Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Contrarian]

I suggest to go for rafale as 126 + 74 as optional and ~100 MiG35 to quickly fill the numbers.

Mate, buying 2 types of planes is the biggest folly that the MoD can commit! IAF already has a huge variety of planes that are difficult to maintain. Commonality of planes leads to savings on infrastructure and logistics chain as well as enhances the operational readiness.

Even if you say that the MiG 35 is built up from the MiG 29 as a base, it still induces more problems. Better to go with one plane all the way.

And this is when IAF is spending big bucks to upgrade the infrastructure in about 30 of its airbases. IAF bases are by and large specialist bases, that means that they cater to a small variety of aircrafts as opposed to general bases which can take care(including repair, etc) of all the aircrafts in IAF. IAF is spending a lot of money now in the first phase to convert these 30 bases to general bases as well as connect all the airbases with an optical fibre network.

Having said that even im worried that in order to make everyone happy, MoD might just buy 2 planes!

 

[nitesh]

Sir your point is correct that was just my thinking if the numbers decline fast then expected. But in that case I would think that IAF will go for Su 35 to just augment the fleet.

 

[IceCold]

Yes mate, the relations are growing rapidly, but insofar we have not ordered anything that would jeopardize a good chunk of main fighting capability. The MoD still has a good chunk of old age bureaucrats that still think that American defence equipment should be kept limited and to not allow the leverage the US would have over India if their planes are bought in such quantities even when considering that the entire plane would be made here from scratch after an initial period-barring the radar.

On a technical note, the tender is for an M-MRCA, whereas the F/A-18 is an H-MRCA right in the same category as the Su-30MKI. What IAF requires is a light weight complement to the Su-30MKI. F/A-18 is of the same size, is a fuel guzzler has one of the highest operating costs-and the RFP clearly specifies that life cycle costs would clearly play an important part this time. This is the first time that life cycle costs are being considered by the MoD.
Its in the same class as the Su-30, so it serves no purpose.


Our Carriers dont have catapults. That means that they cannot operate the F/A-18E/F. Moreover they are also not of the required tonnage and size to operate such large planes in quantities that are required. For the IN, F/A-18E/F is a nogo.

I rather think Rafale has more of a chance than the F/A-18. Personally, i think Rafale has the max scope while F-16 has the minimum.

You have valid points Malay, but then again why would the navy show interest into something that cannot be operated from what they have in their inventory? Also if i remember correctly Indian specification for their MRCA role included an AESA radar and Rafale does not have it, its still under development and will take some time before gets finally inducted where as the F-18 has everything operational and war tested. F-16 well yes certainly but then again F-16s has seen its glory days and while one could argue over the avionic package that has been offered with it, but what about the airframe that is on the verge of completion of its life cycle?

 

[nitesh]

You have valid points Malay, but then again why would the navy show interest into something that cannot be operated from what they have in their inventory? Also if i remember correctly Indian specification for their MRCA role included an AESA radar and Rafale does not have it, its still under development and will take some time before gets finally inducted where as the F-18 has everything operational and war tested. F-16 well yes certainly but then again F-16s has seen its glory days and while one could argue over the avionic package that has been offered with it, but what about the airframe that is on the verge of completion of its life cycle?

No other contender is having an operational AESA apart from USA, rafale has already flown with RDY (version I don't remember) AESA as well as ZUKH in russian inventory is also working.

It's not only about the capabilities but till what level the vendor want to share the details. Going by the past record french and russians are the best bet.

 

[IceCold]

No other contender is having an operational AESA apart from USA.

Exactly and that is why i said that F-18 seems to be the valid choice.

It's not only about the capabilities but till what level the vendor want to share the details. Going by the past record french and russians are the best bet.

I wouldn't argue over it as your points hold some valid ground but then again India has always in the end being able to turn the tide of the deal into her favorwhy would this be any different? I agree that US when it comes down to sharing can hold a few things back but this is certainly not that big of an issue which cannot be solved, but to highlight it and compromise with the best is certainly not advisable. Russians have nothing to offer. India already has the best of what Russia has to offer SU-30MKI, the MIGs are being upgraded which if not the same but close to same will bring it on par with the Mig-35. So nothing new there.

 

[su-47]

US F-18s have only one real major advantage and thats AESA. If we sign the deal just for the AESA, it'll be a terrible folly, since europeans and israelis will also bring out their AESA's in the near future. Rafale or typhoon armed with AESA will be much deadlier than F-18s.

considering that the cost of f-18s are not much less than that of the rafale, and that the only edge F-18 has over rafale is AESA, i dont see why IAf should get F-18s.

 

[IceCold]

US F-18s have only one real major advantage and thats AESA. If we sign the deal just for the AESA, it'll be a terrible folly, since europeans and israelis will also bring out their AESA's in the near future. Rafale or typhoon armed with AESA will be much deadlier than F-18s.

considering that the cost of f-18s are not much less than that of the rafale, and that the only edge F-18 has over rafale is AESA, i dont see why IAf should get F-18s.

F-18 is a combat proven jet while the rest that you mentioned has yet to see a combat. Also AESA is not just an issue its a very important factor that has to be considered into account. Yes an AESA radar will finally join both EF and Rafale however that does not mean that the jets will become more deadlier then the F-18. F-18 has a class of its own and considering your adversaries, it will be the most advance and deadly piece of machine south Asia has yet to see.

 

[nitesh]

To

Ice and SU

Seems like typhoon and rafale are the only good options left. As gripen is again dependent on US a lot. But any way we can only speculate.

 

[nitesh]

I think this might be of interest:

EADS N.V. - EADS Test & Services installs test systems at the Indian Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to support combat aircraft development

 

[su-47]

To

Ice and SU

Seems like typhoon and rafale are the only good options left. As gripen is again dependent on US a lot. But any way we can only speculate.

exactly. from here, with the limited amount of information available to us, we cant do much but speculate. all the relevant info for decision making must be being analysed at this very moment.

 

[nitesh]

I think more or less it is going to be rafale as the snecma is being chosen as the partner for help in kaveri. what u guys say?

 

[Energon]

On a technical note, the tender is for an M-MRCA, whereas the F/A-18 is an H-MRCA right in the same category as the Su-30MKI. What IAF requires is a light weight complement to the Su-30MKI. F/A-18 is of the same size, is a fuel guzzler has one of the highest operating costs-and the RFP clearly specifies that life cycle costs would clearly play an important part this time. This is the first time that life cycle costs are being considered by the MoD.
Its in the same class as the Su-30, so it serves no purpose.

The Flanker series of aircraft are considerably larger and heavier than the F/A-18 E/F. Even the Super hornet's larger predecessor, the F-14 Tomcat, a behemoth in its own right along with the USAF's F-15s fall shy of the weight and size comparison against the Flankers.
Undoubtedly the Super hornet is largest of the aircrafts being fielded in this MRCA competition; but I'm not really sure it can be categorized alongside the Su-30MKI.
I completely agree with you on the fuel consumption, operational costs and general serviceability being the most critical deciding factors. If in this regards, the Rafale is superior, then it will certainly stand a better chance. Although the IAF has always held the Mirage2000 in high regards when it comes to these factors, I just hope they don't automatically assume that the same will be true for the Rafale. The latter is in a completely different category and should be considered a brand new and radically different platform that requires an evaluation from the ground up.

Our Carriers dont have catapults. That means that they cannot operate the F/A-18E/F. Moreover they are also not of the required tonnage and size to operate such large planes in quantities that are required. For the IN, F/A-18E/F is a nogo.

I rather think Rafale has more of a chance than the F/A-18. Personally, i think Rafale has the max scope while F-16 has the minimum.

I believe Boeing has conducted simulations to determine that the super hornet can in fact be operated from a Ski Deck. That being said, I still don't think the IN can possibly field this aircraft because I'm assuming that the simulation was based on a highly stripped down version of the Super hornet which would impede its operational capacity akin to what has happened with the Su-33. As a side note, I think it is really important that the IN start looking into acquiring the catapult system for its two new planned carriers, not only to enable the possible launch of fully loaded Rafales or Super hornets, but more importantly for AEWs.

 

[Contrarian]

You have valid points Malay, but then again why would the navy show interest into something that cannot be operated from what they have in their inventory?

I dont really think the Navy has shown interest in it mate. The navy is not going to get it in either case. The Navy already has gotten new MiG 29K's and will in all likelihood get the N-LCA as well. They dont need it. Plus if anything Rafale-M is a far better choice if the Navy wanted a carrier capable plane.

Also if i remember correctly Indian specification for their MRCA role included an AESA radar and Rafale does not have it, its still under development and will take some time before gets finally inducted where as the F-18 has everything operational and war tested.

Yeah, AESA is a must, Rafale and Eurofighter both have AESA radars in its final versions. They would be fielded soon. Remember the first planes will also start comming in around 2012,much before that both Typhoon and Rafale would have their AESA's operational.

F-16 well yes certainly but then again F-16s has seen its glory days and while one could argue over the avionic package that has been offered with it, but what about the airframe that is on the verge of completion of its life cycle?

Yes, there are two basic reasons for not selecting F-16's(per me):
One, as you said, is that F-16 has seen its glory days and the USAF is already planning to phase it out. There is no point in getting a plane that is planned to be replaced soon by the country that made it.

The second, is that even though LM has guarenteed that this plane is far different from the one that PAF operates, i doubt the MoD or the IAF would want a plane who's in's & out's are known to PAF. You cant really change the airframe that much, you can change the interiors.

 

[Energon]

I think more or less it is going to be rafale as the snecma is being chosen as the partner for help in kaveri. what u guys say?

Yes, I think the Rafale with the Snecma technical package is currently the front runner. The Eurofighter Typhoon is far too expensive and the Mig35 is out on account of numerous problems.

The F-18 E/F super hornet is still close and may just end up taking this away given the aircrafts technical proficiency and most of all the political and economic benefits associated with this purchase. The only impediment of course is the US Congress' EUA clause; but I have a feeling they'll be willing to be highly ameliorative with this when engaging in a strictly bilateral agreement with India without third party involvement.

 

[Contrarian]

F-18 is a combat proven jet while the rest that you mentioned has yet to see a combat. Also AESA is not just an issue its a very important factor that has to be considered into account. Yes an AESA radar will finally join both EF and Rafale however that does not mean that the jets will become more deadlier then the F-18. F-18 has a class of its own and considering your adversaries, it will be the most advance and deadly piece of machine south Asia has yet to see.

Nah mate, as of now there are only 2 advantages that the F-18 brings:
1. Operational AESA
2. The range of munitions that come with the F-18.

While the French, Eurofighter consortium, as well as the Russians are near to fielding their own AESA, there is little incentive to take risks with the US. I forgot Israel has an operational AESA as well that is on offer to us-the El/M 2052.

The only thing India would be missing out is the munitions like HARM, etc that come with the F-18.

F-18 also has a dated frame, its operating costs are MUCH higher compared to Rafale, like i said before, for the first time India is considering the life cycle costs as a major factor.

Even Rafale or the Typhoon would be the most advanced and deadly piece of machine South Asia has yet to see. This ranges from the date of the design/airframe to all aspect stealth. The Rafale is newer as is the Typhoon. The reason i think that Rafale will win is that what IAF really needs is a plane that is really good in a2g, and Typhoon lacks in that department while Rafale is pretty good, and yes, the F-18 is great in that dept as well but consider the points mentioned above.

The plane has to be a complement to the Su-30MKI, not an equal. The Su-30 is an H-MRCA, as is the F-18. What IAF needs is an M-MRCA.