Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Gabbar]

LINK: AESA TESTED ON RAFAEL!!!

 

[sancho]

LINK: AESA TESTED ON RAFAEL!!!

Link doesn't work.

 

[sms]

Another denial from Dassault ... who knows what's cooking?

Dassault denies India ruled out Rafale for fighter contract

BRUSSELS, April 24 (UPI) -- Dassault denies India ruled out Rafale for fighter contract

French company Dassault has denied reports that it has been eliminated from the international race to sell 126 new combat aircraft to India.

The long-drawn-out competition has been going on for nearly two years, and Russia's Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-35MKI remains the favorite to win it. The Indian air force has primarily relied upon Soviet or Russian combat aircraft for nearly 40 years. By contrast, France has failed in almost all of its efforts over the past 10 years to land significant export contracts for its Rafale fighter jet.

India has specified that it requires a Medium-Range Multi-Role Combat Aircraft weighing 14 to 30 tons that can carry out both air-defense and air-to-surface missions. The first 18 aircraft should be ready for use while the next 108 will be built by Hindustan Aeronautics as a result of a technology transfer.

Defense News reported last week that the Rafale was believed to have been eliminated from the race by Indian defense officials. Dassault denied the claims, but Defense News said Dassault had failed to disclose fully whether the Rafale would meet the Indian air force's technical requirements.

Dassault said it had not been informed yet by the Indian government on the outcome of the competition. However, senior Indian military officials have told the press that they had dropped the Rafael from consideration.

The Indian air force is still considering the Eurofighter Typhoon, which is built by the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Co., the Gripen, which is built by Saab of Sweden, the MiG-35 and Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin's F-16 Fighting Falcon from the United States.

In the next round of the competition, the jets will be tested in flight trials over the next two months, after which their weapons will be tested. Finally, the Indian government will evaluate the commercial bids and make its decision.

 

[Super Falcon]

what ever F 18 going to win the contract for sure

 

[sms]

what ever F 18 going to win the contract for sure

What's the rational behind your statement? Pls. elaborate

 

[TOPGUN]

So was wondering from members who do u think is gona win the place for IAF needs?

 

[MZUBAIR]

So was wondering from members who do u think is gona win the place for IAF needs?

Indian MRCA is on going competition of 126 Multirole Combat Aircraft.
Competitors are:-
1) Rafale.
2) Typhoon
3) F16 C/D
4) F/A -18EF
5) Jas 39 Gripen
6) Mig-35.

Now lets talk one by one
1) Rafale.
There are rumours that India will not go for Rafale. Because of its high selling cost and high manintenance cost. So in my view India will never go for it.
Unit cost for Rafale is US$90 to US$95 million

2) Typhoon
It is very strong Competitor and might win but it has fewer chances then Mig-35.

3) F16 C/D
India will never go for it coz there are 2 reasons.
First Pakistan has also F16's and second Indians are not familiar with US fighter plane structures.
I think buying F16 C/D would not be justifiable for India.
I feel they will not consider it to much.

4) F/A -18EF
These are more special for Naval Air support. Surely india never wants this for MRCA.

5) Jas 39 Gripen
Its good plane but again rumours are their that Saab is tranfaring technology to support LCA.

6) Mig-35.
I think its the most strongest competitor in the game. India knows very much about Russian technology and they will surely would go for it. I have very hard feelings that India will take Mig35

Basically India had made this deal more political, which will surely create problems for India in the end when they will finalise any one of the above deal the other will surely get angry. India also tried to block Pakistan in many miltary deals using MRCA politics.
When they will sign with one of them, then others options will be available for Pakistan. l hope till then Pakistan will improve their economy.

May be this will open the doars of Rafale avionics for JF-17. Which I think Pakistan is doing. Besides that Pakistan might buy few Mirage 2k-5 from UAE with the help of France. coz India will never go for old fleats as PAF did in past for Mirage 3/5

I think PAF is not intrested in any one of these Rafale,Typhoon, F16 C/D (already have, may be buy few old one's and upgrade (MLU) them as they did with mirage with ROSE program), F/A -18EF, Jas 39
Gripen, Mig-35.

I feel PAF will look to imrpove JF-17 with western avionics and in future might purchase Chinees J-XX

 

[LCA]

^^^^^^

Can u provide the link about F-16 that IAF going for C/D version because they talk about E/F version for MMRCA .

And also some information about J-XX

and the no. of sq. of JF inducted in PAF, which they are going to upgrade with French Electronics.

 

[sancho]

1) Rafale.
There are rumours that India will not go for Rafale. Because of its high selling cost and high manintenance cost. So in my view India will never go for it.
Unit cost for Rafale is US$90 to US$95 million

That's not quiet correct, the Rafale could be the cheapest in maintenance of the double engine fighters. The unit cost offered for Saudi was around €63 mil, that's $83 mil now and we want nearly double as much aircrafts, so I guess it must be $80 mil maximum.
If you compare just all the MRCA against each other, Rafale offers the most for IAF(AESA, good a2a and a2g capabilities, french avionics a.s.o).
The problem I see at the moment is, that it can use mostly french weapons, which are good but pretty expensive. Secondly it would offer less commonality to other IAF fighters. EF and F18SH for example offers there engine and maybe also AESA radars for LCA, Rafale could only offer the radar, cause the engine is not good enough.
Also imo a Rafale would compete with the roles of a possible MCA, cause both are, or should be mainly for BVR combats and precision strikes. The difference will only be the stealth capabilities of MCA, which should be better to the low RCS of Rafale, but size, weapons and even radar and engine could be the same.
If you have Rafale, Mki and will get FGFA, all roles should be filled and MCA would only make sense as a replacement of Mki, or Rafale, so I doubt that we get both.

Basically India had made this deal more political, which will surely create problems for India in the end when they will finalise any one of the above deal the other will surely get angry. India also tried to block Pakistan in many miltary deals using MRCA politics.
When they will sign with one of them, then others options will be available for Pakistan. l hope till then Pakistan will improve their economy.

If you mean Russia with the angry other side I can't agree, cause besides this deal we have more than enough deals going on with them (80 Mi 17 helicopter, IL 76 for AWECS, Mig 29 K and Gorshkov, Pak Fa coop, MTA coop, BrahMos coop...). Even if we go for US fighters this time, everybody knows that the close relationship between India and Russia won't change.
And I doubt that there are many options for PAF in the MRCA, cause some of them are too expensive (Rafale, EF), Mig might be blocked politically, you already have F16, Gripen NG is the same size and would compete J10 also. The only fighter that is left would be F18 SH which would be a benefit for PAF, but I wonder if US offer it to you and if you want to take the risk with US fighters again?
Much more realistic is the purchase of engine, radar, or avionics for JF 17 and J10 from one of the MRCA fighters, most likely from F16 IN, Gripen NG, or maybe Rafale. That is something that IAF can't control even if we would buy one of these fighter, so I don't think they bother too much what PAF could get.

 

[TOPGUN]

Boss we have no need for the f-18's nor will the US ever offer them to us!!

 

[MZUBAIR]

^^^^^^

Can u provide the link about F-16 that IAF going for C/D version because they talk about E/F version for MMRCA .

Link for you

And also some information about J-XX

sino defence.com jxx

and the no. of sq. of JF inducted in PAF, which they are going to upgrade with French Electronics.

he first ever Fighter Squadron of JF-17 Thunder aircraft will be raised and stationed at Pakistan Air Force Base, Peshawar

Peshawar Base to station JF-17 Thunder Aircraft Squadron: Pak Air Chief

 

[MZUBAIR]

That's not quiet correct, the Rafale could be the cheapest in maintenance of the double engine fighters. The unit cost offered for Saudi was around €63 mil, that's $83 mil now and we want nearly double as much aircrafts, so I guess it must be $80 mil maximum.

That was in 2008 deal. But still $80 mil is more ....even it would not be the price of F-35

Also imo a Rafale would compete with the roles of a possible MCA, cause both are, or should be mainly for BVR combats and precision strikes. The difference will only be the stealth capabilities of MCA, which should be better to the low RCS of Rafale, but size, weapons and even radar and engine could be the same.

First buy MRCA then think about MCA

And I doubt that there are many options for PAF in the MRCA, cause some of them are too expensive (Rafale, EF), Mig might be blocked politically, you already have F16, Gripen NG is the same size and would compete J10 also. The only fighter that is left would be F18 SH which would be a benefit for PAF, but I wonder if US offer it to you and if you want to take the risk with US fighters again?

Agree but PAF will not go for F18 SH

Much more realistic is the purchase of engine, radar, or avionics for JF 17 and J10 from one of the MRCA fighters, most likely from F16 IN, Gripen NG, or maybe Rafale.

I think Rafale avionics coz I read in a news few months ago that PAF will consider western avionics for JF-17 and most likely PAF will for french.

 

[sancho]

Link for you

From point 3.3 Lockheed Martin F-16IN in that link:

India initially sent the RFI for a F-16C/D Block 52+ configuration aircraft. On January 17, 2008, Lockheed Martin offered a customized version of the F-16, the F-16IN for the Indian MMRCA contract.[21] The F-16IN, which is similar to the F-16 Block 60, will be a 4.5 generation aircraft. Lockheed Martin has stated that it will be the most advanced F-16 variant developed.

So now a upg F16 E/F block 60 is offered for MMRCA

That was in 2008 deal. But still $80 mil is more ....even it would not be the price of F-35

The problem is the high Euro compared to the low Dollar, that makes it so hard to export Rafale, EF and even Gripen. Sure $80, or $83 mil (systemprice with support, training, spares) comes close to F35 costs, but it is not on offer for IAF, EF is still more expensive and even Gripen NG is offered for Dutch AF with a systemprice of $75 mil.

http://www.jsfnieuws.nl/wp-content/Saab_OfferGripenNG_170409.pdf

Btw, can you confirm these facts of the F16 block 52 that PAF want to buy? $3 bil for 36 makes also a systemprice of $83 mil, for sure because of the low numbers, but still pretty expensive.

Pakistan F-16 - Defesa@Net

But back to MMRCA, the point to me is what IAF really gets for their money. Rafale is costly but offers full ToT, source codes, no restrictions..., many things that the much cheaper US fighters can't offer. The most expensive EF offers a full partnership, something that US never would offer and even if you are a small partner (like GB at F35) you have to take what they give you. That's why I would prefer a european winner, even if we pay more we get more in return. Mig 35 could be the cheapest, but offer pretty much the same stuff we already have. So a high unit cost alone can't be the reason against one of these aircrafts.

 

[LCA]

@ muzabir

As u can see muzabir F-16 offer to india is not C/D but the E/F version.

And the link provided by u for J-XX said that very little information given about this project so it only like a illusion untill we get a confirmation from chinese gov,officialy.

and the link for JF clearly said that untill no operational sq. inducted in the PAF it will only at the end of 2009.

so how can u upgrade a fighter without even inducting???

First buy MRCA then think about MCA

i think u not properly understand sanch's post.
he only tried to said that if MCA got delayed then more no. of MMRCA can be inducted into the IAF.And for this he comparing MCA with Rafale.

And as far as your thinking about rafale avionics for JF , u need to induct the fighter first and build the Infra for maintenance,training,etc.

P.S : Article for J-XX said it is 4 gen aircraft, so i doubt its credibility.

 

[sancho]

First buy MRCA then think about MCA

i think u not properly understand sanch's post.
he only tried to said that if MCA got delayed then more no. of MMRCA can be inducted into the IAF.And for this he comparing MCA with Rafale.

Actually what I meant was, that we could get the first Rafale around 2013 and MCA possibly only 10 years later. That means both would serve at least 15 years alongside eachother in IAF, but pretty much for the same roles. Note sure if the huge amount of money that we have to spend for both would be worth and necassary. That's why I think it could be a reason against Rafale and maybe F18 SH to win MRCA.