Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Agent_47]

You forget the possible integration of a smaller Brahmos. In this case do India need SCALP? not sure.

Brahmos-NG is just a concept, development work has not started.

 

[Abingdonboy]

If not 50, then 40 ? Still a very very big figure to invest importing a foreign plane.

Again, the figures here are all made up we cannot know for sure nor can anyone be clear what India is actually getting for the vast sums ( strategic tech will be coming as per the confidential IGA). Having said that, we DO know that Dassualt will invest 50% back into India so every other dollar is coming back to India and will go to highly advantageous areas (engine, ecosystem etc) so it makes no sense to consider this purely as an import with all the money outgoing.

In today's age top end tech is VERY expensive but that is the cost for quality, in the end India is one of the lowest defence spenders (as a proportion of GDP) in the world and it will spend many times its defence budget on infrastructure, healthcare, education, welfare etc etc.

The cost is justified to safeguard the very idea of India let alone it's 1.25++ BILLION citizens.

You pay peanuts you get monkeys.

 

[Armani]

I like the sound this deal is making nowadays. @PARIKRAMA Thanks much!

^^ Yes, I'll take that.

^^ This too...

^^ Don't wanna leave this out either...

Oh and don't forget naval Rafale...

How much French is too much? Well, it seems Indian armed forces want to find out! Meanwhile, I'm waiting for the opportune moment to order a cake...to celebrate the conclusion of Rafale deal, at last!

 

[[Bregs]]

Again, the figures here are all made up we cannot know for sure nor can anyone be clear what India is actually getting
The cost is justified to safeguard the very idea of India let alone it's 1.25++ BILLION citizens.

You pay peanuts you get monkeys.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I am trying to highlight that the time India took to complete the deal to buy Rafales from a country; in the same time Pakistan and China brought a brand new jet from drawing board to the skies.

Ignoring the blatant whitewashing of history here and skewing of timelines my only thought is.....so what? What point are you trying to prove?

At the end of the day, regardless of the timescales involved, the IAF is going to induct hundreds of Rafales (along with hundreds of LCA, MKI and FGFA) and the PAF Hundreds of JF-17, I ask you what side will be more satisfied with their actions?

 

[halupridol]

Lets not buy it .. now what are the options?

N parrikar said mmrca was too costly

 

[Armani]

Ignoring the blatant whitewashing of history here and skewing of timelines my only thought is.....so what? What point are you trying to prove?

At the end of the day, regardless of the timescales involved, the IAF is going to induct hundreds of Rafales (along with hundreds of LCA, MKI and FGFA) and the PAF Hundreds of JF-17, I ask you what side will be more satisfied with their actions?

Let's not even get started on the whole J-10B/FC-20 drama. It's far better to competitively evaluate + select an aircraft, and then see it through to the final stages of the deal, than to make claptrap about an imaginary purchase, and then drop it entirely altogether.

In the time the other side managed to work on 1 project and build some 50 planes (some of them came from China actually), we initiated 4-5 jet fighter projects, and built over 200 Sukhois in India (just 1 type), more to come. And that's not even including the other projects that are yet to materialize.

Those ~50 JF-17s licensed production are the only fighter planes ever built in Pakistan. But since 1950s, India has built nearly 1,000+ fighter airframes of various types. There is no comparison.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Lets not buy it .. now what are the options?

Moan about the depletion of the IAF's SQN strength and chastise the Indian leadership for failing to secure the deal!

You can't please some people but one can trust that this GoI has its nation's interests at heart (finally).

Let's not even get started on the whole J-10B/FC-20 drama. It's far better to competitively evaluate + select an aircraft, and then see it through to the final stages of the deal, than to make claptrap about an imaginary purchase, and then drop it entirely altogether.

In the time the other side managed to work on 1 project and build some 50 planes (some of them came from China actually), we initiated 4-5 jet fighter projects, and built over 200 Sukhois in India (just 1 type), more to come. And that's not even including the other projects that are yet to materialize.

Those ~50 JF-17s licensed production are the only fighter planes ever built in Pakistan. But since 1950s, India has built nearly 1,000+ fighter airframes of various types. There is no comparison.

Let the children continue to delude themselves and keep making these false equivelencies. I bet many of them console themselves that the IAF is transforming itself into one of the finest AFs on the face of the earth simply because they have to with the PAF being so mighty. When in reality the Rafale is going to be based almost entirely in the East and central India, the Western front has not been a worry for the IAF for decades.

 

[R!CK]

I'm very surprised about the famous 72 fighters for Qatar....
From the 12 fighters today to 72...... It's strange. For me the final number will be 48. And where to find pilots?

The answer lies in the history of UAE air force. An air force with a small fleet and high number of foreign pilots in the past, happens to be one of the biggest air force in the middle-east after KSA and with an all national pilot force which even KSA can't boast of.

In Middle-East, money makes things happen. I can tell you, when Qatar or UAE needs jets, last thing they will worry about is finding pilots. They might be more worried about what camo to put on the jet than abt finding people to fly them.

Good Day!

 

[Sliver]

You forget the possible integration of a smaller Brahmos. In this case do India need SCALP? not sure.

the SCALP will already be customized to whatever the french are supplying, while the brahmos will have to be modified to fit the rafale. other than that, the SCALP seems to have a longer range than the Brahmos?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Gripen is good for its price. A good option for all the countries that can't afford twin-engine jet's operational/acquisition costs. A good option for countries that needs a credible fighter but at a lower budget.

A good option for a country with an indigenous single engine jet? A good option for a country that operates over 400 twin-engine jets and has an indigenous single engine jet to handle point defense? Maybe not. There is absolutely no place for a country like India to import a single engine jet because the country simply doesn't require a single engine jet to be an all rounder super beast? If idea was to have a single engine best of best aircraft, lets buy 500 Gripens and sell our Su-30s and Mig-29s?

P.S: SAAB is willing to share GAN AESA for Indian grippen deal but itself use Italian Selex AESA radar on their jets? Lol

Good Day!

The GaN radar currently available is on the Giraffe 4A located on a truck.
It allows significant longer range than GaA based radars, which can be used
to detect stealth aircrafts much sooner,
Combined with the Gripen datalink it is possible that the stealth aircraft may be shot down,
before it detects the Gripen patrol.

A Gripen version of GaN radar is not ready yet, so such radar would delay Gripen E.
For the planned induction date of MII, it is feasable, and would be a nice part of MLU for
near term Gripen E customers.

 

[randomradio]

@randomradio @PARIKRAMA

India would not get SCALP (storm shadow) unless its a signatory for MTCR. this would mean:
1) the negotiations for SCALP were on going while India was working on MTCR (most likely)
or
2) India started negotiation on SCALP after MTCR (high unlikely given the pace of Indian decision making on weapons procurement)
or
3) there is no SCALP involved in the deal

SCALP range > 300 km (limit for MTCR non signatories)

We do not know the weapons mix for the Rafale.

India will most likely have a separate tender out for LACMs. MBDA has replied to the initial RFI with the Taurus.

I was trying to point out that India took so much time to ink the deal to buy fighters that other countries managed to bring a brand new fighter from drawing board to skies - and reached to the next block (block-II) as well.

Both MKI and JF-17 started at the same time. While you are talking about different blocks, we are about to finish production of the MKI and start the MLU process.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

No not aircraft.
Its aircraft+cost escalation+deferred payment cost+ other financial package costs all clubbed together.
I earlier said its Euro 2.7 Bn + financial package cost Euro 0.5Bn. They must have added some more sub headings to round it upto Euro 3.4 Bn. At this price flyaway is Euro 94 Mn or $103 Mn and i gave this yesterday only

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-335#post-8689700

Now present price is superior to MMRCA price of $85 Mn so its clear other figures are clubbed onto this

Sweden will pay around $72M per Gripen E.

 

[randomradio]

No not aircraft.
Its aircraft+cost escalation+deferred payment cost+ other financial package costs all clubbed together.
I earlier said its Euro 2.7 Bn + financial package cost Euro 0.5Bn. They must have added some more sub headings to round it upto Euro 3.4 Bn. At this price flyaway is Euro 94 Mn or $103 Mn and i gave this yesterday only

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-335#post-8689700

Now present price is superior to MMRCA price of $85 Mn so its clear other figures are clubbed onto this

The MMRCA bid price was for MMRCA specs, not for F3R, let alone customized version.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

I don't think India will license produce a fighter with 30 years of delay.

No need to license from abroad what can be done (and has been done) internally.
A GaN radar with Gripen E formfactor should be available when MII aircraft are supposed to be delivered.