Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

They were already offering the uprated M88 during last evaluation but no modification in initial offers were allowed............if they win they'll be asked for the uprated version for sure.

Not necessarily, because the Rafale has quiet good thrust, people only think it is low because they only look at the engine specs, without taking the weight of the fighter to account (=> TWR).

I would like to get an opinion from you if Kaveri could be integrated as powerplant if Rafale won??

Dassault offered to integrate the Kaveri - Snecma engine if we want and if we agree to the co-development, so that could be an interesting option, not necessarily for more thrust, but mainly for a more customised Rafale with indigenous parts. According to some reports we already are developing TVC for Kaveri engine with French help and a 90kN Kaveri - Snecma engine with TVC on Rafale would be a hell of a fighter!

 

[hamtaro]

Angela sayz: "Eurofighter gut - Rafale merde!"

 

[DARKY]

Not necessarily, because the Rafale has quiet good thrust, people only think it is low because they only look at the engine specs, without taking the weight of the fighter to account (=> TWR).




Dassault offered to integrate the Kaveri - Snecma engine if we want and if we agree to the co-development, so that could be an interesting option, not necessarily for more thrust, but mainly for a more customised Rafale with indigenous parts. According to some reports we already are developing TVC for Kaveri engine with French help and a 90kN Kaveri - Snecma engine with TVC on Rafale would be a hell of a fighter!

Yeah last time i heared kaveri notched up 84 kN with AB..........hence its already more than the M88 which were on offer initially.

 

[angeldemon_007]

^^^
Any source for this...? because last i heard it was in 70s and IAF is demanding 90-95 kn....

According to some reports we already are developing TVC for Kaveri engine with French help and a 90kN Kaveri - Snecma engine with TVC on Rafale would be a hell of a fighter!

Hey Sancho, Recently there were reports of ADA going for more than 100 kn engine for AMCA, so is it possible that they are thinking for a higher power engine or higher power for Kaveri ??

Also is it correct that GE414INS6 will offer 120 kn ?/ I mean 2 of these for AMCA will be a huge powerhouse as was indicated in an article....

 

[kingdurgaking]

Yeah last time i heared kaveri notched up 84 kN with AB..........hence its already more than the M88 which were on offer initially.

please provide the source... it has actually developed only 70-75KN

 

[luckyyy]

please provide the source... it has actually developed only 70-75KN

 

[MumbaiIndians]

Latest update on Kaveri tests on Il-76:

Tested till Altitude: 12000m
Speed: 0.7 mach
Max. Thrust bar: 87Kn
Phase 1 of test roadmap accomplished.

Next phase wil start next month, as per panwalla.

 

[kingdurgaking]

I am not sure.. all of them are design parameters or the goal to be achieved... but the reality is they didn't achieved the thrust or the weight ....

and 87KN is impossible..

 

[luckyyy]

Latest update on Kaveri tests on Il-76:

Tested till Altitude: 12000m
Speed: 0.7 mach
Max. Thrust bar: 87Kn
Phase 1 of test roadmap accomplished.

Next phase wil start next month, as per panwalla.

as per the news by GTRE , the maximun thrust got from kaveri on 3 november 2010 flight test was 81kn..

can you provide the source of the latest update on 87kn..

 

[DARKY]

Latest update on Kaveri tests on Il-76:

Tested till Altitude: 12000m
Speed: 0.7 mach
Max. Thrust bar: 87Kn
Phase 1 of test roadmap accomplished.

Next phase wil start next month, as per panwalla.

This has been quoted from BRF i suppose.

 

[sancho]

Yeah last time i heared kaveri notched up 84 kN with AB..........hence its already more than the M88 which were on offer initially.

That's a mistake many people make, just to look at the thrust, but equally important is the weight of the fighter, or in this case of the engine! M88-2 might have only 75kN thrust, but weighs less than 900Kg, while Kaveri is said to have overweight somewhere around 1100Kg, which obviously translates into a worse TWR compared to the French engine. Many people simply underestimate the power of the Rafale, by looking at the low thrust specs and that the fact that it is a twin engine fighter, but the fact is, it weighs less than the single engine F16 IN and has more thrust as well.

Hey Sancho, Recently there were reports of ADA going for more than 100 kn engine for AMCA, so is it possible that they are thinking for a higher power engine or higher power for Kaveri ??

Also is it correct that GE414INS6 will offer 120 kn ?/ I mean 2 of these for AMCA will be a huge powerhouse as was indicated in an article....

I guess you mean the reports about Kaveri - Snecma engine for AMCA, that should get 100 to 110kN. Imo they simply realised what I often said before, that 2 x 90kN is too less for a stealth fighter with full fuel carried internally and a MTOW of 24t, at least if you want to have good TWRs and flight performance.
That are similar specs like EF, but with the difference that EF has less empty weight, because it don't need such huge internal fuel tanks and can carry them externally as well. So if they want good flight performance, they need more thrust as well, but that project is changing the requirements so often, who knows what they really wants.
I never found a reliable source for the GE414INS6 thrust so far, but I highly doubt it, because that would be even more than is expected with the GE 414 EPE and we are not going for it. Interestingly, the GE 414G in the Gripen NG only has 96kN AB thrust, compared to 98kN in the Super Hornet.

 

[sancho]

New Light On Why India Rejected The F-16 & F/A-18

ASHLEY J TELLIS, commentator and senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment has a new piece in India's FORCE magazine which quite substantially fleshes out the stated reasons why the two US contenders in India's M-MRCA fighter competition -- the F-16IN and F/A-18E/F -- were eliminated in a late April decision. The Pentagon, Boeing and Lockheed-Martin, which have been quite silent (about the reasons for the elimination) since the decision, appear to have got their side of things across quite amply, and in great detail, in Mr Tellis' column. For starters, they've shown him those rejection letters they got. A highly readable report. Here's some of the juice:

Tellis' report notes that the F-16IN was found non-compliant on five counts: "growth potential, carefree handling (and automatic sensing of external stores), sustained turn rate, engine change time, and assurance against obsolescence over a 15-year period."

Tellis puts the F-16IN's failure to meet the IAF's enging change time requirement down "largely to an idiosyncratic mishap during the field trials". He writes, "It is certain that if the trials were to involve multiple stochastic demonstrations of engine change, the F-16IN would have easily made the mark. Unfortunately, second chances are sometimes not available, and the IAF, for its own reasons, chose not to accept Lockheed Martin’s subsequent evidence of being able to meet the engine change standards laid down in the ASQR."

Tellis also suggests that the "blurry" nature of the reasons why the F/A-18 was rejected give him doubt about whether the IAF gave the Super Hornet an "equitable shot". He notes that the reasons Boeing was given for the rejection of the F/A-18 were four: "the maturity of its engine design, the growth potential of its engine, assorted performance shortfalls, and issues related to special preventative maintenance".

Livefist: New Light On Why India Rejected The F-16 & F/A-18


Full report:

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/Decoding_Indias_MMRCA_Decision.pdf


Mainly things that most of us expected:

- US couldn't provide required ToT
- US fighters with limited future potential
- US fighters with limited aerodynamic performance
- F16IN could be less maneuverable than PAFs
- GE 414 engine performance was not good enough and was one of the fighters that had problems at Leh. Boeing offered EPE based on test results of the demo version, that IAF didn't accepted


The funny point in Mr Tellis report is, that he now downplays the weakness of the F16IN and F18SH in regard of aerodynamic performance and says that IAF should have focused on sensors and avionics instead. But in his earlier carnegy report he even pointed out that IAF by history has a focus on this and that the RFP requirements also has certain points and at least then he concluded that both, the F16 and F18 would be highly capable and fitting to these requirements!
As I said back then, his analysis of the IAF requirements were very interesting, but his conclusions about the fighters later were clearly biased towards the US.

 

[luckyyy]

Latest update on Kaveri tests on Il-76:

Tested till Altitude: 12000m
Speed: 0.7 mach
Max. Thrust bar: 87Kn
Phase 1 of test roadmap accomplished.

Next phase wil start next month, as per panwalla.

information is true on Altiture as well as on speed.
indeed it's
Tested till Altitude: 12000m
Speed: 0.7 mach

http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfe...ries-of-tests-on-russian-aircraft/669710.html

hope the thrust part = 87Kn
will also comes out in public domain soon..

 

[wind]

How EF going to help India when they have MKI ?

 

[sathya]

rafale with kaveri engine...+ mirage 2000 upgrade now & later engine replacement with kaveri = cheaper nd best deal