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Rediff On The NeT: US sanctions hit progress on LCA and light chopper projects


Sanctions did have a effect on our programs but i can't see sanctions being placed in the future as times have changed.

---------- Post added at 07:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 PM ----------

Even EF cant match its numbers...

Remember somewhere Sancho made a point yesterday or day before. Its not that for Dogfight. We should be effectively destroy at their bases even before its takeoff.

See if A2G with BVR capabilities Rafale is the best not EF and this needs very swift action and only Rafale with its current capability can pursue that.

If its a Dogfight, then Chinese can out number anything India buys or produces by itself.

I hope you agree...


What bases will you destroy? 90% of Chinese airbases are too far anyway

---------- Post added at 07:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------

cnmilmap-plaaf.gif
 
Yes I agree the Chinese have numerical supremacy thats why I would go for the cutting edge EF in BVR mode to face them but thats just my choice.
 
Please tell me even if its completely transferred, Do you think India will have all manufacturing units which can produce all the items incl nuts and bolts for the fighter. Best example is Bofors had 100% technology transfer and yet not made even single gun in India. Worse, they were not even aware until recently.

Bofors reloaded: Defence ministry stung again

As the military top brass desperately look around for solutions to the crippling shortage of artillery guns, they stumbled upon the fact that India actually has the entire drawings of the Bofors guns, and had paid for the transfer of technology to manufacture the gun in India. But the Ordnance Factory Board sat on the drawings all these years, never attempting to make the gun in India.


I am not saying, India might not use the transfer technology effectively. But there will be a share of manufacturing hubs across countries and each will make their own supply.

And to my knowledge, India herself did not ask for 100% ToT in their RFP's. Anyone knows exact percentage of ToT request in MMRCA deal.

Its not necessary that one repeats the old mistakes again, Indian Aero industry has matured a bit and the MMRCA is an important deal for India, HAL is upgrading its facilities to make full use of the transfer of technology and to be an active manufacturer to aid it in maturing itself to start building India's indigenous aircrafts. TOT will be 100% in the case of EF, but India will be the fifth manufacturer in the consortium and with it it will bring a host of benefits to the aircraft itself, besides the order will revitalise the existing production lines in Europe and shortage of parts will not be an issue due to this in the near future. Indian Aero industry is taking this deal seriously resulting in the delay that we are witnessing. Some glitches will be apparent but the new consortium can gear up rectify it. This deal if used effectively will greatly aid us in our future productions.

The french rafale is most definitely out, so no point discussing it other than if the french give us a way better deal, the EF has proved to be the plane of choice and the price quote is cheaper than rafale. The downside is if this deal does not go through it will result in dassault closing down its production which is sad cos the rafale is a great plane.
 
mosts of the member say that MRCA only real valid reason is TOT however i disagree..india could easily have gotten much technology as sub systems for their LCA and or AMCA the future jet instead of wasting over 20 billion dollars in MRCA...

First of all, LCA isn't available, otherwise we wouldn't need a new fighter.
Secondly, it's not only ToT but also the offsets that gives Indian companies the chance to make JV, co-development or at least take over parts of the production of the foreign vendors, which improves them by far. The competition alone made US and several Europeans to form JV with Indian counterparts and we wouldn't have got this chance without this procurement.
Also it's simply wrong that you can get the same ToT by just procureing parts and the best example is the Gripen E/F, which gets Swashplate AESA, IRST and even some parts of the EWS from EF consortium companies, that are even based on EFs systems and still it was provenly technically less capable than the EF. Why? because you sell downgraded parts to normal export customers, same reason why the US offered F16IN with the AN/APG-80 AESA radar, but customers that just want to upgrade their F16s or other fighters with US AESA gets only the Raytheon RACR AESA, which is meant to be an export AESA.

How is Rafale a better product to the EF? when EF has better performance and lower RCS

Depends on what performance you are talking? Multi role, strike, passive systems, low observability, cost-effectivity, suitability to IAF fleet... there are many performance fields where the Rafale is better. The lower RCS is more than debatable since there are no reliable sources and compared just by RCS reduction features the Rafale might even have the upper hand too.
Btw, don't compare the TWR of the current EF with that of the EF offered in MMRCA, since it is likely to be much heavier than it is now with the Swashplate AESA.

Strikeforce check out the Eurofighter vs Rafale thread on IDF and what jagjitnatt says on the topic and I share his views but I know Sancho and Spark love the Rafale.

That has nothing to do with love for a fighter but with wanting the best for Indian forces and the EF currently don't fit the bill.

Buddy spare parts on the EF is not a issue just ask the Saudis, people are making it a big thing when it's not.

It is, that's why British, Germans and Austrian are complainin about it, I posted sources about this some days ago.


There are rumours that the EF was the top performer in the test trials but they are just that rumours.


RAF Typhoon leads the race to secure £7 billion arms deal - Telegraph

:) Exactly rumors in British and Italian media reports, published before the EF did the trials.
 
Yes I agree the Chinese have numerical supremacy thats why I would go for the cutting edge EF in BVR mode to face them but thats just my choice.

Rest assured, Chinese might not use its entire fleet against even in all out war with India. It need to defend its other boundaries as well which it confronts with Vietnam,Russia,Taiwan,Japan,South Korea,Malaysia,Indonesia, etc(which has border issues with). Lets hope we will be able to take down their birds before they takeoff.

I meant taking down the set targets like airstrips/radar stations/ground attack troops which they have across LAC first. if they start that far then by the time they reach our borders, they will not be able to penetrate deep into our territory. So they will very well start from LAC.

Even as you said EF is better in Dogfighting, tell me in what ratio they get superiority with PLAAF. Here the game is more than just numbers but ground attacks which will keep the enemy guessing and traumatised.

EF is yet to prove its war worthiness!
 
@Sancho there are also reports that the EF actually didnt do that bad in Libya considering


LIBYA: RAF Typhoon drops first bombs in combat


Eurofighter: *News Detail

---------- Post added at 07:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:44 PM ----------

Rest assured, Chinese might not use its entire fleet against even in all out war with India. It need to defend its other boundaries as well which it confronts with Vietnam,Russia,Taiwan,Japan,South Korea,Malaysia,Indonesia, etc(which has border issues with). Lets hope we will be able to take down their birds before they takeoff.

I meant taking down the set targets like airstrips/radar stations/ground attack troops which they have across LAC first. if they start that far then by the time they reach our borders, they will not be able to penetrate deep into our territory. So they will very well start from LAC.

Even as you said EF is better in Dogfighting, tell me in what ratio they get superiority with PLAAF. Here the game is more than just numbers but ground attacks which will keep the enemy guessing and traumatised.

EF is yet to prove its war worthiness!


But where will the battle take place? up in the high skys of the Himalayas where the EF will be king or the low sea level where Rafale turn rate is better?
 
Its not necessary that one repeats the old mistakes again, Indian Aero industry has matured a bit and the MMRCA is an important deal for India, HAL is upgrading its facilities to make full use of the transfer of technology and to be an active manufacturer to aid it in maturing itself to start building India's indigenous aircrafts. TOT will be 100% in the case of EF, but India will be the fifth manufacturer in the consortium and with it it will bring a host of benefits to the aircraft itself, besides the order will revitalise the existing production lines in Europe and shortage of parts will not be an issue due to this in the near future. Indian Aero industry is taking this deal seriously resulting in the delay that we are witnessing. Some glitches will be apparent but the new consortium can gear up rectify it. This deal if used effectively will greatly aid us in our future productions.

The french rafale is most definitely out, so no point discussing it other than if the french give us a way better deal, the EF has proved to be the plane of choice and the price quote is cheaper than rafale. The downside is if this deal does not go through it will result in dassault closing down its production which is sad cos the rafale is a great plane.

So where did you get that message from before even the official declaration of who won the MMRCA deal. :drag:
 
^^^ a little birdy in HAL told me, but thats besides the point, Its a probability with a high percentage going by a few developments.
 
Any other country says this which is not part of Consortium. I will believe it. There are enough evidence/news/articles to support Rafale did better than EF during Libyan operations.


I agree the Rafale did better but the EF can only get better in A2G mode so has a better future in my opinion
 
@Sancho there are also reports that the EF actually didnt do that bad in Libya considering

You might want to check this to get a real picture about it:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-381.html#post2243700


I agree the Rafale did better but the EF can only get better in A2G mode so has a better future in my opinion

The EF can indeed get better, but none of the current partners is ready to pay for upgrades, because they are in a bad financial situation. That's the reason why they want us to be a partner and why they want to sell us their initial T3B orders at reduced costs, because as a partner we would have to take a part of the development costs, in this case of the further developments!
 
You might want to check this to get a real picture about it:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-381.html#post2243700




The EF can indeed get better, but none of the current partners is ready to pay for upgrades, because they are in a bad financial situation. That's the reason why they want us to be a partner and why they want to sell us their initial T3B orders at reduced costs, because as a partner we would have to take a part of the development costs, in this case of the further developments!


But what if the EF consortium win more deals in the future? not to mention the Saudis will place more orders for them so can not the costs be shared in your view?
 
I agree the Rafale did better but the EF can only get better in A2G mode so has a better future in my opinion

So, net net Rafale is better than EF ...Thats the difference. Who i will go for... A finished good product or a product with lot of promises which might take another 4 years extra. Can the IAF afford to wait few extra years. Can we meet the objective of 42 squadrons in near future.. Think bro Think
 
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