Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[SpArK]

Thanks for the reply bro....the bid for EF2000 and Rafale...is it including the price of AESA radar or excluding because both of the countries have not developed AESA radar uptill now..

Includes .

Both have developed AESA and Rafale AESA has moved to production phase,

EF is expected in 2 years time i guess.

 

[proud_indian]

i know spark sancho and many more won't agree with me

But as the things are unfolding euro canards is seems to be the mmrca winner

Eurofighter all the way

 

[angeldemon_007]

Thanks for the reply bro....the bid for EF2000 and Rafale...is it including the price of AESA radar or excluding because both of the countries have not developed AESA radar uptill now..

Yeah its included, in-fact Dassault has started producing Rafale with AESA from 2010...

 

[aanshu001]

whatever people say I prefer Rafale.

1. Once deal done complete reliance no get back.
2. Need less time to master the plane due to similarities with Mirage 2000.
3. believe it or not it will be a possible nuclear platform ( Mirage 2000 was lone platform before missile and MKI was thr).

 

[sancho]

EF is expected in 2 years time i guess.

Two more years for the final prototype, at least 4 more years for an operational version.

i know spark sancho and many more won't agree with me

But as the things are unfolding euro canards is seems to be the mmrca winner

Eurofighter all the way

First of all, Eurocanards is a term that describes the 3 European fighters with canards, Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale, not the EF only.
Secondly, Spark and I do like the EF too, but there are clear reasons why the Rafale is the better choice for India and that's why we support it. EF on the other side is 75% supported by hearsay, PR and media hypes, but when you look at the real capabilities of it and that compare it from the point of view of Indian forces, there is hardly any reason to support it and since you mentioned the "current unflodlings", it seems that you belongs to the 75% as well. See it this way, what actually has happend that makes the EF to the front runner or more suited for Indian forces?

Is it cheaper that Rafale? No it isn't, it is just offered in INDIA (nowhere else it was that close to Rafales price!) with a lower price difference as many people expected, but remains to be the most expensive 4.5 gen fighter!

Does it get more multi role capable? No it doesn't, it still is useful only for air defence and very limited CAS!

Is the AESA radar developed now, are the problems with spare supply solved, does it have more future now, has the UAE rejected the Rafale, did they invited the EF into a competition? No, no, no, no and no...


At the end you are free to have your own opinion of course, but I would suggest to base it on facts, not on media, or manufacturer hypes.

 

[ptltejas]

I think agm 129 like missile could do some thing. or nirbhay with 2000+ km. the most challanging work for nirbhay will be himalaya ranges.

 

[proud_indian]

Two more years for the final prototype, at least 4 more years for an operational version.




First of all, Eurocanards is a term that describes the 3 European fighters with canards, Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale, not the EF only.
Secondly, Spark and I do like the EF too, but there are clear reasons why the Rafale is the better choice for India and that's why we support it. EF on the other side is 75% supported by hearsay, PR and media hypes, but when you look at the real capabilities of it and that compare it from the point of view of Indian forces, there is hardly any reason to support it and since you mentioned the "current unflodlings", it seems that you belongs to the 75% as well. See it this way, what actually has happend that makes the EF to the front runner or more suited for Indian forces?

Is it cheaper that Rafale? No it isn't, it is just offered in INDIA (nowhere else it was that close to Rafales price!) with a lower price difference as many people expected, but remains to be the most expensive 4.5 gen fighter!

Does it get more multi role capable? No it doesn't, it still is useful only for air defence and very limited CAS!

Is the AESA radar developed now, are the problems with spare supply solved, does it have more future now, has the UAE rejected the Rafale, did they invited the EF into a competition? No, no, no, no and no...


At the end you are free to have your own opinion of course, but I would suggest to base it on facts, not on media, or manufacturer hypes.

sancho i have been reading each and every discussion not only on this thread but all the thread ever started on this forum and many more for last 3 years. That is the reason I have just 200 post under my belt as I always read seldom write.

Even I mentioned your name in my post as i always eager to read your arguments and counter arguments in favor of rafale.
Recently I read the thread started by Dr.Somnath (comparison of rafale and eurofighter) closely.

I am very much aware of multirole capabilities of rafale in current configuration. But i am also optimistic about the the capabilities (presently on paper) of eurofighter, such as better radar, better engine and better Industrial Partnership terms(u mentioned somewhere).

I have read so many good things in favor of Eurofighter as well as rafale in last 3 years.

I might be biased towards eurofighter but this is my opinion and i do stand by it.

one question to you

Is it right that we won't be allowed to carry nukes on eurofighter but this is not the case with rafale?

 

[sancho]

Interesting!

The contract of sale of Rafale to the UAE at a critical juncture.

Alain Juppé to conduct a mission the last chance. Is it too late?...


Juppé to ​​maneuver

Blowing the matter to his successor in the Ministry of Defence Gerard Longuet, Alain Juppe was commissioned by Nicolas Sarkozy to lead a double negotiation. Decided after a visit to the Elysee Palace of Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed mid-September, it is first to carry through the discussion of the Rafale to the UAE, as revealed by the daily Les Echos on 11 October.

And second, these negotiations should allow to resell the new Libyan army the 63 Mirage-9 with the Emirati Air Force intends to discard (for gold!) Before buying the Rafale. This information confirmed from a reliable source in Paris was disclosed in early November by the newsletter Lebanese Tactical Report, very knowledgeable about military affairs Arab and Middle Eastern...

Google Übersetzer

 

[sancho]

sancho i have been reading each and every discussion not only on this thread but all the thread ever started on this forum and many more for last 3 years. That is the reason I have just 200 post under my belt as I always read seldom write.
Even I mentioned your name in my post as i always eager to read your arguments and counter arguments in favor of rafale.
Recently I read the thread started by Dr.Somnath (comparison of rafale and eurofighter) closely.

I am very much aware of multirole capabilities of rafale in current configuration. But i am also optimistic about the the capabilities (presently on paper) of eurofighter, such as better radar, better engine and better Industrial Partnership terms(u mentioned somewhere).

As I said, there is nothing wrong with your opinion, I am only saying, don't let yourself confuse from hypes like the current in the media, or wrong infos on the internet and Dr. Somnath comparision was the perfect example for what I said, because most of it was based on estimations only and not on facts.
I would be optimistic about the EF in terms of multi role capabilities as well, IF someone would be ready to pay for the development and integration, but that is not the case, infact they need us to do so, which makes EF more expensive and requires more time to be useful for IAF.
When I see that IAF can induct a fully capable MRCA even in 2013 if necessary and that a comparable EF version will only be available around 2018, I ask myself, why should we limit IAF capabilities for so long and at higher costs (unit + operational + upgrade), just for the hope it could be better than Rafale by then? Rafale is getting better at a much faster pace then EF, so can we only take EFs future capability into account? During the Paris airshow we heared about future upgrades of Rafale with conformal AESA arrays, reduced RCS, increased thrust, possibly even with TVC too. So either we take those capabilities for both fighters to account that will be available for us in 2014/15 when the MMRCAs will be inducted into IAF, or we compare both on future capabilities, which imo doesn't make much sense now by the lack of reliable specs. However, as we all know, the EF is not even close to Rafales capabilities in 2014/15 and that's why EF supporters often use the future capabilities, but if you want the best for IAF, you have took compare on equal basis.

The industrial partnership is not necessarily better, because the French has already the better base in India, but the fact that the EF consortium has bigger companies in their consortium, makes them able to provide a higher ammount of offsets in return. Take the Swiss competition as an example:

"Though, the Eurofighter consortium is said to be leading on the offsets ground with about €6.6 billions while the Rafale International proposition would be around €5 billions.


The rafale offsets offer would include :

A Rafale final assembly line and maintenance center
The production of structural items
The Mica missile production
The development of the Rafale HMD, the OSF-NG and Spectra self defense system
Several othe military or civilian industrial cooperations (CFM-56 engine, Falcon business jets, military and civilian avionics)"

Rafale News: Switzerland, National council approved the new fighter jet acquisition


Imo the only chance for EF to win MMRCA is great industrial package, not the fighter itself, because it offers way too less for way too much money in that field. They compromised on price a lot now to make it more comparable (not better!) to Rafale and I expect a good industrial package as well, to counter the technical shortcomings. But we will have to see if that is enough to beat the better overall package of the French:

- better fighter for Indian forces
- cheaper and easier to operate in IAF
- available industrial base, with JV and co-developments
- more reliable strategic partner for India

one question to you

Is it right that we won't be allowed to carry nukes on eurofighter but this is not the case with rafale?

We are talking about a bomb here, since we have no missiles with nuclear warhead yet and any fighter can integrate such a bomb. Even if the EF partners (especially Germany) would be highly oppose such a move, they can't really do anything against it when we already have the fighter. However, the more interesting question is, would we use the EF in such a role? I highly doubt it, since it is not designed for strikes or true mulit role capability. Strike is only a secondary option for it and we saw it in Libya first hand, that it might be good in escorting such a nuclear strike package, but not necesarrily as the strike fighter. Rafale on the other hand was developed with a dedicated nuclear strike version and one of it's main qualities is the penetration of enemy air space with a low RCS, IR and EM signature, its passive sensor package, the better low level flight capabilities and not to mention the fully capable twin seat version. If IAF has an interest to use the winning MMRCA in any strike role (which is very likely), they only choice can be Rafale, since it is simply in a different class in that area!

 

[ramu]

If India looks vulnerable for a possible attack from China between now and 2016, it is better for India to go for Rafale. Though I like the Euro Fighter more, threat perception may be an important factor in the decision making.

 

[sudhir007]

Livefist: MMRCA Winner Will Emerge Mid-December: IAF Chief

Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne, currently in Bangalore for the station commanders conference, spoke to the press a couple of hours ago, where he was (surprise, surprise) asked about the M-MRCA. Here's what he said: "We're calculating very hard. A lot of work is going on. In another four weeks, we should be able to wrap it up. No matter how long it takes, we have to get it right. There are a lot of complicated figures. But mid-December we should have a good sense of who gets selected."

 

[sancho]

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius and Xav):

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_15.pdf

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_16.pdf



SPECTRA

Such was the confidence of the French aircrews in their new mount that all missions were conducted without any support from dedicated electronic warfare and SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences) assets: thanks to its Spectra state-of-the-art electronic warfare/self-defence suite, the Rafale was able to operate at will in a dangerous environment, against a dense network of deadly surface-to-air missile systems. Even more significant is the fact that the Rafale was able to accurately locate enemy air-defence systems and engage them."


"Such is the quality of the Spectra electronic warfare suite that the Rafale literally disappeared from the radar screens of the Libyan Air Force while performing ‘soft kills’ on the enemy radar systems. Spectra relies on advanced jamming modes and jamming techniques to defeat
hostile weapon systems and to hide the progression and whereabouts of the fighter."

And many more interesting infos on Rafale its techs and weapons!

 

[sancho]

If India looks vulnerable for a possible attack from China between now and 2016, it is better for India to go for Rafale. Though I like the Euro Fighter more, threat perception may be an important factor in the decision making.

Until 2018 buddy, because that is the timeframe the EF needs to be as multi role capable as the Rafale is today! It will be useful to defend our airspace till, but not for any offensive attack at ground targets, be it in SEAD/DEAD, deep strikes, anti ship, not even recon missions could be done with it. Keep in mind, India is not a Gulf state that has these fighters for fun and pride reasons mainly, we need them to defend ourselfs and that's why they have to improve our forces not limit them.
I still do think that the industrial offers of the EF consortium would be interesting for Indian counterparts, but the main priority should be our defending our country and that's where Rafale is simply the better choice.

 

[sudhir007]

Until 2018 buddy, because that is the timeframe the EF needs to be as multi role capable as the Rafale is today! It will be useful to defend our airspace till, but not for any offensive attack at ground targets, be it in SEAD/DEAD, deep strikes, anti ship, not even recon missions could be done with it. Keep in mind, India is not a Gulf state that has these fighters for fun and pride reasons mainly, we need them to defend ourselfs and that's why they have to improve our forces not limit them.
I still do think that the industrial offers of the EF consortium would be interesting for Indian counterparts, but the main priority should be our defending our country and that's where Rafale is simply the better choice.

Hi sancho
can you give some detail what is longer range AAM offer by France with Rafale. aspect MICA which is round 60km only ???
im not count Meteor coze this is common missile for both EF & Rafale

 

[angeldemon_007]

"Though, the Eurofighter consortium is said to be leading on the offsets ground with about €6.6 billions while the Rafale International proposition would be around €5 billions.


The rafale offsets offer would include :

A Rafale final assembly line and maintenance center
The production of structural items
The Mica missile production
The development of the Rafale HMD, the OSF-NG and Spectra self defense system
Several othe military or civilian industrial cooperations (CFM-56 engine, Falcon business jets, military and civilian avionics)"

Are these facts true ? Where did you got these facts ? AESA Radar not included in rafale offset offer ?