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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

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Rafale C (6 Mica EM/IR A2A missiles, 1250L tanks), taking off from Saint Dizier AF Base, ADA over Libya.



Man, imagine if Libya had actually purchased those Rafale fighters France wanted to sell them 2 years ago
 
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Here's additional info on Rafale used in Libya:

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Rafale loaded with AASM bombs

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Rafale C loaded with Mica 6 mica missiles for Air defense


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Rafale loaded with Reco-NG pod

Typical weapon load was :
- 6 Mica EM/IR + 3 supersonic 1250L tanks for the Air defense Rafale
- 6 mica EM/IR + 1 Reco-NG pod + 2 subsonic 2000L tanks for the recce planes.
- 2 mica IR + 4 AASM bombs (250 kg) + 2 subsonic 2000L tank for the CAS planes


Source : Rafale News: Operation Harmattan : First pictures of the Rafale which were engaged in Libya (French Ministry of Defense).
 
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Since Rafale was used before the US & UK Tomahawk cruise missiles struck on Libyan SAM locations, I wonder what RCS signal it generated on the ground radar systems? :undecided:
Especially with the fixed refueling probe, since many here and elsewhere consider it as one of the sources of RCS.:coffee: (Doesn't look like at least in this case)

At 05h45PM, the French MoD revealed that one of those fighters shot at a military libyan vehicule.
Edit 1 : Qatar TV, Al Jazzeera is reporting that at least 4 Libyan tanks would have been detroyed by French fighters.
Edit 2 : It is now confirmed that a Rafale B from the Gascogne squadron has attaked a Libyan tank column with its AASM bombs detroying 4 of them.

Rafale_over_Libya2.jpg
 
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Here's so called DQ's new post:

UK slams Typhoon vying for India’s biggest deal
Published: Sunday, Mar 20, 2011, 22:57 IST
By Suman Sharma | Place: New Delhi | Agency: DNA

Even as India inches closer to finalise its biggest defence deal, United Kingdom’s audit watchdog has come out with a damning report about the Eurofighter Typhoon, which is one of the six contenders for 126 multi-role combat aircraft replacing the ageing MiGs.

As per National Audit Office (NAO), the single-seat fighter aircraft suffers from problems like spares unavailability and rising costs.
The aircraft will not have full multi-role capability for some years, the report said attributing its problems to absence of a single decision-maker at the top and delayed decision making leading to delayed delivery

Also, the Typhoon is still in the process of acquiring air-to-ground attack capability and also the tranche-3B agreement, between its four partner nations is yet to be signed, required for its full final production.

Spares availability for aircraft support and maintenance, as per NAO, is shared by the four partner nations, independent of each other. But the contracts which are collaborative face problems for the supply of spares and repair of equipment, resulting in the inability to meet target for annual flying hours for the aircraft.

The Typhoon programme, which has four partner nations namely UK, Italy, Spain and Germany, was conceived in the 1980s during the Cold War, and has around 70 Typhoons already in service, protecting the air space around the United Kingdom and the Falkland Islands. The aircraft has already been exported to Saudi Arabia and Austria.

The technical evaluation of all the six competing vendors for the IAF’s 126 MMRCA concluded last year, after which the report is with the ministry of defence for review and a decision is awaited.

To reduce costs, the Royal Airforce (RAF) has cut down its Typhoon squadrons and therefore its flying hours, but the department managing the programme has prioritised pilot training on air defence roles which is currently its key task, the report said.

On the funding, the report said, “The department is confident that it can deliver the full range of support for the reduced number of aircraft within the originally approved figure of £13.1 billion. The number of aircraft being bought has fallen by a third and compared on a like for like basis the unit cost of support per aircraft has risen by approximately a third.

Typhoon’s multi-role capability will be further enhanced by planned upgrades and integration of new weapons to make it swing-role - which means the aircraft will have the flexibility to switch between missions while still in the air and so respond to changing operational demands. The multi-role swing-role is an important requirement in the IAF deal tender.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_uk-slams-typhoon-vying-for-indias-biggest-deal_1522292
 
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Does the Rafale have any air to surface missile that is comparable in performance with the Kh-29 or the AGM-65 Maverick?If not is a air to surface missile planned for being integrated on the Rafale except the SCALP.Is the AS-30L compatible with the Rafale?
 
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Ajai Shukla: Antony, pull the plug on the MMRCA

Indian Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshall PV Naik, has surprised everyone by declaring more than once that the ministry of defence was just days away from deciding the winner of the keenly-watched global tender to sell the IAF 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 42,000 crore. Naik was evidently hustling his boss, Defence Minister AK Antony, into an early decision, illustrating how narrow service considerations often trump the national interest. For Antony, who has indicated that the contract would be finalised before March 2012, these are the last few months to reconsider what will be a giant white elephant.

Antony cannot be swept away by the fighter pilot community’s simplistic argument that credible defence against China and Pakistan depends upon building up 42 fighter squadrons, up from the 32 squadrons that currently exist today. Instead, he must take a broader view, considering three key questions. Firstly, is victory in the air in modern warfare about mere aircraft numbers or about capabilities? Increasingly, digital networking and command and surveillance systems are significant force multipliers, allowing one squadron to do the job of three. But those networks involve top-secret source codes that no developer parts with, not even for Rs 42,000 crore. If the IAF has to be, as it often insists, a fully integrated and networked force, it must develop its own fighters, complete with network systems.
Given that truth, and India’s evolving ability to build its own fighters, Antony’s second question should be: given our limits on defence spending, would it not make better long-term sense to invest the MMRCA billions in enhancing our flimsy infrastructure for aeronautical development? Would wisdom not lie in accepting a 32-squadron air force for some years in order to develop ourselves as a comprehensive aeronautical engineering powerhouse? Beyond the lip service paid to indigenisation, the 2011-12 defence budget allocates a mere Rs 4,628 crore for the military’s capital expenditure on R&D; while allocating Rs 27,322 crore for the capital purchase of aircraft and aero engines. The project to develop an Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), with custom-designed plug-ins to the IAF’s command networks, has so far been allocated a paltry Rs 90 crore.
A $10 billion infusion would fund a world-class infrastructure base of academic and training institutions; facilities for fundamental research; the upgrading of our ancillary aerospace industrial base; the building of test ranges; and adequately-funded programmes to plug our capability gaps, especially in aircraft engines, radars and missiles. A decade down the line, with the AMCA reaching completion, India would never again look abroad for a medium fighter. With the evident success of the indigenous Tejas programme reinforced by the forthcoming experience of co-developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Russia, India’s aircraft designers and manufacturers need to be supported with all the financial muscle that the MoD can muster.

Thirdly, Antony must consider the question of insurance. And he should ensure with his US counterpart that, if our security environment suddenly deteriorates 3-5 years down the road, the IAF would have access to a better combat aircraft than any of the MMRCA candidates. By then the 5th-generation US-built F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will be entering operational service. Unlike the 4th-generation MMRCA contenders, the F-35 will remain a cutting-edge fighter for another four decades.

Like children running heedlessly towards a cliff, the MoD and the IAF seem deaf to all warnings, even to the multiple tales of woe emerging about the MMRCA contenders. In a report commissioned by the UK MoD (“Management of the Typhoon Project”, released on 28 February, 2011) the British CAG points out that the Eurofighter Typhoon, which was conceived as an air-to-air fighter, will have full ground attack capability only by 2018. “Problems with spares availability” has meant that the Typhoon “has had to take parts from some of its Typhoon aircraft to make other aircraft available to fly”. Despite that, the Typhoon has fallen 13 per cent short of its target in annual flying hours, permitting only limited training by RAF pilots. Between Nov 09 and Aug 10, just “15 per cent of pilots had sufficient training hours to perform tasks beyond air defence”. The report says that it will take another five years for the situation to be remedied.

It says something about the IAF’s attitude towards indigenisation that it takes careful cognisance of Indian CAG reports critical of homegrown systems like the Dhruv and the Tejas. But when it comes to a foreign aircraft, the criticism is not taken seriously.

It is this tolerance for foreign folly that has made India the world’s largest arms importer, having bought a staggering 9 per cent of all weaponry sold internationally between 2006–10 (figures: Stockholm International Peace Research Institute). Unwilling to back our own defence industry, the MoD seems comfortable with the idea of bailing out others. Earlier this month, Sweden’s defence minister announced that, without an Indian or Brazilian order, his air force would not develop the new Gripen fighter till at least 2018. But, trailing his coattails before New Delhi, he declared that it could be done by 2013-14 if a foreign order came in.

It is not too late for Antony to pull the plug on the MMRCA. The cancellation of that tender will be infused with a hugely positive buzz if it is accompanied by a public declaration to invest significant funds into fast-tracking the AMCA project. This single step would galvanise India’s aerospace sector, including the industrial eco-system that must underpin fighter development. For Antony, it would be a personal triumph, burnishing his nationalistic credentials and highlighting his emergence as a defence minister with the vision to end India’s dependence on foreign arms purchases.
 
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for the last few weeks , the voices has slowed down..


has india selected MIG-35 ?
 
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A $10 billion infusion would fund a world-class infrastructure base of academic and training institutions; facilities for fundamental research; the upgrading of our ancillary aerospace industrial base; the building of test ranges; and adequately-funded programmes to plug our capability gaps, especially in aircraft engines, radars and missiles.

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Firstly, is victory in the air in modern warfare about mere aircraft numbers or about capabilities? Increasingly, digital networking and command and surveillance systems are significant force multipliers, allowing one squadron to do the job of three. But those networks involve top-secret source codes that no developer parts with, not even for Rs 42,000 crore.
This sounds great but setting up these infrastructure and all, alone would take 5-6 years. Its true we are spending too much on this and we need to develop our own fighter jets and that number is not that important and quality is important.
But we must not forget that most of our fleet comprise of old russian planes many of whom even crossed their maximum service life. We are also upgrading mirage and jaguars to increase their life.
Also we have a very slow production rate.

Now considering this all, think we would definitely need these MMRCA. Not to mention IAF is asking not much, if you go by the equation that adding strength of Chinese AF and PAF, then asking for just 45 squadron is a reasonable request. You have to have a definite number of fighters.

Also, AMCA project has just started, they will receive around 2 billion$ once it is sanctioned and nobody said that will be it. If they will need more, then they will get it.

I think after LCA all the parties, ie. govt., IAF and HAL/ADA are on the same page and even IN is supporting AMCA.
 
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Even though i mentioned it in my post , but either you didn't read or ,turned a blind eye to ignore facts...

Not really, I just have no time to explain you the same things again and again, especially because it's evident that you refuse the facts just with false assumtions.

Locating a threat = having basic direction and bearing, which is neccesary to deploy countermesures like chaff, flare, or jamming.

GEOlocating a threat = having accurate target data, that can be used to guide weapons.

The early is nothing special and any EWS can do it, the latter needs additional sensor infos (interferometry for example) and like the official sources confirmed, the F16 Block 60 with the Northrop EWS has that capability to GEOlocate, while the Raytheon EWS on F16IN don't have it! You disagree here to the sources you provided yourself to back your earlier points, just to not admit that Rafale has an advantage here! :disagree:


Search for the summary of the carnegy report that I made, which stated several points of the operational requirements of IAF, often with references to the MMRCA RFP. Or the chindits article that I provided here several times, that also is refering to the RFP, or the latest RFI for stand off weapons, which confirms once again what I stated all the time, IAF is looking to increase their strike capability and MMRCA will have a focus for this role as well!

The RFP also makes clear the importance of ToT and offsets, which makes the Europeans of course favourable, especially when you have only 1 country to negotiate with like it's the case with Rafale, instead of several like it's the case with EF, or Gripen.

IAF officials numerously stated that they prefer fast induction and licence production of the MMRCAs, which makes Rafale the obvious choice again. IAF has long and good history with Dassault fighters and French licence productions, the commonality to Mirage 2000s makes it easier to train pilots and ground crews, also eases maintence and logistics. Not to forget that Dassault is offering us fast production of Rafales sins 2007 and that the Rafale F3+ is the first that will be ready developed and in operational service in the version that is offered in MMRCA. All these fits perfectly to the IAF requirement, because we can induct Rafale early, fast and with ease!

IN issued an RFP for a carrier fighter, most likely for a CATOBAR carrier, with only Rafale, F18SH beeing developed for this and operational. The advantage here should be a nobrainer!
 
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I agree! But can the media do? Its the MoD thats taking so much time and no press release of any progress, the media will speculate or sell rumors.

I take that actually as professional behaviour of IAF, because they don't give out these infos to the media, which of course will be important to the loosing vendors as well. I don't even expect an official reason why some would be shortlisted and why some are not, but at least we can get a hint in which direction the competition goes.
Media wants to sell their news, that's why they speculate. Some of these unnamed sources might have good points, but most of them are made up just to hype their articles, that's why we have to take the news carfully and check how reliable they are. Especially in MMRCA, we saw that several vendors use the media for their own PR, or even spread wrong infos about others.


Since Rafale was used before the US & UK Tomahawk cruise missiles struck on Libyan SAM locations, I wonder what RCS signal it generated on the ground radar systems? :undecided:
Especially with the fixed refueling probe, since many here and elsewhere consider it as one of the sources of RCS.:coffee: (Doesn't look like at least in this case)

The fact that Rafale was used to enter their airspace before CM strikes and without dedicated EW aircrafts like the F18 Growlers, showes the capability of SPECTRA and that the French forces are more than confident about it. The opponent fighters might not be an issue and they have no AWACS either, but the ground radars and SAMs are a threat for any fighter, that's why the US deployed the Growlers and F16 CJs, or UK used their Tornados, to have capable protection in SEAD, although they are using anti radiation missiles from longer range.
In terms of RCS you also have to keep in mind, that the Rafales so far were deployed from bases in France, that's why they had to carry so many fuel tanks, which obviously increased the RCS.

Also interesting, Rafale is used in recce, air defense and strike missions, while EF is only deployed in air defense and the Tornados makes the strikes. Just like the F18 Growlers are deployed only for EW and SEAD, while F15s are in air defense.

So much for multi role capabilites!
 
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F-18 and Eurofighter was never considered earlier for MMRCA Tender : Offical


What could be quite a revelation ,Indian air force official have informed idrw.org ,that until end of 2005 , F-18 and Euro-fighter was never considered for MMRCA Tender since they did not fit into air forces requirements then , Initially Air force wanted aircraft in medium weight category that included offers from French on Mirage-2000-5 ,Lockheed martin with their F-16 C/D and Russian offer of upgraded Mig-29SMT .

But opening of the Tender to multiple vendors by then Defence Minister Pranab Mukherji in UPA-1 Government insured that tender became larger ,and Medium Weight category was no longer mandatory since heavier class fighter aircrafts entered the race .

Official also told that opening of the tender surely lead to further delays and set back whole process by 5 years ,which was considerable amount of time lost to procure aircraft’s for a shrinking air force fleet , he also pointed out that Request for Proposal (RFP) actually favoured single engine fighters due to its emphasis on life cycle costs,since life cycle costs of a single engine fighter are substantially lower than that of twin engine fighter.

With Pak-FA and AMCA 5th generation fighter deal all done and work on them have already began and IAF is all set to procure and operate them by turn of this decade , official admitted that MMRCA tender and the aircraft’s have lost all its shine and will be a second fiddle to MKI and PAK-FA in near future in IAF fleet .

F-18 and Eurofighter was never considered earlier for MMRCA Tender : Offical
 
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