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Quite true - Libyan air-space and ground air-defence system are true test of capabilities . Perhaps better if we compare air power and ADS of china+pakistan wrt Libya .

The fact that the US had so much respect for the Libyan air defence, that they didn't used their dedicated EW and SEAD fighters like F18 Growler, F16 CJ until the weakend them with cruise missile and B2 strikes, tells us much about it isn't it? Btw, Rafale went in before that, which also tells us something!


Ohh , don't start your speculation . We have seen enough visual proofs .
And why would eurofighter carry BVRAAM over Libyan air-space , what is there to worry out

I don't speculate, I'm talking about facts!

Here are pics of diffferent EF strike missions in Libya and only at the last it had 1 single BVR missiles. Also if that wouldn't be important, why does the same EF carry even 4 of them and 4 additional WVR missiles in air policing / escort roles (the biggest A2A load of all allied fighters, the others just carry 4, or 6 missiles at max)?

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Here is a typical mission load pic of mirage over libya

http://defense-update.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/mirage200d_lgb.jpg
http://kovy.free.fr/image 1024/M2000-16.jpg

So what do i infer from this pic - ?????

That this is (as I explaind before) a Mirage 2000 D of the French airforce, specialised for strikes and it has the same number of weaponstations like our Mirage 2000s only. That's why it can't carry additional BVR missiles and has to be escorted by Mirage 2000-5, or 2000-9 in dedicated A2A configs like in the second pic. But if they would carry the same strike load on the centerline station, they could still carry up to 3 additional AAMs!

So instead of proving me wrong, you just pointed out once again, that EF in strike load without BVR missiles, is dependent on dedicated escorts, while the advantage of beeing a multi role fighter is, that you can do both A2A and A2G in the same mission. EF consortium calles it "swing role", but it seems they don't really swing isn't it?


So what say now . Which one would be more capable of defending itself and still can take out ground targets

Don't twist my words, or change the topic. I said that the EF is less useful in strike roles even compared to our current Mirage 2000s, because it just have a single strike config operational now (with 1000lb LGB), while Mirage can carry 500/1000/2000lb LGBs now and with the upgrade it gets even more capable, because then it has AASM, or SPICE PGMs and Scalp cruise missiles as well. I never talked about TWRs, but about the available hardpoints, the weapons and the fuel that can be carried!
These are operational facts today, not just imaginary configs of the EF, that might come around 2018 if we pay for the integration. Stick with the facts and you will see that the EF partners agreed in 2009 to order the T3A fighters, but that they don't have any upgrades. The same Captor M radar, the same DASS EWS, the same engine and IRST and besides Paveway IV and the newer GBU 16, not a single new weapon is cleared for integration so far. Weapons like HOPE/HOSBO, or RBS 15, let alone anti radiation missiles will not be integrated for sure and the consortium companies (MBDA) offer these weapons now to export customers like us, to pay for integration.

So if you really want to compare, or argue, do it on facts and take weapons, or capabilities to account that are available, under integration, or at least under evaluation, but when you do that, you will come to the same conclusion. EF will remain to be inferior to Mirage 2000 in this role, untill it gets CFTs, because that is the only way to counter the design/development flaws of the EF!


Can you explain why - As i see , Litening is much smaller than Aim120 - so it wont be blocking bay doors

By length, but the diameter is much bigger! These hardpoints are designed to be integrated into the airframe and don't need additional pylons. That means any load has to fit into a specific diameter, but the Litening pod doesn't and the planed LDP developent that was suppose to fit there was cancelled. That's why the centerline station is the only option at the moment and a big limiting factor as well!


You might disagree but ADlA don't

Not really, you said that 1000lb PGMs will be used instead of 2000lb, which these sources don't talk about. They talk about adding smaller PGMs, or missiles for CAS, or SEAD strikes, because they are more effective against such smaller lighter targets than such bigger LGBs the EF uses.
The 2000lb PGMs instead will be used against big, high value targets like bunkers and again you can see that in Libya as well, wher the US dropped GBU 31 and the French uses GBU 24 against these kinds of well armored targets and the only way for EF to use them es well are CFTs, or a 2nd fighter for laser guidance. That's why ADlA is integrating 2000lb GBU 24 till the end of the year to Rafale and already has ordered similar class AASMs, while they don't want 1000lb LGBs, or AASM, because they are too much for CAS, or SEAD and not enough for high value targets.


Cant deny that but - Keep in mind Fuel tanks on rafale are neither Supersonic nor carefree
Any reason why Rafale would have CFT earlier .

Rafale has types of fuel tanks, 1250l which are supersonic and the subsonic 2000l fuel tanks. Because they were developed and tested in the early 2000s (life, not in the windtunnel only) and it seems like the UAE wants to add them:

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why you guy are fighting?... wait till janewary, you wil know official results... have chai biskoot till then... :lol: :lol:
 
@ Prateek

P.S. If you take a closer look at this pic, especially at the EFs in the background you will see, that they all are loaded for strikes, but don't carry BVR missiles:

http://www.eurofighter.com/typo3temp/pics/a01bf2f02b.jpg


So we are not talking about a single pic, or a single fighter, but a real EF strike config in it's first real combat missions. There must be a reason for it and I'm curious what this might be?
 
Industry Fronts Money for Typhoon Radar R&D

Industry is funding development of the Captor-E active electronically scanned array radar destined for the Eurofighter Typhoon because the four governments in the fighter program don't have the money available at this stage.

Selex Galileo chief executive Fabrizio Giuliani told reporters June 8 that members of the Euroradar consortium and Eurofighter would provide "pre-funding, not self-funding."...

...Talks over the releasability of the AESA technology to India is still under debate and depends on the final solution and final negotiations, Mason said.

"We are looking at the manufacturer of certain subsystems in India software transition in terms of modes and bringing new modes into the radar as well," he said.

Mason said they had agreed a "large amount of funding" from the Eurofighter governments through to the first production standard radars scheduled for completion in 2014 for aircraft production the following year...

Industry Fronts Money for Typhoon Radar R&D - Defense News


- still no government funding for AESA, or other upgrades

- AESA development only pre-funded by the industry

- Indias participation possibly for subsystems

- AESA "planed" to be available for EF in 2015, which increases the risks for the licence production in India
 
Typhoon was apparently defeated by Pakistani f-16s . This is where it should end . Get the rafale . Ef seems like an expensive piece of junk if that news is true .
 
Typhoon was apparently defeated by Pakistani f-16s . This is where it should end . Get the rafale . Ef seems like an expensive piece of junk if that news is true .
RAF Eurofighter Typhoons 'beaten by Pakistani F-16s'

Pakistani pilots flying modernised versions of the 1970s-vintage F-16 Falcon fighter have beaten the RAF's brand-new Eurofighter Typhoon superfighters during air combat exercises in Turkey, according to a Pakistani officer.
This interview with an unnamed but evidently experienced Pakistani Air Force (PAF) F-16 pilot on exchange with the Turkish air force, posted on the official site of the PAF display team, includes the following intriguing passage. (Hat tip to the excellent DEW Line blog for flagging this up.)

Q: Any memorable experiences that you would like to share?

A: On one occasion – in one of the international Anatolian Eagles - PAF pilots were pitted against RAF Typhoons, a formidable aircraft. There were three set-ups and in all three, we shot down the Typhoons. The RAF pilots were shocked.

Q: Any particular reason for your success?

A: NATO pilots are not that proficient in close-in air-to-air combat. They are trained for BVR [Beyond Visual Range] engagements and their tactics are based on BVR engagements. These were close-in air combat exercises and we had the upper hand because close-in air combat is drilled into every PAF pilot and this is something we are very good at.


The Anatolian Eagle air-combat exercises are hosted by the Turkish air force and would have seen Pakistani pilots on exchange with the Turks flying modernised Turkish "Block 50" F-16s, a much-upgraded version of the original US made 1970s Fighting Falcon, which is now in service with many air forces and assembled under licence in various countries including Turkey.

RAF Eurofighter Typhoons 'beaten by Pakistani F-16s' ? The Register
I was jawdropped by this, I thought it was all a joke :D
 
Typhoon was apparently defeated by Pakistani f-16s . This is where it should end . Get the rafale . Ef seems like an expensive piece of junk if that news is true .

it was not pakistani f-16s but PAF pilots were flying modernised Turkish "Block 50" F-16s...

but it certainly put a question mark on IAF evaluation of MMRCA contenders..
worried about EF becoming another jaguar in IAF ..
selecting a unknown against a wellknown and proven platforms (MIG-35) could backfire in future..
 
RAF Eurofighter Typhoons 'beaten by Pakistani F-16s'

This interview with an unnamed but evidently experienced Pakistani Air Force (PAF) F-16 pilot on exchange with the Turkish air force, posted on the official site of the PAF display team, includes the following intriguing passage. (Hat tip to the excellent DEW Line blog for flagging this up.)


That tells enough about the story.
 
Typhoon was apparently defeated by Pakistani f-16s . This is where it should end . Get the rafale . Ef seems like an expensive piece of junk if that news is true .

It could just be a planted news to get India to buy Rafales. IAF is a better judge and so is MoD. Leave it to them.

:cheers:
 
No authentic source, no pilots name. It's just a matter of time when britan responds.

the source is a members post on a militry forum...
a year old message posted by a member on a forum in july 2010 , nobody even bother to reply to that message that time but then it takes one year to cerculate that massge among different forum and today the same post became a headline..
do we expect RAF to came up to clearify on everything that members post on militry forums..
WAFF | Greece & Turkey Defence Forum | World's Armed Forces Forum: paf pilot interview pak-tuaf relations
 
France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills

France's Rafale fighter programme is midway through what could be a pivotal year in the Dassault type's potentially half-century service history. Already involved in NATO-led combat operations over Libya, the aircraft will return to frontline duty in Afghanistan inside the next two months. Its industrial backers are, meanwhile, edging seemingly closer to a long-awaited first export sale.

One of three fighters now in production in western Europe, along with the Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen, the Rafale has been in French military service since 2004, when it entered use with the nation's naval aviation wing.

Air force operations began two years later, and by late May the users had recorded more than 64,000 flight hours with a combined total of 94 aircraft. In September, Dassault and its programme partners, which include Sagem, Snecma and Thales, will celebrate the delivery of their 100th aircraft, including four development examples.

While the French navy's initial batch of 10 carrier-optimised Rafale Ms entered use with its 12F unit in an air-to-air-only standard dubbed F1, the fighter's capabilities have evolved greatly through two subsequent production standards. Each added new air-to-surface weapons and further capabilities, and as evidenced by the missions being flown in support of France's Harmattan commitment to NATO's Operation Unified Protector over Libya, the aircraft is now a truly potent asset.

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Dassault describes its Rafale as being an "omnirole" fighter, a tag that it says denotes the type's ability to perform multiple mission types simultaneously. This differs from the widely adopted multi-role description used by its rivals largely as a result of the aircraft's ability to provide its pilot with data fused from onboard sensors, it says. These range from its Thales RBE2 fire-control radar, Spectra electronic warfare suite and passive front sector optronics equipment to the seekers on its MBDA Mica air-to-air missiles.

"The intention from the beginning was to develop a joint and omnirole Rafale," says Stéphane Reb, programme manager for France's DGA defence procurement agency.

"It was intended to perform air-to-air missions, deterrence, air-to-ground and reconnaissance," adds Reb.

This vision was realised in July 2008, with the introduction to service of the current F3 production-standard aircraft, the broad capabilities of which have been showcased during the Libyan campaign since hostilities commenced in mid-March.

Flight International visited the air force's Rafale detachment at Solenzara air base in Corsica in late May, just as NATO stepped up its campaign against forces loyal to Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi.

With the Dassault Mirage 2000D strike aircraft and Mirage 2000-5 fighters that had operated from the Mediterranean island early in the campaign having relocated to Souda Bay, Crete, in late April, the flightline is now dominated by the service's newest addition, earning it the nickname Rafaletown.

GROUND SUPPORT

A detachment of seven Rafales - a mix of single-seat Cs and twin-seat Bs - is being operated from the site, accompanied by three Mirage F1 reconnaissance aircraft carrying Thales Presto wet-film camera pods. The commitment totals 15 aircrews from the 1/91 Gascogne and 1/7 Provence squadrons for the Rafale force, and five for the F1s. Around 100 ground support personnel are also involved, with roughly 70% of these associated with the newer type.

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French strike aircraft were already in the air when the order was approved for the start of the then-US-led Odyssey Dawn operation on 19 March. "We were involved since day one, hour one," says the current chief of the Rafale detachment, who for operational security reasons can be named only as Lt Col Pierre.

Rafales dropped their first weapons against Libyan targets on 21 March, with these early strikes having been launched from Saint-Dizier air base on the French mainland. Two days later, a major raid also involving navy Rafale Ms flying from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle attacked a Libyan air force base 250km (135nm) inland, and saw France's debut combat use of MBDA's Scalp-EG cruise missile. Identical to the Storm Shadow weapons employed by UK's Royal Air Force Panavia Tornado GR4 strike aircraft earlier in the conflict, they were used to take out infrastructure targets during the French mission.

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Through its transition to NATO control on 31 March and beyond, the Libyan operation has maintained a high operational tempo. By late May the Rafale detachment at Solenzara had logged around 2,200 flight hours, with "zero no-fly days" reported since the type's arrival. Typically, its crews fly between a combined four and eight sorties a day, each with a transit time of around 2h before they reach the North African coast.

"They can be 6-8h flights, depending on the mission," says Pierre. Due to this extended endurance, the aircraft rely on the provision of tanker support from French air force Boeing C-135s and other coalition assets, such as US Air Force KC-135s. Three or four in-flight refuellings are required on each mission, and more than 1,500 have been performed so far.

Although air force officials say the long-range missions cause no problems with regard to airframe wear and tear, and pilots hail the fighter's cockpit ergonomics for minimising crew fatigue, the service has requested a move away from Corsica. If approved, this should see the detachment relocate to Sigonella in Sicily, and reduce combined transit times by between 90min and 2h per sortie.

The Rafale's main weapons in Libya are Sagem's AASM precision-guided bomb, in its GPS/INS-guided GBU-38 guise, and Raytheon's GBU-12 Paveway II, which have release weights of 226-250kg (500-550lb). By late last month more than 100 had been dropped, with the latter, laser-guided type now being used more frequently due to the clear weather conditions experienced in the operating area.

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Libya represents the first opportunity for the French air force to employ the Thales Damocles targeting pod, although the navy gave the system its combat debut over Afghanistan in late 2010.

Also referred to as the Hammer, the AASM weapon has impressed during the campaign to date. Incorporating a precision guidance kit and propulsion system, the design will eventually be available for use with standard bombs weighing between 125kg and 1,000kg, although a 250kg version is the only one currently in service. Sagem cites a range capability of more than 32nm from high altitude, or 8nm from low level.

Launches can also be made from an off-axis angle of up to 90°, while up to six weapons can be fired against individual targets in a single pass and with just one trigger press.

ILLEGAL MOVEMENT

An AASM was employed in late March when an air force Rafale destroyed a Soko G-2 Galeb that had violated the UN-mandated no-fly zone over Libya. A French Boeing E-3F airborne warning and control system aircraft had detected the illegal movement near Misrata, but the trainer had landed before permission came to shoot it down, sources say. With the Sagem weapon lacking the ability to strike moving targets - a function that will become operational with a laser-guidance update in 2013 - the aircraft is believed to have been stationary when it was hit.

The Rafale's ability to adapt to the changing nature of the Galeb strike reflects the flexibility needed to react to events in Libya. While a master air campaign plan is issued 48h in advance of a sortie and a more detailed air tasking order arrives 24h before the aircraft fly, Pierre says his aircraft are routinely re-tasked once airborne. "Air-to-surface, air-to-air, all weather, day and night. Over Libya we are flying those kinds of omnirole missions," he says. "It is very easy and practical to task us - it reduces the complexity of missions and reduces the tasking plan." According to the French air force, a two-ship formation of Rafales can provide NATO with the same payload and situational awareness as a flight of four Mirage 2000Ds and two Mirage 2000-5s.

Solenzara-based aircraft also typically fly daily missions over Libya carrying Thales's Reco-NG/Areos digital reconnaissance pod, which can obtain pre- and post-strike imagery, and also record video footage of attacks.

Pierre says pilots can transmit pictures to the imagery intelligence cell at their operating base while still in the air, or alternatively to Rafale Ms aboard the Charles de Gaulle if potential targets are found. This can save precious hours against the previous-generation Mirage F1 and Presto combination.

"The Rafale really is a gathering platform. You're being fed by different means - that can be via AWACS using Link 16, or from your wingman, all with no radio communications," Pierre says. "All the information you can get from your sensors is vital."

Urgent operational requirements have emerged from Libya, and also from Afghanistan before it. The air force is now seeking a weapon with a reduced collateral effect to give it a lighter-weight option than its 250kg AASM. Candidates include MBDA's dual-mode Brimstone missile, now used by RAF Tornado GR4s, and guided rockets.

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It is also urgently looking to field versions of the Hammer that have been optimised for use against armoured targets and in a close air support scenario. Development work on the latter has already been performed, with the new mode to enable the bomb to descend on its target in a corkscrew motion from above, rather than be fired from stand-off range.

These and other enhancements will boost the ability of pilots to perform their duty in Libya, and also in Afghanistan, where they will return to duty on 1 August. Noting that the type made its offensive debut in 2007, Reb says: "When we say that the Rafale is a combat-proven aircraft, it's not only words."

Getting it right when it comes to introducing new weapons and sensors is of critical importance to France, as by 2015 it will have streamlined its combat aircraft fleets to operating the type alongside only the Mirage 2000-5 and 2000N strike aircraft.

By 2030 the Rafale will be its sole manned fighter, although the air force could also start to field an unmanned combat air system from around this time.

Signed in December 2009 and covering the delivery of 60 aircraft, the programme's fourth order will extend production up to the end of 2019. Paris's commitment takes to 180 the number of Rafales to be produced for its air force and navy, from a total commitment for 286 aircraft: 228 B/Cs and 58 Ms, respectively. "With the other aircraft that we still have to order, we plan to keep the production line running until 2025," says Reb.

The current rate is set to deliver 11 aircraft a year, with around six on the line at any one time at Dassault's Merignac site. The goal is for each aircraft to spend around five months between the arrival of its main structures and customer acceptance, with roughly 70% of the activity at the site concerned with test activities, such as on fuel and hydraulics systems and flight controls.

Growing combat experience will only strengthen Dassault's efforts to sell the Rafale to international customers, and it now has several strong prospects. The company is waiting on the outcome of the roughly 36-aircraft F-X2 competition in Brazil, where its product had the open support of former president Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva in a battle against the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the Gripen NG. A decision is expected to be made in 2012.

The Rafale has also reached the final two candidates in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft contest, with the Typhoon also in contention to supply the nation's air force with at least 126 fighters.

SPECULATION

Fresh speculation has also emerged over the past few weeks with regard to a long-expected deal with the United Arab Emirates, where the French air force already bases some of its aircraft. Dassault says it would have no problem with increasing its current build rate, having previously run the Merignac line at a rate of two aircraft a month. "We've done a study to up to treble the current rate, and could do it," says Jean-Marc Gasparini, the company's vice-president military aircraft. "It's a problem we would like to have."

Five of the Rafales to be delivered this year have already been handed over, and among those currently on the line is the 100th to have been built: a C-model fighter for the air force.

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Another milestone should be reached in June, when a second navy squadron - 11F - will begin operations. MBDA is also within weeks of delivering its first AM39 Exocet Block 2 Mod 2 anti-ship missiles to arm the service's Rafale Ms. Its first, F1-standard fighters remain in storage, but will be modified to the F3 configuration before entering use again between 2014 and 2017.

All early-production aircraft will eventually be brought up to the latest standard, while further upgrades are planned over the coming years. "The main aim is to keep the Rafale at the top level of performance and capability," says Reb. The next standard to enter frontline use, in mid-2013, is dubbed F3-04T. This will introduce an active electronically scanned array with the RBE2 radar, the laser-guided AASM, improved front sector optronics and MBDA's DDM-NG passive missile approach warning system.

Down the line, the European company's Meteor beyond visual-range air-to-air missile should enter French use around 2018, although Reb says this could occur "faster, if necessary". The DGA late last year ordered its first 200 of the weapon, which is also being developed for Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden and the UK.

Funded research and development studies are already looking towards possible enhancements to be made several years beyond this point. Reb identifies areas such as a reduction to the aircraft's radar cross-section, expanded flight envelope, human/machine interface enhancements and new communications equipment and weapons. A mid-life update is also planned from around 2025, but the requirements for this have yet to be defined.

For now, the French air force and navy are meeting requirements with their modest fleets of the new-generation type, which are expanding slowly due to budgetary constraints. However, this ability could soon be tested as never before, as a protracted Libyan campaign would be in addition to the operational demands of Afghanistan. If the Unified Protector/Harmattan mission is to run on, the air force's commitment will continue to be maintained by drawing pilots and personnel from squadrons on a rotation basis. "It's long-term planned; we can sustain the operation," says Pierre.

"In Libya we use the Rafale to 100% of its capability as an omnirole aircraft. In a single mission you do reconnaissance, air-to-air and air-to-ground. It's a real pleasure to fly this aeroplane," he adds.

To find out about the Rafale's performance, read Peter Collins' flight test report:

INDUSTRY PARTNERS TEST NEXT PACKAGE OF ENHANCEMENTS


FRANCE'S most recent production order for the Dassault Rafale will lead to the delivery from mid-2013 of 60 aircraft with an enhanced range of "omnirole" capabilities. Spanning the sensor, propulsion and weapons spheres, the developments are the focus of advanced activities involving partner companies Thales, Snecma and Sagem, plus the French military's CEV flight test organisation.

One of the most important advances will be the introduction of an active electronically scanned array for the RBE2 radar. Now a key equipment requirement in most fighter sales campaigns around the globe, the technology promises increased detection range, improved reliability and reduced maintenance demands through-life.

Thales is now working on its first series production examples of the AESA sensor, while a performance evaluation test campaign is under way at the CEV's Cazaux site. A modified Mirage 2000 is currently being flown with a Rafale nose section that accommodates a test version of the active array, with an adapted Falcon 20 business jet also being used to support the effort.

The AESA integration was validated on a Rafale in February, and Thales says flight tests so far have demonstrated that "all aspects of the radar's performance comply with the technical specifications of the contract".

Any future export sale of the Rafale to nations such as Brazil or India would contain the new sensor configuration.

Propulsion system supplier Snecma, meanwhile, will deliver its first enhanced examples of the M88 engine to Dassault's Merignac final assembly site in November, after completing the last test activities on the -4E version this month.

Drawing on the activities of Snecma's ECO development programme of 2004-07, the new standard will reduce ownership costs and maintenance demands, and will also have the growth potential to increase available power from a current maximum of 17,000lb (75kN) to roughly 19,800lb.

Key changes include a new high-pressure turbine, three new HP compressor stages and some changes to materials and geometry. More than 70 test flights have been performed, and "all the test objectives have been met", says M88 project leader Bruce Pontoizeau. "If anyone wants a 9t [rated] engine it can be there in the programme," he adds.

Such an enhancement would be of particular interest to the United Arab Emirates, which has long been interested in acquiring the Rafale, but has requested that it be made available with an increased power output.

Sagem had by late May delivered 260 M88 engines, with a further 146 on firm order.

Another capability that is to come with the next batch of aircraft will be a laser-guided version of Sagem's AASM Hammer precision-guided bomb.

Used extensively during France's current involvement in Libya, the weapon is now available with GPS/INS guidance.

This will also be combined with an infrared seeker in use from 2012. But while the AASM boasts all-weather capability and a stand-off range of more than 32nm (60km), it lacks the ability to strike moving targets.

A new laser-guided version was demonstrated in three test firings last year. These included a strike against a target from a vertical trajectory, another which replicated the future availability of an advanced targeting pod, and a shot in which the weapon tracked a laser spot from a turret-mounted ground illuminator travelling at 43kt (80km/h) and replicating a moving vehicle. It hit the target less than 1m (3ft) away from the spot.

Three qualification tests will be conducted next year against "representative targets".

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