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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

For god sake can be stop repeating this nonsense again and again in the hope that it will turn true ?

If we had got 100% ToT for 126 Rafale, you would have already seen a contract for that by now.

The very fact that we are hunting for a 100% MII contact for a new aircraft should tell you by now that Rafale deal fell through due to lack o ToT for a reasonable price.

The new contract is for a single engine aircraft only because there is no scope of going for EuroFighter after selecting 36 Rafale and LM and SAAB has already made MII offers when Dassault screwed up the deal.

All this lies and deceit makes me believe France never had any intention of a 100% ToT on Rafale. At least not for the price negotiated.

In the current scenario, at best Rafale will act like a Plan B if PAK FA fails to deliver on time.

There is no new contract.

The MMRCA has been cancelled but will be implemented step by step.
The reason it is not yet implemented is the following:

Dassault to make its price needed the HAL price. But given the leaks in India nobody wanted to show its proposal to HAL in order to prevent it to go to the competitors. So the HAL part of the proposal was not valued, and instead Dassault gave the number of hours that the Indians valued themselves. And HAL said after that he needs 2.7 times more hours which made everything collapse.

The problem that this posed is that opponents said that likely the Rafale was not the L1 due to the increase in price. Indeed this re-evaluation was not made for the Typhoon, since negotiations have ceased. It is likely there would have been the same inflation but bad faith was possible. And if the contract had been past it was challengeable in court. This explains the delays and the final decision of MODI to cancelled MMRCA and to start a new process.
 
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There is no new contract.

The MMRCA has been cancelled but will be implemented step by step.
The reason it is not yet implemented is the following:

Dassault to make its price needed the HAL price. But given the leaks in India nobody wanted to show its proposal to HAL in order to prevent it to go to the competitors. So the HAL part of the proposal was not valued, and instead Dassault gave the number of hours that the Indians valued themselves. And HAL said after that he needs 2.7 times more hours which made everything collapse.

The problem that this posed is that opponents said that likely the Rafale was not the L1 due to the increase in price. Indeed this re-evaluation was not made for the Typhoon, since negotiations have ceased. It is likely there would have been the same inflation but bad faith was possible. And if the contract had been past it was challengeable in court. This explains the delays and the final decision of MODI to cancelled MMRCA and to start a new process.

Typical govt company. This wouldn't have happened a private co was leading the project
 
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For god sake can be stop repeating this nonsense again and again in the hope that it will turn true ?

If we had got 100% ToT for 126 Rafale, you would have already seen a contract for that by now.

The very fact that we are hunting for a 100% MII contact for a new aircraft should tell you by now that Rafale deal fell through due to lack o ToT for a reasonable price.

The new contract is for a single engine aircraft only because there is no scope of going for EuroFighter after selecting 36 Rafale and LM and SAAB has already made MII offers when Dassault screwed up the deal.


All this lies and deceit makes me believe France never had any intention of a 100% ToT on Rafale. At least not for the price negotiated.

In the current scenario, at best Rafale will act like a Plan B if PAK FA fails to deliver on time.

The single engine contract is independent from Rafale.
 
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There is no new contract.

The MMRCA has been cancelled but will be implemented step by step.
The reason it is not yet implemented is the following:

Dassault to make its price needed the HAL price. But given the leaks in India nobody wanted to show its proposal to HAL in order to prevent it to go to the competitors. So the HAL part of the proposal was not valued, and instead Dassault gave the number of hours that the Indians valued themselves. And HAL said after that he needs 2.7 times more hours which made everything collapse.

The problem that this posed is that opponents said that likely the Rafale was not the L1 due to the increase in price. Indeed this re-evaluation was not made for the Typhoon, since negotiations have ceased. It is likely there would have been the same inflation but bad faith was possible. And if the contract had been past it was challengeable in court. This explains the delays and the final decision of MODI to cancelled MMRCA and to start a new process.

If you don't mind, I will cut through the BS,

This is the crux of your argument.

1. Dassault gave the number of hours that the Indians valued themselves.

2. HAL said after that he needs 2.7 times more hours


What this really means is YOU VALUED HAL's cost at "X" WITHOUT consulting HAL.

HAL said it wants "2.7X".

E.g. You told HAL that you will give it Rs. 100 per hour of work.

HAL said , it wants Rs. 270 per hour of work.

So you translated that for the ignorant public as Rs. 100 per hour of work, but HAL needs 2.7 Hours more :lol:


Only the GoI saw through this BS and called your bluff, cancelled the MMRCA an started a new RFP. This is the gist of the matter.

Way I see it is that non of this is HAL's fault or MoD's fault.


Dassault should have made it work with HAL since they were the one who proposed to the GoI and spoke on behalf of HAL as if they were doing HAL some favour. Sorry to be so blunt.

Typical govt company. This wouldn't have happened a private co was leading the project

You are a Moron.

Can you read ? The problem was not with HAL, it was with the foreign companies who refused to trust HAL fearing leaks nor consult HAL for its production costs.

The Irony is that French are famous for leaks as proved by the Scorpene deal which the Navy now has to clean up.

The single engine contract is independent from Rafale.

Nothing is independent. Everything is interrelated and Inter dependent. What a naive thing to say.
 
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If you don't mind, I will cut through the BS,

This is the crux of your argument.

1. Dassault gave the number of hours that the Indians valued themselves.

2. HAL said after that he needs 2.7 times more hours


What this really means is YOU VALUED HAL's cost at "X" WITHOUT consulting HAL.

HAL said it wants "2.7X".

E.g. You told HAL that you will give it Rs. 100 per hour of work.

HAL said , it wants Rs. 270 per hour of work.

So you translated that for the ignorant public as Rs. 100 per hour of work, but HAL needs 2.7 Hours more :lol:


Only the GoI saw through this BS and called your bluff, cancelled the MMRCA an started a new RFP. This is the gist of the matter.

Way I see it is that non of this is HAL's fault or MoD's fault.


Dassault should have made it work with HAL since they were the one who proposed to the GoI and spoke on behalf of HAL as if they were doing HAL some favour. Sorry to be so blunt.



You are a Moron.

Can you read ? The problem was not with HAL, it was with the foreign companies who refused to trust HAL fearing leaks nor consult HAL for its production costs.

The Irony is that French are famous for leaks as proved by the Scorpene deal which the Navy now has to clean up.



Nothing is independent. Everything is interrelated and Inter dependent. What a naive thing to say.

You apparently can't understand simple statements.
 
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On the contrary, I can translate BS into simple statements which many find hard to swallow.
So in your theory Dassault have made a lot of mistake resulting in the sale of 36 Rafale. We will see how the situation is evolving.:sarcastic:
 
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So in your theory Dassault have made a lot of mistake resulting in the sale of 36 Rafale. We will see how the situation is evolving.:sarcastic:

Mistake or not is for Dassault for decide in their best interest. How can I make that judgement call ?

What a foolish conclusion.
 
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I think it was Dassault's call not to provide critical technologies to India, at the cost of 200+ further orders.(money was not a problem)

India is going for single engine jet fighter for 200+ or 300 provided we get full ToT. plus LCA programme, hence no further Rafale orders.

Dassult is waiting in sidelines, expecting more orders if single engine jet OEM does not provide full technology.

my two cents..

@Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil
 
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Rafael and Reliance Defence negotiate systems provision for Indian Rafale

  • 04 OCTOBER, 2016
  • BY: ARIE EGOZI
  • TEL AVIV


Rafael and its partner, Reliance Defence, are negotiating a contract to supply the Indian air force with Israeli-developed systems for its Dassault Rafale fighter.

The negotiations focus on the Rafael Litening 5 targeting pod, the Spice family of guided weapons, and either the advanced Python-5 or Derby air-to-air missiles.

These discussions follow a 23 September announcement that India and France had signed a €7.75 billion ($8.69 billion) deal for 36 Rafales.

The Indian air force has previously equipped some of its existing fighter fleet with Rafael systems, and Indian delegations that have visited Israel in recent months have said they want to have these systems on the Rafale.

getasset.aspx


Dassault

In March, Indian company Reliance Defence and Rafael set up a joint venture to develop air-to-air missiles, smart weapons and advanced payloads, based at Dhirubhai Ambani Land Systems Park in Pithampur, India.

Rafael refused to comment on the current effort in India.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...ance-defence-negotiate-systems-provis-430033/
 
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Ministry of Defence
18-November, 2016 19:01 IST
Procurement of Fighter Aircraft

An Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) along with Aircraft & Weapons Package Supply Protocols and Technical Arrangement were signed with the French Government on 23rd September, 2016 for procurement of 36 Rafale aircraft in fly-away condition. The deliveries will commence from September, 2019.
 
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Rediff.com » News » 4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party
4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party
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September 23, 2016 09:47 IST


Ajai Shukla explains why there is considerable discomfort within the defence ministry about the Rafale deal.

15lead1.jpg


On a warm Delhi evening on April 3, 2015, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had left his South Block office and was driving to catch his flight to Goa, when his mobile phone received an incoming call from the Prime Minister's Office.

Could he come in urgently, an official asked, the PM would like to talk briefly.

When Parrikar reached the PMO, Prime Minister Narendra Modi sprang a bombshell.

Parrikar was told that, on Modi's forthcoming trip to Paris, he and French President Francois Hollande would announce an agreement for India to buy 36 Rafale fighters.

During Modi's nine-day tour of France, Germany and Canada, Parrikar would have to manage the media and field the inevitable questions.

Taken aback, Parrikar still caught his flight to Goa. Over the next week, he batted loyally on behalf of his PM, publicly defending a decision he neither understood nor agreed with, that was taken over his head, and that senior ministry of defence officials warned him would be difficult to defend.

Today, 17 months later, most pledges that Parrikar issued in defence of Modi's Rafale agreement have proven incorrect.

He told the Press Trust of India in Goa that all 36 Rafale fighters would join the IAF within two years; in fact more than six years will elapse before the final delivery is made.

He repeated the Modi-Hollande undertaking that the price would be 'on terms that would be better than' Dassault's bid in the now cancelled tender for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. It now turns out that India will pay a vastly higher price.

But Parrikar, through 17 months of defending a deal that was not his, has become the face of the Rafale.

And after Friday, when he and his visiting French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian sign an inter-governmental agreement for 36 Rafales, Parrikar -- and not Modi -- will answer for the purchase.

There is disquiet within the MoD about the acquisition, with officials concerned about subsequent scrutiny by Constitutional authorities like the Comptroller and Auditor General. Their key worries are as follows.

Exorbitant cost

A key element in price negotiations is 'benchmarking', or comparing Dassault's price with other contracts involving the same fighter.

With India, Dassault had already established a benchmark in the MMRCA acquisition, where it had quoted a price for 18 fully built Rafales, just like the 36 fighters that India is now buying.

Speaking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, Parrikar had revealed Rafale's bid for 126 fighters, stating: 'When you talk of 126 (Rafale) aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore' -- Rs 715 crore per fighter after adding all costs.

Now Parrikar would be buying 36 Rafale fighters for Euro 7.8 billion (over Rs 58,000 crore), which is over Rs 1,600 crore per aircraft -- more than double the earlier price.

True, the current contract includes elements that were not there in the 126 fighter MMRCA tender -- including a superior weapons package with Meteor missiles; and performance-based logistics, which bind Dassault to ensure that a stipulated percentage of the Rafale fleet remains combat-ready at all times. The percentage is guessed to be about 75 to 80 per cent, an unchallenging target for Western fighter types.

Even deducting Euro 2.8 billion for the weapons and PBL from the anticipated Euro 7.8 billion contract amount, a Euro 5 billion (over Rs 37,000 crore) price tag for 36 Rafales puts the ticker price of each at over Rs 1,000 crore.

For that the IAF can buy two-and-a-half Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters -- a heavy fighter as capable as the Rafale.

Variation in fighter types

IAF logisticians, who already struggle to maintain, repair and support six different types of fighters -- the Sukhoi-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21 and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft -- are hardly welcoming the prospect of a seventh fighter type, which would require expensive, tailor-made base infrastructure, repair depots and spare parts chains.

Air power experts say more Sukhoi-30MKIs would eliminate this need, besides being cheaper.

Alternatively, fast-tracking the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, which Russia and India intend to co-develop, would eliminate the need for Rafales.

Even if the IAF exercises an option clause for 18 more Rafales, there would be just three operational squadrons, like with the Mirage 2000.

Besides the options clause, nine more Rafales would be needed, since an IAF squadron has 21 fighters.

Sovereign guarantees

While New Delhi is negotiating the Rafale purchase directly with the private vendor, Dassault, the MoD wants sovereign guarantees from the French government, of the kind that come with American equipment bought through the Foreign Military Sales route.

In a FMS procurement -- India's C-130J Super Hercules purchase -- the US Department of Defence (the Pentagon) sets up a dedicated 'project management team' that negotiates on the buyer's behalf, beating down the price, establishing training and logistics support, and providing assurance that the buyer gets everything needed to operate and maintain the product.

Alongside FMS support, corruption is deterred by the stringent US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which vendors seldom dare to violate. This provides comfort to Indian MoD officials against subsequent allegations raised against a deal.

Paris, in contrast, is only willing to give a lukewarm written assurance of support with the Rafale -- something that the MoD refers to disparagingly as a 'comfort letter.'

Piecemeal contracting

India needs some 200 to 300 fighters to replace the MiG-21 and MiG-27 fleet that is being phased out of service. Just 36 Rafales provides little cover, so the IAF hopes to buy not just 18 more under the options clause, but perhaps another tranche later.

MoD officials complain that piecemeal contracting provides little leverage for beating down prices.

The same problem will afflict the procurement of the Gripen NG, or F-16s, which the MoD is weighing as possible options to replace retiring fighters.

With an IGA in the offing, and a formal contract yet to be negotiated, New Delhi would still have the opportunity to address these issues, say MoD officials.

Yet, the IGA on Friday will be celebrated in the IAF as a giant step towards a fighter they have pursued tenaciously for 15 years.



http://www.rediff.com/news/column/f...ld-ruin-modi-and-parrikars-party/20160923.htm
TOTALLY BULL SHIT !!!!
 
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Ajai Shukla... "Yes, Boeing, LM etc... I will be writing the trash piece on rafale today itself."
 
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Why has this thread gone silent???
Any further updates on Rafale or further orders in MII scheme etc ?
 
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