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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

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That is some high end leak

Yes, if the signatures of the Swiss air force commanders are original, this would be a very credible source.

Interesting indeed.

Many interesting points, if the report is to believe:

- Rafale beeing superior to EF in every single A2A evaluation will
- that it has better sensor fusion and EW
- that 11 upgrades that could come if the UAE buys Rafale might be included in Swiss Rafales too, which then should be added for Indian Rafales as well
- that the Gripen E/F even with up to 98 upgrades is not able to offer comparable mission effectiveness as Rafale with only 18 upgrades, which once again shows how capable Rafale is even today


However, I don't see the Swiss changing their mind, because they chose the fighter they can afford to procure and operate, not the most capable one. Dassault might offer some cost reductions, but the operational costs will still remain higher and that's the important point for Switzerland. In India things went exactly the other way around, money didn't played a big role, that's why the most expensive, but also most capable fighters (EF at least with high potential) were selected to the final stage.
 
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Rafale cost could soar into Skies

SUMAN SHARMA NEW DELHI | 12th Feb


rafale-365_1329039686.jpg


A Rafale fighter jet makes a catapult launch aboard France’s flagship Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier last year. REUTERS

huge imponderables remain in the pricing of the French fighter Rafale, which the Indian Air Force is expected to purchase this year. France has two audit reports on the pricing of the Rafale fighter aircraft, and the price of the aircraft is different in the two. Variables also include the transfer of technology and development costs. French Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighter was recently declared the lowest bidder (L-1) for the IAF's 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract.

One of the audit report records the total cost of the programme at double than the original Indian tender estimate, and the other is triple. If the tab picked up by the French government for the development of Rafale, which is 75%, is included in the eventual price, going by these audit reports, the amount could escalate to close to around $30 billion for the MMRCA, from its original $12 billion.

It may be noted that the MMRCA tender, which was floated in August 2007 and given to six competitors, had a price tag of $12 billion (Rs 42,000 cr) for the total programme for 126 planes. But when the commercial bids opened in November 2011, the price of the programme was announced as $15 billion by the Ministry of Defence (MoD). On 31 January 2012, when the L-1 was declared, the price was announced at $18 billion.

In either of the prices, the MoD will have to fall back on the Ministry of Finance's final word to be put up by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), before inking the deal. This is because one report records the total price of the programme at more than $20 billion (around Rs 83,000 cr) and the other records it to around $30 billion (around Rs 125,000 cr).


the first report by the French audit watchdog was submitted in February last year and was based on 2009 estimates, when the Indian technical evaluation got completed and field trials began. According to this report, the price of one Rafale was 142.3 million euro (roughly Rs 900 cr). This cost comprised cost of development and the number of aircraft, in which 101.1 million euro was the cost of development.

This 142.3 million euro is 16.5% more than what was estimated in 1988 by the French government. The increased pricing was attributed by the French audit to the usage of excess polyvalence (raw material). Meanwhile, it has been widely believed that India will probably buy Rafales at around 80-87 million euro each, which means the 126 planes will come without the cost of development.

The second audit report compiled by the French Senate says that a Rafale would cost 152.3 million euro (approximately Rs 1,000 cr), which includes development costs as well.

The Indian MMRCA is important for Dassault, considering the fact that the French government has spent more than $50 billion in developing the aircraft. The programme will create 10,000 jobs. The current production capacity of the company is that of 11 aircraft per year. Every year, the Rafale programme costs around 1 billion euro in the French defence budget.

Talking about price, former Air Chief S. Krishnaswamy told this newspaper, "India may have identified the cheaper aircraft out of the two shortlisted, but it is India which is the loser as our own fighter, the LCA Tejas could not come on time, which is why we had to go for MMRCA. All the money to be spent on MMRCA could have been pumped into the LCA, our indigenous plane, for its development and production, but since we have already spent so much on the LCA and now all this additional money for the MMRCA, it makes the country a loser in the end."

Dassault has lost out bids for the aircraft in Singapore, Morocco, South Korea, Norway and Netherlands in the recent past, which dashed the hopes of the makers who were eyeing India as a big market. Brazil, Switzerland and UAE too rejected Rafale last year, taking the count of countries rejecting Rafale to eight.

The most recent deal lost out by Dassault for 60 Rafales, worth $10 billion, was the one for the United Arab Emirates Air Force, which Dassault was pursuing for years. Citing "uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms" as the reason, the Abu Dhabi crown prince Sheik Mohamed bin Zayed announced Rafale's ouster from the competition at the Dubai air show last year.

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investigation/rafale-cost-could-soar-into-skies#.TzfCW9wBm1F.twitter
 
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Price is the key....even it should not have crossed 15-18b. Else better to reduce the number of aircraft and concentrate on LCA MK2
 
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I have doubt, why didn't French fit Snecma M53 engine in Rafale? It has more thrust than the current M88 ?
 
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As expected:

Israeli systems in the new Indian fighter aircraft?

The Indian government wants to equip its new fighter aircraft, the French Rafale, with Rafael's Litening pod.

India wishes to equip its new fighter aircraft, the French Rafale, with Israeli-produced systems, but there is doubt that the French government will allow it. At this stage, it is known that India is primarily interested in Rafael's Litening pod, which is intended for navigation and locating ground targets...

Israeli systems in the new Indian fighter aircraft?
 
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REFILE-UPDATE 2-Brazil "very likely" to choose French fighter jet-sources

SAO PAULO, Feb 12 (Reuters) - Brazil is "very likely" to choose France's Rafale fighter jet to refurbish its air force, government sources say, a decision that would award one of the emerging-market world's most coveted defense contracts to a jet whose future was in doubt only two weeks ago...

...The sources said those concerns were assuaged when India announced on Jan. 31 that it had entered exclusive talks to buy 126 Rafales. Brazilian Defense Minister Celso Amorim traveled to New Delhi last week to discuss the deal with Indian officials and examine documents related to Dassault's bid.

"The India deal changed everything," one of the Brazilian sources said. "With India's decision, it's now very likely the Rafale will be the winner here."..

REFILE-UPDATE 2-Brazil very likely to choose French fighter jet-sources | Reuters



Malaysia, the Rafale's radar and defense industrial

...Suddenly, the coast of the Rafale with the military government and Malaysian rebounded unbelievable speed "The victory of the Rafale in India has created a shock wave here in Malaysia. Especially since we know the neighboring Indians demanding in this kind of negotiation both technically and financially. Before that, he would have been difficult to select a device that had never been sold for export, "said one observer of the defense market in Malaysia...

Google Übersetzer
 
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Indian selection might change Dassault's fortune for atleast a decade.....
 
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I doubt if this will happen !! French are stubborn - they really wouldnt want to take away any market share from Local arms manufacturers (Damocles) - esp if they are willing to drop the price !! On the other hand - India should just keep up the pressure - Litening is considered to be advanced that Damocles - and also there will be commonality of systems.
 
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I doubt if this will happen !! French are stubborn - they really wouldnt want to take away any market share from Local arms manufacturers (Damocles) - esp if they are willing to drop the price !! On the other hand - India should just keep up the pressure - Litening is considered to be advanced that Damocles - and also there will be commonality of systems.
keep in mind what happened to Mirages at the time of kargil .
 
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keep in mind what happened to Mirages at the time of kargil .

What happened ? It was a national emergency - India would have nevertheless gone ahead and integrated those LGB's regardless of French support being/not being there. French did a wise thing of supporting us. But now - there is no national emergency !
 
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HAL prepares to manufacture Rafale combat jet in India

State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is getting ready to progressively manufacture the Dassault Rafale combat jet that has apparently been chosen by the Indian Air Force (IAF) for its $10.4 billion order for 126 planes.

HAL officiating Chairman and Managing Director P.V. Deshmukh told India Strategic defence magazine (..:: India Strategic ::.. Home Page: The authoritative monthly on Defence and Strategic Affairs.) that the company had already earmarked its own land near Bangalore, where it is headquartered, to produce some of the aircraft's major components and integrate the overall aircraft and systems.

The first 18 aircraft would come in fly-away condition, within three years of signing of the contract and meanwhile, HAL would get the production tooling, expertise and technical know-how under transfer of technology from the French.

The remaining 108 aircraft would initially be progressively manufactured from SKD (semi-knocked-down) and CKD (completely knocked-down) kits. Gradually, HAL would start producing the fuselage and other parts from the raw materials. Dassault engineers would assist in technology transfer and production plants.

HAL has been preparing for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project in terms of allocation of funds and organisational changes needed to launch and deliver the targets on time. Three phases have been earmarked for HAL's goalposts in manufacturing this highly-sophisticated aircraft.

Deshmukh, who was earlier managing director of HAL's MiG complex at Nasik, said that over the next 10 years, the Rafale project should generate business approximating $4-5 billion. "It is a huge project for us," he observed.

He disclosed that HAL already had Memorandums of Understanding (MoUs) with Dassault and engine-maker Snecma to produce some of the designated parts. "HAL has been preparing for the MMRCA project in terms of allocation of funds and organizational changes needed to launch and deliver the MMRCA project targets on time."

Separate divisions have been planned for the aircraft and engine of the MMRCA at Bangalore, and two locations have been shortlisted within the HAL estate there for setting up the airframe and engine divisions.

Pre-planning activities with respect to conceptual design of plant layout for the aircraft and engine production units are under progress. Accessory production has been planned at HAL divisions at Hyderabad, Lucknow and Korwa (Uttar Pradesh).

Deshmukh described the Rafale as a state-of-the-art multi-role combat aircraft capable of a wide range of missions such as air defence, air superiority, close air support, air-to-ground precision strikes, interdiction, maritime roles and nuclear strikes. It has an integrated suite of avionics, electronic sensors, AESA Radar and active/passive counter measures.

"HAL is the designated lead production agency for the airframe, aero-engine and systems integration of the aircraft. Out of the 126 aircraft,, 18 aircraft will be directly supplied by Dassault Aviation and 108 aircraft will be built at HAL in three phases. In the next four years, the Rafale aircraft deliveries would commence from HAL to the Indian Air Force as per the agreed schedule. HAL envisages a business volume of about Rs.20,000 to Rs.25,000 crores ($4-5 billion) in the MMRCA project over the next 10 years."

Deshmukh said that the offset requirement of the MMRCA programme being 50 percent of the foreign exchange content, HAL is also looking forward to active participation in this industrial effort up to around 30 per cent of the offset value.

HAL prepares to manufacture Rafale combat jet in India | Deccan Chronicle
 
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