Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Abingdonboy]

Talks over £7.2billion BAE deal could boost Lancashire workers (From Lancashire Telegraph)

The IAF/MoD/GoI are playingthis deal very craftily, they are trying to extract every advantage both sides will offerto "sweeten" the deal. They have both sides practically bending over backwards for this deal which both sides very much need/want. I expect there has been much along these lines that has not been publicised like avionics UPG, HMDS, delivery schedule, Marinised panes (EFT) so India gets the best offering.


Well played!! Once this deal is signed we will see just how "sweet" the deal is. And thats before you even talk about offsets!!

 

[sancho]

The IAF/MoD/GoI are playingthis deal very craftily, they are trying to extract every advantage both sides will offerto "sweeten" the deal. They have both sides practically bending over backwards for this deal which both sides very much need/want. I expect there has been much along these lines that has not been publicised like avionics UPG, HMDS, delivery schedule, Marinised panes (EFT) so India gets the best offering.


Well played!! Once this deal is signed we will see just how "sweet" the deal is. And thats before you even talk about offsets!!

No doubt on that, all the delays and the switch to M - MRCA was a good decision in terms of technical and industrial benefits, especially since those 2 were shortlisted that provides us the most in this field. But I still think they are basically pushing the French in the right direction, the rumors that the Rafale could be out was well placed and got much attention in the media and all forums and that lead to corrections of the French in their initial offer. All this without a single official statement, that there could be any problem with the Rafale! MoD is defenitelly playing it's card right so far, but I'm sure they would have liked to see the Super Hornet beeing shortlisted as well, even if the aim was just to push the Europeans once more.

 

[DacterSaab]

Talks over £7.2billion BAE deal could boost Lancashire workers (From Lancashire Telegraph)

There's a very interesting first comment on this page could some1 on our forums elaborate plz.

 

[DacterSaab]

but I'm sure they would have liked to see the Super Hornet beeing shortlisted as well, even if the aim was just to push the Europeans once more.

totally agree that a 3rd finalist would have been a very good move but I think shortlisting MiG-35 instead of super hornet would have been a much better move as a Russian finalist would have appeared more threatening to Europeans than American binding contracts which the whole world knows that Indians don't like the whole world except Americans due to lack of sufficient intelligence.

 

[kingdurgaking]

If F-18 had been shortlisted it would bag the deal with ease.. because it is cheaper.. and 50% offset they will meet with ease... they would meet the thin line unlike Rafale and EFT who are giving everything to bag the deal... If Mig-35 would have been shortlisted .. surely LM and Boeing would have filed a lawsuit... they could have easily proved it is not worth to there machines because it is not ready or nothing is there to prove it is Mig-35

 

[DacterSaab]

If F-18 had been shortlisted it would bag the deal with ease.. because it is cheaper.. and 50% offset they will meet with ease... they would meet the thin line unlike Rafale and EFT who are giving everything to bag the deal... If Mig-35 would have been shortlisted .. surely LM and Boeing would have filed a lawsuit... they could have easily proved it is not worth to there machines because it is not ready or nothing is there to prove it is Mig-35

IAF is the customer the MiG-35 would be unmatchable in terms of fleet commonality, cost-efficiency (both in terms of being the cheapest to procure and infrastructure/logistic modifications) and could be short-listed purely on those very grounds to pressurize the Europeans the LM and Boeing would **** in their pants b4 filing a law suit to beat these requirements. going by your logic the EFT manufacturers can file a suit if Dassault bags their orders as EFT is said to be the most advanced jet in the whole lot but take a look at various shortlists around the world the customer has the right to choose which aircraft it wants to purchase and it doesn't matter if ur aircraft is the best or most advanced your law-suit ain't worth **** if i don't feel it suits me and my requirements. the f-18 would have never won the MMRCA cause the US had made it clear that there would be restrictions and the 4th largest air force in world cannot afford restrictions on middle 1/3rd of it's fleet also they could not offer matchable TOT as compared to Europeans so shortlisted hornet would be a giveaway as the Europeans would realize that it has been shortlisted only to pressurize them and that even the IAF won't purchase it. On the other hand a MiG finalist would really make the Europeans bend hands over heels cause they'd feel that if they miss out anywhere the MiG will surely bag the contract.

 

[kingdurgaking]

IAF is the customer the MiG-35 would be unmatchable in terms of fleet commonality, cost-efficiency (both in terms of being the cheapest to procure and infrastructure/logistic modifications) and could be short-listed purely on those very grounds to pressurize the Europeans the LM and Boeing would **** in their pants b4 filing a law suit to beat these requirements. going by your logic the EFT manufacturers can file a suit if Dassault bags their orders as EFT is said to be the most advanced jet in the whole lot but take a look at various shortlists around the world the customer has the right to choose which aircraft it wants to purchase and it doesn't matter if ur aircraft is the best or most advanced your law-suit ain't worth **** if i don't feel it suits me and my requirements. the f-18 would have never won the MMRCA cause the US had made it clear that there would be restrictions and the 4th largest air force in world cannot afford restrictions on middle 1/3rd of it's fleet also they could not offer matchable TOT as compared to Europeans so shortlisted hornet would be a giveaway as the Europeans would realize that it has been shortlisted only to pressurize them and that even the IAF won't purchase it. On the other hand a MiG finalist would really make the Europeans bend hands over heels cause they'd feel that if they miss out anywhere the MiG will surely bag the contract.

The very base which you have got i wrong is Mig-35 is not developed .. it is just a modification on Mig-29.. SAAB got rejected because it couldnt prove that AESA exist.. though it started IAF is not convinced.. so going by this logic if you say Mig-35 exist other vendors will surely question the credibility of the selection.. there is no Mig-35 but Mig-29 modified.. and we don't want such an aircraft in the fleet... Your argument on fleet commonality and cost efficient.... Mig-35 is not cost efficient.. there is a maintenance cost which is very high and commonality yes... but not that great deal .... if commonality is the criteria the RFI will be sent only to France and Russia.. but clearly that is not the criteria ...

Your logic if Dassault is selected , EFT will file the law suit.. the point is both of them qualified to the negotiation round.. and whoever gives the L1 will get the deal.. because IAF is not requesting the best of the best.. but a fighter that qualifies its requirement which is clear both of them qualified... thats why EFT who have higher cost are trying to compensate on offset clause while Dassault is trying to match the requirement...

 

[DacterSaab]

my friend this is a purchase not a competition it is the customer who decides what it wants and justifies them accordingly are you telling me that if 'the Indian Air Force traditionally known to have flown almost every MiG since 3rd gen jets and still leaning most heavily towards Russian hardware claimed that Russian MiG was most suitable for it anybody in the world would disagree to it? i don't think so.

what you say about the RFI is true if that is the solitary criteria in any other condition RFI may be issued to any1 who we think may be interested remember RFI was only sent to 4 bidders 2 others joined later on because they wanted to sell and have you ever gone to a market every seller will want to sell you buddy if they think your pockets are deep enough but in the end its you who decides what you want from whom and no1 can challenge this criteria.

 

[DacterSaab]

remember boeing stating that we accepted Europeans could deliver AESA but did not accept Americans could deliver better engine thats what happened at the debrief the boeing ppl were told that "hey man shut up 1st we didn't send you RFI 2nd you dont offer 100% TOT 3rd your fighters are old designs 4th we won't accept restrictions 5th your not buying them yourselves. so stop being the cry baby if we thought you could win we'd send you RFI now go and concentrate on giving us what we need from you and in the future only offer us that which is best for your own forces then we'd probably consider bye."
and as for Lockheed Martin "oh we'd buy your planes as soon as you take back all the f-16s your giving to Pak and erase the memories of every1 in pak who has ever had any significant experience with an f-16 and apart from the 1st point to boeing all others apply to you too mister so don't think ur better and you think your a smart mouth offering us f-35 we'd take it brother but first give us a significant no. of f-35 for free just like you gift our dear loving neighbours now get out and stop whining"

 

[kingdurgaking]

my friend this is a purchase not a competition it is the customer who decides what it wants and justifies them accordingly are you telling me that if 'the Indian Air Force traditionally known to have flown almost every MiG since 3rd gen jets and still leaning most heavily towards Russian hardware claimed that Russian MiG was most suitable for it anybody in the world would disagree to it? i don't think so.

what you say about the RFI is true if that is the solitary criteria in any other condition RFI may be issued to any1 who we think may be interested remember RFI was only sent to 4 bidders 2 others joined later on because they wanted to sell and have you ever gone to a market every seller will want to sell you buddy if they think your pockets are deep enough but in the end its you who decides what you want from whom and no1 can challenge this criteria.

You are right we are using Mig heavily.. but we were are also operating Mirage and Jaguar.. Infact IAF realized servicing and maintenance of western aircraft are far better.. thats why LCA is designed with western architecture in mind.. even for engine we went to US but not Russia.. excluding Mig in MMRCA more than 70% of the fleet is from Russia.. Russia is one of our trusted partner .. but depending too much on them was suicidal because of the situation that happened in early 90's ... thats why from very first day Mig was not considered by IAF or IAF was not that keen.. but Mig pushed it with a new version and there development will start only after they find some export partner in this case India.. Today Mig-35 dreams have been curtained..

 

[Firemaster]

You are right we are using Mig heavily.. but we were are also operating Mirage and Jaguar.. Infact IAF realized servicing and maintenance of western aircraft are far better.. thats why LCA is designed with western architecture in mind.. even for engine we went to US but not Russia.. excluding Mig in MMRCA more than 70% of the fleet is from Russia.. Russia is one of our trusted partner .. but depending too much on them was suicidal because of the situation that happened in early 90's ... thats why from very first day Mig was not considered by IAF or IAF was not that keen.. but Mig pushed it with a new version and there development will start only after they find some export partner in this case India.. Today Mig-35 dreams have been curtained..

Very well said

 

[DacterSaab]

we were not talking about winner we were talking about how mig as a 3rd finalist would pressurize europeans more than superhornet as a 3rd finalist

 

[sancho]

totally agree that a 3rd finalist would have been a very good move but I think shortlisting MiG-35 instead of super hornet would have been a much better move as a Russian finalist would have appeared more threatening to Europeans than American binding contracts which the whole world knows that Indians don't like the whole world except Americans due to lack of sufficient intelligence.

The Mig wouldn't be a good choice to put pressure on the other, because they are clearly more capable and with much more future potential. But most of all, if one of the major requirements is to improve our industry with as much ToT and offsets as possible, the Russians wouldn't put any pressure on the Europeans at all, because we already get the best that Russia could offer with MKI and FGFA. Western techs and companies are clearly more prefered now and that's why the chance to get US techs (even if it's only limited of critical parts), would have forced the European countries to provide more.
On the other side I am happy, that the choice can be European only now and politics plays just a minor role, which is good for our forces!

 

[DacterSaab]

The Mig wouldn't be a good choice to put pressure on the other, because they are clearly more capable and with much more future potential. But most of all, if one of the major requirements is to improve our industry with as much ToT and offsets as possible, the Russians wouldn't put any pressure on the Europeans at all, because we already get the best that Russia could offer with MKI and FGFA. Western techs and companies are clearly more prefered now and that's why the chance to get US techs (even if it's only limited of critical parts), would have forced the European countries to provide more.
On the other side I am happy, that the choice can be European only now and politics plays just a minor role, which is good for our forces!

hmmmm that's true it's just IAF without MiGs couple of decades ago someone would have called it nuts never the less i'm glad as it's for the best.

 

[sancho]

A FICHTER PILOT'S DREAM; Special Features Refale

Air Marshal (Retd) B.K. Pandey

SP Aviation July 18, 2011...

Full article on page 22 onwards:

SP's Aviation July 2011

Credits to Olybrius from the MP forum


P.S. Also interesting, interviews with IAF Chief Naik (page 19 onwards) and Air Marshal N.A.K. Browne (page 27 onwards)