Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Solar Flare]

With Rafale IAF might face problem of spare parts. Dessault has not been successful in securing any deals for Rafale and if IAF doesn't select Rafale, the production of Rafale will be stopped. Also the avionics of Rafale is older than EFT. IAF will consider these factors and cost will be decided based on the total life cycle and local production of parts, in which case EFT might be more cheaper and viable.

 

[sancho]

i'll comment only after official release comes. i would try to solve your query.
1. All MiG29 are air superiority fighter.
2. Few Su30 MKIs are air superiority fighter.
3. rest MKIs are multirole. theyes are better ground attack fighter.
4.some mkis are dedicated for brahmos

so please don't worry.

All upgraded Mig 29 and all Su 30s are multi role fighters, with higher focus on A2A capabilities. AllMKIs have the same A2G capability and since the airframe changes are part of the coming upgrade, all MKIs will be able to carry Brahmos or other new missiles in future.
We have to get rid of the old idea of air superioity fighters and ground attack fighters, that's not what IAF wants anymore and that's why they upgrade older single role fighters like the Mig 29 to be useful in strike to, even if it's not it's prime role. That's why they even wanted only twin seat MKIs and FGFAs, since the twin seat version adds advantages mainly in beeing useful in strike or recon roles.

 

[sancho]

With Rafale IAF might face problem of spare parts. Dessault has not been successful in securing any deals for Rafale and if IAF doesn't select Rafale, the production of Rafale will be stopped. Also the avionics of Rafale is older than EFT. IAF will consider these factors and cost will be decided based on the total life cycle and local production of parts, in which case EFT might be more cheaper and viable.

Buddy, you are obviously new to the forum and new to the MMRCA as well. You should go through this thread and get a better idea about EF and Rafale.
Rafale production line "just" for France will go on beyond 2020, while EF production line will be stopped in 2017.
Rafale avionics were constantly upgraded and even the F3+ that is offered to India will get new features, while EF partners don't have the money for any new features. The T3A versions they ordered, will have the same radar, the same avionics, the same engine just like the older versions that are currently in service. The only changes are, a few new weapons, updated software and wirings to add real upgrades later during MLU!

 

[Solar Flare]

EFT Tranche 3 and Rafale F3 will be comparable for A2G capability.

 

[sancho]

EFT Tranche 3 and Rafale F3 will be comparable for A2G capability.

Tranche 3 is splitted into T3A and T3B. The current EF partners will only procure T3As and the only new A2G weapon they will get are lighter Paveway LGBs, nothing else was cleared of funded now. So these EFs will be less A2G capable then our upgraded Mirage 2000s and Mig 29s, unless we pay a heck of money to integrate new weapons. Also as mentioned, British government itself estimates EF to be fully A2G capably only by 2018 and even that only if funds will be cleared, which is not planned at the moment when the partners are cutting their defence budgets big time!

 

[rockstarIN]

Still I strongly feel that, even after getting money is worth for spend theories, Rafale's bad marketing will be again make them losers. M2k Deal and the weapon packages are damn huge.

Why French weapon systems are so costly, even if you compare to American weapons like AIM-120, their MICA is too costly. We are paying 1.9 million per missile (as per old article) whereas AIM-120 is available may be for $900,000/- (2007 rate as pwe wiki is $700,000/-) I think cost wise this is the most advantage for EF.

 

[Shaurya]

I have heard that eurofighter is more effective in producing and providing spare parts and that too at a cheaper rate, rafale on the other hand is very expensive to maintain.. my 2 paise

 

[Jason bourne]

one of the strong reasone which i can find for eurofighter to win is as US planes are dumped they are pitching for eft now and i belive india cant dump US again and again ..my 2 paisa ...

 

[sancho]

Why French weapon systems are so costly, even if you compare to American weapons

Simple!

- higher R&D costs in Europe compared to the US
- higher exchange rates compared to the Dollar
- lower production numbers compared to US weapons
- in terms of MICA IR, was not designed as a SR missile only, but as MR missile with all features of a SR missile

Most of these reasons applies to any European weapon or product, which makes them more expensive andwhat difficult to export.

I have heard that eurofighter is more effective in producing and providing spare parts

You might find these articles interesting:

Grounded! Almost half of RAF's Typhoon jets unable to fly because they don't have the spare parts to fix them

Only 20 jets, which cost £126 million each, available at any given time...

Grounded! Almost half of RAF's Typhoon jets unable to fly because they don't have the spare parts to fix them | Mail Online

RAF strips jets for spare parts: Typhoons torn up for Libya air fleet

The RAF is tearing apart state-of-the-art fighter jets for spare parts to keep warplanes flying over Libya.

Three Typhoons, costing £125million each, are being cannibalised at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire to cover a desperate shortage of parts...

RAF strips jets for spare parts: Typhoons torn up for Libya air fleet | Mail Online

Eurofighter Typhoon: It's EVEN WORSE than we thought

RAF gets just 107 jets – and new budget trainwreck looms...

...The [2008] spares procurement contract does not include penalties for late delivery ...

To compensate, the Department [the MoD] has had to take parts from some of its Typhoon aircraft to make other aircraft available to fly...

Eurofighter Typhoon: It's EVEN WORSE than we thought ? The Register

 

[Black Widow]

All upgraded Mig 29 and all Su 30s are multi role fighters, with higher focus on A2A capabilities. AllMKIs have the same A2G capability and since the airframe changes are part of the coming upgrade, all MKIs will be able to carry Brahmos or other new missiles in future.
We have to get rid of the old idea of air superioity fighters and ground attack fighters, that's not what IAF wants anymore and that's why they upgrade older single role fighters like the Mig 29 to be useful in strike to, even if it's not it's prime role. That's why they even wanted only twin seat MKIs and FGFAs, since the twin seat version adds advantages mainly in beeing useful in strike or recon roles.

I differ, this all Multirole fighter doesn't hold good for me. All airforces in world keep small squadron of Airsuperiority fighters. This is derived from "Teeth and nail Philosophy". Like every empire in world used to keep best frontline fighters with regular soldiers.

I don't see any logic of having all 230+ MKIs Brahmos capable also. Infact it was proposal from Mikhail in MKAS, I don't know if India want it or not.

@All Multirole MiG29: I couldn't find any article which talk about improving ground capability of MiG29. All article talk about "Upgraded radar, engine and range."

 

[Archie]

People need to understand the Defination of ground attack

There are 9 types of mission in ground attack

1. Deep strike against enemy installations
2. Bunker Bursting / Runway Penetration or destruction
3. Suppression of enemy air defence
4. Standoff missile Delivery ( Air launched cruise Missile strike)
5. anti armour operations
6. Close Air support for ground troops
7. Nuclear Delivery
8. Taking out enemy Radar operations
9. Anti ship operations
Being able to carry LGB doesnot mean that an aircraft is good at ground attack

Our Upgraded Mig29 will be able to carry 250 , 500 and 1000 kg LGBs and the fighter will be able to carry out strikes against Enemy Bunkers , runways and other instalations , which it was not able to perform earlier

In the same Manner our current MKI can perform Deep strike missions , SEAD , anti Radar , Bunker Bursting , Runway Penetration , while some sqds can even carry out Anti ship operations , and all MKI are also capable of delivering Nukes
The Planned upgrade of MKI will increase its survivability in all these missions thanks o better radar , avionics , Engine and RCS reduction . While first 50 and Last 42 MKI will also be able to launch Standoff Missiles like Brahmos and Nirbhay

But still both aircrafts cannot perform all the Ground attack Missions
and will be unable to switch from say SEAD and Anti radar mission to say Bunker Bursting and Runway Penetration

Both aircrafts also cannot carry out Close Air support and Anti Armour missions currently performed by Jaguar IS
InShort, while Mig 29 and MKI can replace Mig27 in Ground attack role , but still cannot replace Jaguar

mmrca aircraft will perform all Ground attack Missions including nuclear delivery , except SEAD and Anti Radar operations , these missions will remain with MKI and in future will be performed by FGFA

 

[Black Widow]

People need to understand the Defination of ground attack

There are 9 types of mission in ground attack

1. Deep strike against enemy installations
2. Bunker Bursting / Runway Penetration or destruction
3. Suppression of enemy air defence
4. Standoff missile Delivery ( Air launched cruise Missile strike)
5. anti armour operations
6. Close Air support for ground troops
7. Nuclear Delivery
8. Taking out enemy Radar operations
9. Anti ship operations
Being able to carry LGB doesnot mean that an aircraft is good at ground attack

Our Upgraded Mig29 will be able to carry 250 , 500 and 1000 kg LGBs and the fighter will be able to carry out strikes against Enemy Bunkers , runways and other instalations , which it was not able to perform earlier

In the same Manner our current MKI can perform Deep strike missions , SEAD , anti Radar , Bunker Bursting , Runway Penetration , while some sqds can even carry out Anti ship operations , and all MKI are also capable of delivering Nukes
The Planned upgrade of MKI will increase its survivability in all these missions thanks o better radar , avionics , Engine and RCS reduction . While first 50 and Last 42 MKI will also be able to launch Standoff Missiles like Brahmos and Nirbhay

But still both aircrafts cannot perform all the Ground attack Missions
and will be unable to switch from say SEAD and Anti radar mission to say Bunker Bursting and Runway Penetration

Both aircrafts also cannot carry out Close Air support and Anti Armour missions currently performed by Jaguar IS
InShort, while Mig 29 and MKI can replace Mig27 in Ground attack role , but still cannot replace Jaguar

mmrca aircraft will perform all Ground attack Missions including nuclear delivery , except SEAD and Anti Radar operations , these missions will remain with MKI and in future will be performed by FGFA

Thanks for information, But most of the part I already knew. My point was not about ground attack role, rather Air Superiority.. Like you talked about ground attack, there are many dimension of Air supremacy.

What my focus was I can not buy the statement that all of our top fighter will be multirole. My point was simple that few squadron of MKI will be used for AirSuperiority role.

Multirole is a platform from which we can make good Air Superiority fighter or good ground attack fighter or a fighter which can perform both role...

All major airforces in world have small number of Air superiority fighter in their inventory. So does India...

 

[the rafter]

Until the MoD makes an official announcement you could take this news with a pinch of salt...

Govt to soon close deal for fighter jets - Economy and Politics - livemint.com

New Delhi: The Eurofighter Typhoon may have emerged as the lowest bidder (L1) in the multi-billion dollar deal to procure 126 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF), according to people familiar with the matter.

Mint could not independently verify this.

The two remaining contenders in the deal are likely to be called by the defence ministry on Thursday, these people said on condition of anonymity.
The Eurofighter Typhoon is promoted by European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., or EADS. The other contender vying for the L1 slot is the Rafale, promoted by Dassault SA.

Sitanshu Kar, the defence ministry’s spokesperson, declined to comment.

Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper, both from the US and initially seen to be among the frontrunners, Russia’s Mikoyan MiG-35 and Sweden’s Saab JAS 39 Gripen were the other contenders.

The defence ministry short-listed the Eurofighter and the Rafale after extensive field trials. The shortlist was announced on 29 April. The deal is potentially worth $10 billion, which would make it the single largest defence deal India has ever struck.

Livefist: Eurofighter Lowest Bidder In Indian MMRCA Bid, Sources Tell Newspaper

I'd been very wary all weekend about posting about a very strong rumour that's been doing the rounds specifically for the last five days or so, but now a mainsteam Indian business newspaper (Mint) has a piece today leading with precisely that -- word that the Eurofighter Typhoon has been identified by the Indian MoD as the lowest bidder (L1) in India's monumental $20-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition. Obviously, there is no official confirmation of this, and there is unlikely to be any until a formal announcement is made either way. The competition has been marked by hearsay and rumours right through its life (sometimes, vendors have leapt in to correct them), and I'm only putting this post up since a mainstream newspaper has put it down in print (and that I'd heard the rumour as well). It's delicate right now.

The brief report goes on to say that representatives of EADS Cassidian and Dassault are to be summoned to the MoD on Thursday (Jan 12). So is this it? We'll know soon. Stay tuned.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

when is the result going to be out ?

 

[the rafter]

when is the result going to be out ?

I would hope by January 26th.