Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[MZUBAIR]

From point 3.3 Lockheed Martin F-16IN in that link:

So now a upg F16 E/F block 60 is offered for MMRCA

The problem is the high Euro compared to the low Dollar, that makes it so hard to export Rafale, EF and even Gripen. Sure $80, or $83 mil (systemprice with support, training, spares) comes close to F35 costs, but it is not on offer for IAF, EF is still more expensive and even Gripen NG is offered for Dutch AF with a systemprice of $75 mil.

http://www.jsfnieuws.nl/wp-content/Saab_OfferGripenNG_170409.pdf

Btw, can you confirm these facts of the F16 block 52 that PAF want to buy? $3 bil for 36 makes also a systemprice of $83 mil, for sure because of the low numbers, but still pretty expensive.

Pakistan F-16 - Defesa@Net

But back to MMRCA, the point to me is what IAF really gets for their money. Rafale is costly but offers full ToT, source codes, no restrictions..., many things that the much cheaper US fighters can't offer. The most expensive EF offers a full partnership, something that US never would offer and even if you are a small partner (like GB at F35) you have to take what they give you. That's why I would prefer a european winner, even if we pay more we get more in return. Mig 35 could be the cheapest, but offer pretty much the same stuff we already have. So a high unit cost alone can't be the reason against one of these aircrafts.

I dont want to convience u
Best of luck!!!..............Lets see which will u get n in which form....but mar my words that India will go for Mig 35

 

[maverick2009]

MZUBAIR.

The next Russian Fighter to enter IAF will be the indo russian PAK FA 5th generation fighter around 2020 entry service..

THE MMRCA contest is already a done deal behind closed doors. Thats why RAFALE new they have lost aleady.

The day india signed the nuclear deal the F18SH won the contract thats already decided by India & usa govts.

MIG35 is the wom competitor all pakistanis hope IAF signs. THEY are having nitem,ares about IAF equipped with F18 super hornets with AESA radar and Amraam d5 BVRs.

I dont blame them either.

its bad enuf with 230 su30mki add 126 Super Hornets " its a nitemare" scenario for any adversary

 

[LCA]

Apart from there is another contract of buying about 450 AESA radar..

Here are some details from force mag..

A fierce competition is now underway for supplying up to 450 active phased-array radars (AESA) for the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) future combat aircraft acquisitions, with the principal contenders hailing from the US (Northrop Grumman and Raytheon), Europe (EADS Defence Electronics, THALES and SELEX Galileo), Scandinavia (Ericsson Microwave), Israel (Israel Aerospace Industries), and Russia (Phazotron JSC and Tikhomirov NIIP).

Unlike a conventional mechanically steered-array (MSA) radar, the antenna array of T/R modules is fixed, with no moving parts. The radar can steer its agile beams electronically — at nearly the speed of light — and redirect them instantaneously from one target to another. In MSA radars, a circular or elliptical antenna plate in the nose of the aircraft is moved rapidly using a gimbal system with three or four drive motors to scan an area of airspace or on the ground, a single flashlight-like beam at a time. AESA radars on the other hand can track significantly more targets and can operate in multiple modes simultaneously, such as air-to-air search (in low-, medium-, and high-PRFs) and digital ground mapping. The AESA also automatically establishes tracking files for each detected target (more than 24), thereby reducing pilot workload. With interleaved air-to-air and air-to-surface cockpit displays, the aircrew will thus be able to maintain situational awareness while executing air-to-surface missions. AESA radars also offer better air-to-ground resolution (three times higher) than MSA radars, particularly using their synthetic aperture radar (SAR) mode.

The RBE-2 along with the OSF infra-red search-and-track system is being proposed for installation on board 90 of the IAF’s 230 Su-30MKIs on order.


The Caesar’s tracking range is well beyond 200km against combat aircraft-sized targets, with a range of more than 300km against large targets like transports or aerial refueling tankers. The Caesar’s antenna, using a liquid cooling system, comprises 1,500 Gallium-Arsenide T/R modules.

ISRAEL:The X-band EL/M-2052’s array comprises ‘bricks’ of 24 T/R modules, making it easy to assemble the AESA in different configurations to match the size and shape of an existing fighter nose, up to 1,290 modules. Smaller, lower-module-count versions can be air-cooled, reducing weight and making integration simpler.

Tikhomirov NIIP, on the other hand, is busy developing its X-band AESA radar for fitment on to both the Su-35BM and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft that will be co-developed by Russia’s United Aircraft Corp and India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). Thus far, three prototype AESAs have been built and are now undergoing laboratory tests, with the first functional unit due to enter the flight-test phase in 2010, and the series-produced radars entering service by 2015. The AESA’s front-end antenna array will also be offered for integration with the existing NO-11M ‘Bars’ PESA radars by 2014. Yet another AESA variant being designed by Tikhomirov NIIP is called the ‘smart skin’ in which the T/R modules can be located anywhere on board the aircraft to generate the relevant radiation fields required for almost 360-degree airspace surveillance coverage.

Also lot of information given about CAESAR(CAPTOR-E),RBE-2,Zhuk-AE,SAAB Aesa and also why aesa radar is so much potent ?

It's a worth to read .

first link is from force mag.

sorry not the complete one.

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

and second is from a forum, full aricle,post no.197 and 198

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1402082

It may signify that IAF can have more than one AESA technologies

 

[Screaming Skull]

Boeing upbeat on prospects for F/A-18 fighter sales | Industries | Industrials, Materials & Utilities | Reuters

 

[MZUBAIR]

MZUBAIR.

The next Russian Fighter to enter IAF will be the indo russian PAK FA 5th generation fighter around 2020 entry service..

THE MMRCA contest is already a done deal behind closed doors. Thats why RAFALE new they have lost aleady.

The day india signed the nuclear deal the F18SH won the contract thats already decided by India & usa govts.

MIG35 is the wom competitor all pakistanis hope IAF signs. THEY are having nitem,ares about IAF equipped with F18 super hornets with AESA radar and Amraam d5 BVRs.

I dont blame them either.

its bad enuf with 230 su30mki add 126 Super Hornets " its a nitemare" scenario for any adversary

Dude, Its good if they go for F18SH, atleast they might be able to learn American technology.

But I m still sure that Mig 35 will be their choice as they are familiar with Russian technology. Behind doors stories are roumours.

Only Time will tell, wait for couple of months and things will be clear.
As for as your this statement " MIG35 is the wom competitor all pakistanis hope IAF signs". Pakistan is not thinking like that. We are only thinking wt will they chose so we can make a counter induction.
At the moment (till 2010) 100+ JF-17, 60+ F-16, 36 J-10B are enough to counter 200 + Su 30 Mki.

At the moment we are developing 50 JF-17 with block A,
Block A can compete with Su-30.
Radar Used
KLJ-10:
There is not much known about this Chinese Radar, it is a variant of radar used on J-10. It has met PAF's requirements and therefore has been chosen for initial batch. One can get some idea of its capability by looking at other Radars, whose Manufacturers were/are competing for JF-17/FC-1 Radar Contract.
Engine
RD-93 Turbofan
It is a variant of Klimov RD-33 Turbofan Engine used in MIG-29 Fulcrum.

Still there is more then any one can imagine in a light jet.

Next year next 50 JF-17 Block B will be real challangers for Su30Mki.

Radar
Griffo S7:
Range is about 100KM, Simultaneous engagement of atleast 2 targets. Like Su 30 Mki N011M Bars (Panther) radar which can track 15 air targets and engage the 4 most dangerous simultaneously
New engine
most likely the Chinese WS-13 TianShan, although the PAF is considering fitting European powerplants such as the French Snecma M88 used in Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft.


There are more then that, search for wekipedia and official JF-17 website.
Official JF-17 website

Remember PAF knows IAF capabilities and always induct counter fleet.

 

[tutu]

it will take another 1n1/2 years for IAF to decide on MMRCA.........

and it will be TYPOON for sure..............

by that time as IAF decide on typoon.........US will came up and say F-35 for you....

 

[sancho]

At the moment (till 2010) 100+ JF-17, 60+ F-16, 36 J-10B are enough to counter 200 + Su 30 Mki.

There is an article on the PAK aviation forum that says PAF has at the moment 8 JF 17, so way there can't be 100 by 2010, also we might have around 100 - 120 Mki till 2010.

At the moment we are developing 50 JF-17 with block A,
Block A can compete with Su-30.

There is also JF 17 vs Mki thread in the Pak aviation forum that shows quiet well that the Mki is superior in nearly every way. Better discuss it there and not on this thread.

 

[MZUBAIR]

There is an article on the PAK aviation forum that says PAF has at the moment 8 JF 17, so way there can't be 100 by 2010, also we might have around 100 - 120 Mki till 2010.

PAF have 8 + at the moment, that I can asure you. Web sites and threads giving reference of Oct 2008. All the information is not available on Internet.

Pakistan is working on a plan and according to the plan heavy serial production have been in operation since Feb 09 and by Oct 09 we will prepare 1st Peshawar Sqd with Thunder bird.
Pakistan will produce atleast 50 birds this year which will take up to total 50+.
Next year target with Block B would be achieved easily when they have strong hand this year.

There is also JF 17 vs Mki thread in the Pak aviation forum that shows quiet well that the Mki is superior in nearly every way. Better discuss it there and not on this thread.

Yes there is a thread of JF 17 vs Mki, but Indian friends dont want to hear that JF-17 can compete Mki. Remember my Indian friend never under estimated ur enemy. Pakistan always look to counter India.So atleast understand this thing that we are working only to counter india. If u think that Jf-17 is not of that worth then y paksitan is wasting their money and time on the project. So think wts in reality, dont go only web links....and remember every thing is not available on Internet...its just a partial info or may be not a single info.

We will never let u go up.

 

[MZUBAIR]

it will take another 1n1/2 years for IAF to decide on MMRCA.........

and it will be TYPOON for sure..............

by that time as IAF decide on typoon.........US will came up and say F-35 for you....

First time, I heard abt MRCA in 2004, still its not finalised as its in the process. India will soon finalise the MRCA jet then they will negotiate with the country and it will take 6 to 10 months for signed confirm deal.

Dont forget If India go for USA brids then there will be a pass bill from congress that surely review the deal.

Now I heard that India is also looking for MMRCA and I believe that It will take India 4 to 5 years to descide the jet. Its not a child game to descide billion $s deal in few months or one year so dont say immature words that India will sign withn 1 nad half year. At the moment India might be only thinking abt MRCA.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Israel want to participate in MMRCA with their F-16I " sufa" ...the varient that US sold to Israel.......but US supposed to put an objection on it..........might be IAF will now buy it directly from US and later Israeli avionice and other compoents will be integrated on it.....

Getting birds from Israel would be batter for India then from USA. USA traps as they do with others.

 

[LCA]

We will never let u go up.

Sorry to say bro...

but u sound like a crab in a tin who niether want to go outside of the tin nor want other to go outside of tin.

why don't u say that we will increase our line and make larger than your line....(from a old story)

don't take this as a offense.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Sorry to say bro...

but u sound like a crab in a tin who niether want to go outside of the tin nor want other to go outside of tin.

why don't u say that we will increase our line and make larger than your line....(from a old story)

don't take this as a offense.

No, I m not taking it in offence. I dont like or listen myths, stories, philosophy as ur trying to be with ur tin and crab.

I like reality.

I said above that no body is sleeping. We know how to defend our country and what is important for us thats why dont underestimate JF-17 it can compete Su-30 MKI and others even with those in MRCA list.

Any how we are not in tin nither we are stopping any one. If any one failed in any project then dont blame on other countries.

As far the topic is Indian MRCA deal and in my opinion Inida will go for Mig-35 coz India is familiar with Russian technology.
Raffel is out of the proposal as found from different resources.
Its not easy for India to get hold on American technology.
So, I think India will go for Mig-35.
Time will tell this.

But any how this is now a political issue for India to buy any jet lets wait and see.

 

[Jako]

Mzubair,the only reason why pak opted jf17 is lack of funds........otherwise dassault rafale would have been an perfect counter for the mki......and you thought pak chose the perfect machine.......lolz

 

[old monk]

^^^ true.. not even china is using jf-17 as their main fighter but su-mkks and other russian fighters.

 

[LCA]

No, I m not taking it in offence. I dont like or listen myths, stories, philosophy as ur trying to be with ur tin and crab.

I like reality.

I said above that no body is sleeping. We know how to defend our country and what is important for us thats why dont underestimate JF-17 it can compete Su-30 MKI and others even with those in MRCA list.

Any how we are not in tin nither we are stopping any one. If any one failed in any project then dont blame on other countries.

As far the topic is Indian MRCA deal and in my opinion India will go for Mig-35 coz India is familiar with Russian technology.
Raffel is out of the proposal as found from different resources.
Its not easy for India to get hold on American technology.
So, I think India will go for Mig-35.
Time will tell this.

But any how this is now a political issue for India to buy any jet lets wait and see.

Rafale is not out of the race ,reconfirm ur sources.

As far as politics is concern now india political parties busy with their own politics in general elaction

P.S.: we are not underestimating JF but sorry to say it have no chance against MKI.