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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

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Everyone knows about the bribery case.

In any case, how can you say Rafale 'is far better' (other than that India might sign the deal) ?? If you are referring to the Libyan combat ops, they were done by Tornados and Mirage as well.

Well I think the Saudis went after EF bcauz they were operating a Brit Aircraft so it makes sense to go after the same type
Less cost,training common spares
& people should know that Rafael is better becauz IAF chose it
India favored an aircraft on pure merits base & Saudis also consider merit but deplomatic relations & other stuff comes before it
PS I don't know much about this stuff still learning
 
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Well I think the Saudis went after EF bcauz they were operating a Brit Aircraft so it makes sense to go after the same type
Less cost,training common spares
& people should know that Rafael is better becauz IAF chose it
India favored an aircraft on pure merits base & Saudis also consider merit but deplomatic relations & other stuff comes before it
PS I don't know much about this stuff still learning
Then whatever you wrote gets disqualified from discussion anyway.
 
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Well I think the Saudis went after EF bcauz they were operating a Brit Aircraft so it makes sense to go after the same type
Less cost,training common spares

The Tornado and the EF are not the same type, they don't share training, or even spares to reduce costs, the only commonality is aimed to be the weapon pack and that only if the Saudis fund the integration, so there is no relation or even cost saving for them.
 
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Well I think the Saudis went after EF bcauz they were operating a Brit Aircraft so it makes sense to go after the same type
Less cost,training common spares
& people should know that Rafael is better becauz IAF chose it
India favored an aircraft on pure merits base & Saudis also consider merit but deplomatic relations & other stuff comes before it
PS I don't know much about this stuff still learning
The Panvia Tornada itself isn't even a solely Brit fighter but a German, Italian and British collaborative effort. The main reason behind the Saudis going for the EFT is because they were BRIBED to do so. As has been pointed out by @sancho, in EVERY contract the Rafale and EFT have gone head to head in the Rafale has come out ahead on purely TECHNICAL grounds. The fact this hasn't translated into export orders is a completely different issue but rest assured has NOTHING to do with the Rafale being in any way inferior to the EFT. In fact it may be Dassault having the last laugh when the Rafale is still in production and pursuing a upgrade road map but the EFT is out of production and only n % what it could have been.
 
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I sincerely think you are missing one point, 60 years old relationship. After such a long time, you can expect trust and respect from both sides. Apart from that, there are certainly issues in negociations. But when the deal comes up, it will be a good deal for both sides.
Thats my opinion, others are welcome of course.
 
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As has been pointed out by @sancho, in EVERY contract the Rafale and EFT have gone head to head in the Rafale has come out ahead on purely TECHNICAL grounds.

Didn't the IAF rank EF above Rafale on the basis of the technical evaluation trials they carried out?

Unless, of course, I'm missing something.
 
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With the 4th largest Air force in the world signing a massive deal for rafale minimum 126 fighters prehaps 189 fighters the Dassult rafale fututre will have completely catapulted to another level.

Is it not possible for the numbers to increase?
 
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people should know that Rafael is better becauz IAF chose it

I think you should know,
1. Rafale is better than EFT in A2G
2. EFT is better than Rafale in A2A
3. EFT has lower RCS
4. Rafale has AESA and SPECTRA
5. Rafale can carry more stuff to farther targets
6. Rafale is cheaper

Indian MMRCA required IAF to replace ageing Mig-27 and Jaguar bombers so A2G capabilities were of prime importance the only jets meeting all A2G requirements were Rafale and F-18E/F. Rafale was technologically more advanced and transferred higher amount of technology also compared Boeing, Dassault was already present in Indian market making it comparatively easier for it to meet the high offset requirement of the deal also they had already supplied IAF with Mirage-2000 which really made its mark on the IAF during Kargil they wanted to go ahead and purchase more of them but the MOD decided to go for an open tender initial RFI was not sent to Boeing it joined the tender later after getting consent from US govt. where it was made perfectly clear that there would be restrictions. EFT on the other hand made it to the final due to it being the most technologically advanced fighter.
 
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Didn't the IAF rank EF above Rafale on the basis of the technical evaluation trials they carried out?

Unless, of course, I'm missing something.

Nope, just false media reports from EF partner countries came up with that.

Is it not possible for the numbers to increase?

Sure, you can always buy more, but you have to look at the requirement of IAF first and how many fighters needs to be replace, or how many other fighters are coming in too. IAF basically will induct LCA, Rafale and FGFA roughly at the same time, so if there is a need for more fighters, it can be any of them, mainly depending on the available funds.

I
Indian MMRCA required IAF to replace ageing Mig-27 and Jaguar bombers so A2G capabilities were of prime

MMRCA will not replace any Jaguars, only Mig 21s and "some" Mig 27 squads (most of them will be replaced by MKIs), strike had surely an importance, but IAF looked at high performance at both sides and short listed the 2 fighters with the best A2A performance, but at the same time also the once with the best stand off missiles on offer (although the EF still needs to integrate it). In theory they even wanted maritime attack capability, but I guess that will have no importance anymore. They won't buy Rafale with Exocet, nor will they pay extra for all the changes on the EF to make it useful in maritime attack roles. With the upgrades of Mig 29s and the newly raised MKI squads in the coastal area, that role should be covered anyway.
 
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This is not to say, however, that Rafale’s own impressive qualities had nothing to do with its selection. The Indian Air Force, which was extensively briefed by the French air force in the autumn, was particularly impressed by its operational performance during the Libyan bombing campaign and in Afghanistan. Rafale also has a naval variant which could be of future interest to India, given its plans to buy and build aircraft carriers, while the recent decision to upgrade India’s Mirage 2000H fighters will simplify the air force’s logistics chain, as these will share with Rafale many weapons and other equipment.

The Indian Air Force also is a satisfied user of long standing of French fighters, going back to the Dassault Ouragan in the 1950s. It was also particularly appreciative of the performance of its Mirages during the 1999 Kargil campaign against Pakistan, and of the support it then obtained from France. During that campaign, India obtained French clearance – and possibly more - to urgently adapt Israeli and Russian-supplied laser-guided bombs to the Mirages, which were thus able to successfully engage high-altitude targets that Indian MiG-23s and MiG-27s had been unable to reach.

Rafale was preferred because of lower costs, and the Indian air force's familiarity with French warplanes such as the Mirage, Bloomberg reported Feb. 1 quoting an Indian source who asked not be named. "Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well equipped with French fighters, is favoring the French," the source said.

To Indian officials, France’s steadfastness as a military ally contrasted strongly with that of the United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft that India was developing. And, of course, the 1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after India’s nuclear test in May of that year, left a very bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the contrary, was the only Western nation not to impose sanctions on that occasion.

That, Indian sources say, was New Delhi’s real reason for eliminating Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the fighter competition; India has resolved, these sources say, to buy only second-line equipment from the U.S., such as transport (C-17, C-130J) or maritime patrol aircraft (P-8I). Vital weapons such as missiles and fighters, when they cannot be locally produced, will remain the preserve of France and Russia.

Political considerations were also a significant factor playing against Rafale’s final competitor, the Eurofighter Typhoon. As this aircraft is produced by a consortium of four nations, each with different foreign policies and different attitudes and tolerances to arms exports, Indian officials were a bit nervous about their ultimate reliability as a single supplier.

Germany is a long-standing Indian aviation partner, and a respected role model for Indian politicians, many of whom were educated there. German companies – essentially the former Messerschmitt-Boelkow-Blohm, now part of EADS - helped Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. develop both the LCA and the Advanced Light Helicopter, now called Dhruv. These links were the reason the Eurofighter bid was led by Germany’s Cassidian, and not BAE Systems, the former colonial power. But Germany had dithered over technology transfer for LCA, soft-pedaled on ALH tech transfer when German pacifists raised their eyebrows, and coughed when India almost went to war with Pakistan over Kargil and Kashmir, so in the final analysis it could not be considered a reliable supplier of major weapons.

Italy has never sold a major weapon to India, and so could bring neither influence nor reputation to support Eurofighter, while the third partner, Spain, is totally absent from the Indian military landscape.

This left BAE Systems as the best-known Eurofighter partner in India, and so by default as its ultimate public face. BAE in 2003 sold £1.5 billion’s worth of Hawk jet trainers to India, with a follow-on, £500 million order in 2010. However, its previous major sale to India was the Jaguar light attack aircraft in the 1970s. In fact, this aircraft was jointly developed by Britain and France on a 50/50 basis, and while it was license-produced by HAL it was never really successful as a fighter. Furthermore, France could claim as much benefit from its Indian career as BAE.

Taken together, the Eurofighter partner nations posed an even thornier problem: in case of war, German law prohibits deliveries of weapons and spares, Italian law and public opinions would demand an embargo, while Spanish legislation is murky. What would happen, Indian politicians must have wondered, if after buying the Eurofighter they went to war? Would spares and weapons be forthcoming, or would they be embargoed? The political risk was obviously too big to take.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...qIQjXIbyK1lk7H60EKAExcA&bvm=bv.64764171,d.bmk
 
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The Tornado and the EF are not the same type, they don't share training, or even spares to reduce costs, the only commonality is aimed to be the weapon pack and that only if the Saudis fund the integration, so there is no relation or even cost saving for them.

I was saying thesame thing
Since both fighters are Brit they both would share something's in this case weapons package
 
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I was saying thesame thing
Since both fighters are Brit they both would share something's in this case weapons package

Again buddy, they don't share anything! Different fighters, for different purpose, with different techs and currently not even the same weapons. Only IF the Saudis fund integration of Paveway IV, Brimstone and Storm Shadow to their EFs, there would be some commonality for them, but only then and only for the weapons, while anything else would be completely different!
It's like saying the Jaguars are the same type as EF, or Rafale, because the manufacturers are the same, when it actually has no relation to them.
 
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I was saying thesame thing
Since both fighters are Brit they both would share something's in this case weapons package

+they really wanted to spend a lot of money!
 
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Incertitudes sur l'avenir du missile du Rafale produit par Safran - Aéronautique - Défense

More bad news for the Rafale, google translation is bad (maybe @halloweene can help), but if i got it right, the AASM production might end by mid 2016, if no additional order would be placed. A promissing deal for the Saudi Tornados and / or EFs seems to be lost, after they got approval for Paveway IV kits. So without an export of the weapon soon, or additional orders of the French forces, another crucial capability of the Rafale (after the IRST) could be lost.
 
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