
- 0
This is where the IAF's sphere of influence and authority ends, and where politics and government come into play. All of the aircraft are better than MiG 21's and many of them are very similar in performance and pricing as well as ToT transfers. The winner will be whoever India can politically benefit from the most and that will 100% be the United States.
Tejas-MkII
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2009
- Messages
- 410
- Reaction score
- 0
sorry trails are not over still EF,rafale,gripen is left for trails..
Also trail for high altitude(leh) and in desert (thar) is left for F-18 and F-16 (by mid of 2010)..... that's only the first round of trial after that firing of weapons ...willl be done in their home land (end of 2010)......
After that IAF give their view on different Ac and GoI make the final decison(by 2011)....
sancho
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2009
- Messages
- 13,011
- Reaction score
- 27
- Country
- Location
I think it's time for a clear comparison!
A2A:
Speed & Thrust - Though the upg M88 engine, or a possible Kaveri - Snecma engine are not ready now, advantage Mig
Maneuverability - both could have a similar t/w ratio, so it will end up with canards vs. TVC. I would say advantage Mig
Radar - if the latest reports are true and 200Km are achiveable, again advantage Mig
Missiles - R73 and R77 vs. Mica IR/ASRAAM/Sidewinder and Mica EM/Meteor/AMRAAM, I would say advantage Rafale, because of newer technology
RCS - below 1 for Rafale vs. ? of the Mig, but the fact that the Rafale was designed to have a low RCS and the Mig airframe is just a slight upg of the older Mig 29 with RAM coatings, let me doubt the it can compete that. Advantage Rafale
EWS and Avionics - clear advantage to Rafale, because the Mig needs to be added with French, or Israeli techs to be competitive
A2G:
Payload - 9,5t for Rafale, 6,5t for the Mig, advantage Rafale
Weapon stations - 14 vs. 9, advantage Rafale
Anti ship missiles - 4 x Exocet/Harpoon vs. 4 x Kh-31A/Kh-35E, equal
Anti radiation missile - 5 Alarm/Harm vs. 4 x 4хKh-31P slight advantage Rafale
Guided bombs - 3 x 1000Kg, 5x 400Kg and up to 12 x 250Kg vs. 4 x KAB-500Kr, clear advantage Rafale
Cruise missiles - 3 x Scalp vs. ? advantage Rafale
Feel free to disagree, but I don't see how the Mig should outperform the Rafale.
As you said IAF will compare which aircrafts and which suits best in IAF and the fact that we will have more than 300 fighters (MKIs and upg Mig 29) with nearly the same capabilities, will not be a benefit to the Mig. That's why I said the Rafale suits better and offers more different capabilities to IAF.
The next criteria will be ToT and again Rafale offers clearly more, because those techs are new and not already available in IAF now, so ADA & HAL will beneft way more if they get more access to western techs.
And the final criteria, the cost of course!
On the one side the Mig with unit costs of around $40 - 50 million, plus costs for additional western techs and on the other, unit costs of around $80 - 90 million, but less maintenance costs.
IMO you can sum it up in a simple sentence. Pay more get more, pay less get less!
As I said before, if the aim is just a cheap and cost-effective replacement, we would have gone for Migs, or M2K long time ago. But now we want more and multiple advantages and benefits that Rafale offers, makes it clearly worth the money!
I hope for an European winner, because those fighters have the newest techs and more important gives us more independence!
All eggs in one basket makes us only more dependent to Russia and we will remain just as a buyer and not as a partner on the same level.
Same reason for the US, you just have to look at countires like South Korea, Japan, UK, or Israel to understand that they never will be real partners and always remain buyers. I think India don't need such a relationship anymore and should not go to a direction that could force anykind of pressure on us, unnecessary if it is Russia, or the US.
And if we have to pay more money to get that kind of freedom and independence, it's more than worth it!
Last edited:
Tejas-MkII
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2009
- Messages
- 410
- Reaction score
- 0
@sancho
good comparison dude...
Its clearly advantage rafale...
and if GoI and IAF want less dependency and agree to pay more ...than ..
Game rafale...
good comparison dude...
Its clearly advantage rafale...
and if GoI and IAF want less dependency and agree to pay more ...than ..
Game rafale...
Tejas-MkII
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2009
- Messages
- 410
- Reaction score
- 0
The Hindu : Karnataka / Bangalore News : Rafale lands in Bangalore
Rafale lands in Bangalore
BANGALORE: Rafale, the French built fighter aircraft and one of the six fighters competing for the Indian Air Forces (IAFs) multi-billion dollar multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal is in Bangalore. Two twin-engine delta-wing multi-role fighters designed and built by Frances Dassault Aviation and piloted by IAF and French pilots have been undertaking flights which are part of the MMRCA flight trials from Bangalores HAL Airport since Tuesday.
Officials said the two French aircraft had flown non-stop to Bangalore from Dassaults Flight Test Centre at Istres in France, thanks to the fighters in-flight refuelling capabilities.
One of the most modern fourth generation fighters, the Rafale is in use with the French Air Force, and the French Navy for their carrier-based operations. Officials said the Rafale met all the air staff qualitative requirements sought by the IAF and that Dassault was prepared to transfer all the technology that was required by the Indian side. They pointed out that the Rafale had a functioning Active Electronically Scanned Array radar.
Dassaults bid had the strong backing of the Nicolas Sarkozy Government.
Piloted by IAF and French pilots, the two trainer aircraft will be based in Bangalore for the next fortnight, flying over, and in and out of Bangalore as they take part in the first phase of the flight trials. During the two weeks the aircraft will fly to Leh for the high altitude/cold weather trials and Jaisalmer for the hot weather trials.
Dassaults technicians, pilots and maintenance crew will train and show IAF test pilots and flight test engineers the capabilities and uniqueness of the Rafale.
Besides the IAF test crews, the specially formed Indian Evaluation Team has representatives from the Ministry of Defence, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the Defence and Research Development Organisation, Directorate-General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance and Air Headquarters. Two evaluations teams have been formed for the MMRCA flight trials.
The next phase of flight trials will involve weapon firing trials in the country of the aircrafts manufacturer. Besides the Rafale the other aircraft in contention for the $ 10 billion to $12 billion deal are Boeings F/A-18, Lockheed Martins F-16IN Super Viper, the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Companys Eurofighter Typhoon, Russias Mikoyan MiG-35 and Swedens Gripen JAS-39.
Its sad that nobody get this info...
Rafale lands in Bangalore
BANGALORE: Rafale, the French built fighter aircraft and one of the six fighters competing for the Indian Air Forces (IAFs) multi-billion dollar multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal is in Bangalore. Two twin-engine delta-wing multi-role fighters designed and built by Frances Dassault Aviation and piloted by IAF and French pilots have been undertaking flights which are part of the MMRCA flight trials from Bangalores HAL Airport since Tuesday.
Officials said the two French aircraft had flown non-stop to Bangalore from Dassaults Flight Test Centre at Istres in France, thanks to the fighters in-flight refuelling capabilities.
One of the most modern fourth generation fighters, the Rafale is in use with the French Air Force, and the French Navy for their carrier-based operations. Officials said the Rafale met all the air staff qualitative requirements sought by the IAF and that Dassault was prepared to transfer all the technology that was required by the Indian side. They pointed out that the Rafale had a functioning Active Electronically Scanned Array radar.
Dassaults bid had the strong backing of the Nicolas Sarkozy Government.
Piloted by IAF and French pilots, the two trainer aircraft will be based in Bangalore for the next fortnight, flying over, and in and out of Bangalore as they take part in the first phase of the flight trials. During the two weeks the aircraft will fly to Leh for the high altitude/cold weather trials and Jaisalmer for the hot weather trials.
Dassaults technicians, pilots and maintenance crew will train and show IAF test pilots and flight test engineers the capabilities and uniqueness of the Rafale.
Besides the IAF test crews, the specially formed Indian Evaluation Team has representatives from the Ministry of Defence, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the Defence and Research Development Organisation, Directorate-General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance and Air Headquarters. Two evaluations teams have been formed for the MMRCA flight trials.
The next phase of flight trials will involve weapon firing trials in the country of the aircrafts manufacturer. Besides the Rafale the other aircraft in contention for the $ 10 billion to $12 billion deal are Boeings F/A-18, Lockheed Martins F-16IN Super Viper, the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Companys Eurofighter Typhoon, Russias Mikoyan MiG-35 and Swedens Gripen JAS-39.
Its sad that nobody get this info...
Tejas-MkII
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2009
- Messages
- 410
- Reaction score
- 0
It may be posted earlier about Rafale AESA...
Also for those who say RAfale have no AESA..
http://www.****************/aesa-radar-successfully-tested-on-rafale-fighter-aircraft-18117/
AESA Radar Successfully Tested on Rafale Fighter Aircraft
NEUILLY, France: Thales announced today that its RBE2 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar has successfully completed a new series of tests on the Rafale at the Cazaux flight test centre in Southwest France from February to March.
These tests, carried out jointly by Thales and the French defence procurement agency (DGA), provided functional validation of the radars operating modes.
This milestone marks the latest step towards qualifying the RBE2 AESA radars this year in readiness for delivery of the first two units to Dassault Aviation during the first quarter of 2010. The radars will be installed on the aircraft in 2011 for delivery to the French Air Force early in 2012.(same time when MMRCA should be inducted)
The successful tests are the latest in a long line of key milestones. Thales began developing an AESA radar demonstrator in the 1990s and conducted exploratory tests at the flight test centre in 2002 and 2003 to refine the concept. In 2004, the French defence procurement agency DGA backed the project with a contract to develop a prototype of an operational active-module radar.
At the end of 2006, Thales completed its first active phased array, comprising some 1,000 gallium-arsenide T/R modules manufactured by European firm United Monolithic Semiconductors (UMS).
The active phased array, which replaces the passive array in the RBE2 currently operating on the Rafale, offers many advantages:
range extended by over 50% for future compatibility with new weapon systems like Meteor;
higher module reliability for reduced cost of ownership (no array overhaul required for 10 years)
waveform agility for high-resolution synthetic aperture (SAR) imagery in air-to-ground mode and better resistance to jamming.
Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, Senior Vice President in charge of Thaless Aerospace Solutions for Governments Sector, commented on the achievement of this new milestone: The success of this latest series of tests on the RBE2 AESA radar consolidates Thaless European leadership position. Moreover, it will help to affirm the Rafales technological superiority as the omnirole aircraft performs flight demonstrations for potential export customers, confirming its excellent performance as it has recently in Switzerland and the United Arab Emirates.
Thales is a leading international electronics and systems group, addressing Defence, Aerospace and Security markets worldwide. The Groups civil and military businesses develop in parallel and share a common base of technologies to serve a single objective: the security of people, property and nations.
Thaless leading-edge technology is supported by 22,500 R&D engineers who offer a capability unmatched in Europe to develop and deploy field-proven mission-critical information systems. The Group builds its growth on its unique multi-domestic strategy based on trusted partnerships with national customers and market players, while leveraging its global expertise to support local technology and industrial development. Thales employs 68,000 people in 50 countries with 2008 revenues of EUR 12.7 billion
Also for those who say RAfale have no AESA..
http://www.****************/aesa-radar-successfully-tested-on-rafale-fighter-aircraft-18117/
AESA Radar Successfully Tested on Rafale Fighter Aircraft
NEUILLY, France: Thales announced today that its RBE2 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar has successfully completed a new series of tests on the Rafale at the Cazaux flight test centre in Southwest France from February to March.
These tests, carried out jointly by Thales and the French defence procurement agency (DGA), provided functional validation of the radars operating modes.
This milestone marks the latest step towards qualifying the RBE2 AESA radars this year in readiness for delivery of the first two units to Dassault Aviation during the first quarter of 2010. The radars will be installed on the aircraft in 2011 for delivery to the French Air Force early in 2012.(same time when MMRCA should be inducted)
The successful tests are the latest in a long line of key milestones. Thales began developing an AESA radar demonstrator in the 1990s and conducted exploratory tests at the flight test centre in 2002 and 2003 to refine the concept. In 2004, the French defence procurement agency DGA backed the project with a contract to develop a prototype of an operational active-module radar.
At the end of 2006, Thales completed its first active phased array, comprising some 1,000 gallium-arsenide T/R modules manufactured by European firm United Monolithic Semiconductors (UMS).
The active phased array, which replaces the passive array in the RBE2 currently operating on the Rafale, offers many advantages:
range extended by over 50% for future compatibility with new weapon systems like Meteor;
higher module reliability for reduced cost of ownership (no array overhaul required for 10 years)
waveform agility for high-resolution synthetic aperture (SAR) imagery in air-to-ground mode and better resistance to jamming.
Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, Senior Vice President in charge of Thaless Aerospace Solutions for Governments Sector, commented on the achievement of this new milestone: The success of this latest series of tests on the RBE2 AESA radar consolidates Thaless European leadership position. Moreover, it will help to affirm the Rafales technological superiority as the omnirole aircraft performs flight demonstrations for potential export customers, confirming its excellent performance as it has recently in Switzerland and the United Arab Emirates.
Thales is a leading international electronics and systems group, addressing Defence, Aerospace and Security markets worldwide. The Groups civil and military businesses develop in parallel and share a common base of technologies to serve a single objective: the security of people, property and nations.
Thaless leading-edge technology is supported by 22,500 R&D engineers who offer a capability unmatched in Europe to develop and deploy field-proven mission-critical information systems. The Group builds its growth on its unique multi-domestic strategy based on trusted partnerships with national customers and market players, while leveraging its global expertise to support local technology and industrial development. Thales employs 68,000 people in 50 countries with 2008 revenues of EUR 12.7 billion
Tejas-MkII
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2009
- Messages
- 410
- Reaction score
- 0
Last edited:
sancho
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2009
- Messages
- 13,011
- Reaction score
- 27
- Country
- Location
This article of the Brazilian fighter competition could be a hint where the MMRCA competition should go to. Not only because Rafale could win there, but the aims and requirements they have should be important for us too:
France 24 | France seen leading race to equip Brazil air force | France 24
So from MMRCA point of view:
How much and and what kind of ToT India will get?
Rafale - full ToT of new techs like RBE 2 AA radar, M88 engine, hopefully Spectra EWS and all techs could be useful for LCA too
EF - not finalised so far, but most likely of EJ 200 engine and avionics that could be produced in India for all EFs. These could be useful for LCA too
Mig 35 - full ToT is offered, but only Zhuk AE radar is a real new tech for IAF and can be shared with LCA
F18SH - limited, most likely engine techs that could be useful for LCA too
Gripen NG - very limited ToT because all important parts are co-developments which needs approval of other countries, so not much that can be shared with LCA.
F16IN - maybe nothing useful, because the new techs in it, like radar and avionics comes from F35 and they won't share them with us. So it most likely will be ToT of the GE F110-132 engine, that can't be used in LCA!
What will be the benefit for our industry?
Our industry will benefit the most, if they get techs that are new and helps to improve their capabilities, also co-developments and co-production will be benefits too.
So the most benefit should come through Rafales full ToT and EF's partnership in production offer, both could lead to further co-developments.
What are India's long-term geo-political goals?
The same that Brazil has I would say,
We already have a deal with France. Should we reinforce it?
We already had Mirage 2k and Jags for years, bought 6 new subs and new nuclear power plants. France was a reliable partner in the past and in sanction time, also they can offer nearly any arm that Russia can offer (tanks, fighters, subs, ships, helicopters...), so they would be a perfect stratigic partner for India besides Russia!
If we negotiate with the US, will we be forced to toe the line on its policies?
Without a doubt, there are enough examples for it and it is obvious that they want us as a counterweight against China. A relationship to US is not wrong, but only for not so important arms and in smaller numbers at the moment. To remain independent and non aligned should be an important issue for India!
Are there advantages to negotiating with the Swedes?
Not really, Sweden is too small and is highly dependent on other countries in developments of arms, also they don't have the political power that would be an advantage for India.
The final decision in Brazil will be taken in oct, it will be interesting to see how it will end and what the final reasons was. Because these could be good reasons for India too.
France 24 | France seen leading race to equip Brazil air force | France 24
So from MMRCA point of view:
How much and and what kind of ToT India will get?
Rafale - full ToT of new techs like RBE 2 AA radar, M88 engine, hopefully Spectra EWS and all techs could be useful for LCA too
EF - not finalised so far, but most likely of EJ 200 engine and avionics that could be produced in India for all EFs. These could be useful for LCA too
Mig 35 - full ToT is offered, but only Zhuk AE radar is a real new tech for IAF and can be shared with LCA
F18SH - limited, most likely engine techs that could be useful for LCA too
Gripen NG - very limited ToT because all important parts are co-developments which needs approval of other countries, so not much that can be shared with LCA.
F16IN - maybe nothing useful, because the new techs in it, like radar and avionics comes from F35 and they won't share them with us. So it most likely will be ToT of the GE F110-132 engine, that can't be used in LCA!
What will be the benefit for our industry?
Our industry will benefit the most, if they get techs that are new and helps to improve their capabilities, also co-developments and co-production will be benefits too.
So the most benefit should come through Rafales full ToT and EF's partnership in production offer, both could lead to further co-developments.
What are India's long-term geo-political goals?
The same that Brazil has I would say,
We already have a deal with France. Should we reinforce it?
We already had Mirage 2k and Jags for years, bought 6 new subs and new nuclear power plants. France was a reliable partner in the past and in sanction time, also they can offer nearly any arm that Russia can offer (tanks, fighters, subs, ships, helicopters...), so they would be a perfect stratigic partner for India besides Russia!
If we negotiate with the US, will we be forced to toe the line on its policies?
Without a doubt, there are enough examples for it and it is obvious that they want us as a counterweight against China. A relationship to US is not wrong, but only for not so important arms and in smaller numbers at the moment. To remain independent and non aligned should be an important issue for India!
Are there advantages to negotiating with the Swedes?
Not really, Sweden is too small and is highly dependent on other countries in developments of arms, also they don't have the political power that would be an advantage for India.
The final decision in Brazil will be taken in oct, it will be interesting to see how it will end and what the final reasons was. Because these could be good reasons for India too.
- Status
Similar threads
- Article
