Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[halloweene]

The IRST is currently not in production and integrating the FSO or the RBE 2 radar requires a re-designed nose section, since more space is needed. Too complicated for a fighter with 10 years time left. It does have "some" IRST capability with MICA IR though.

no

 

[DrSomnath999]

So after Russian PR against the Rafale, now western PR against the Su 30.

Fact check:

- Rafale inducted in 2001, around 133 fighters operational if I'm not wrong, with 5 crashes
- Su 30MKI inducted in 2002, around 200 fighters opperational in IAF today, with 5 crashes

For both, most of the crashes were caused by pilot errors and not technical problems, but with the higher numbers of the MKI, it rather shows an impressive technical reliability for a Russian fighter!

from 5 crashes have been reported for rafale 1 for airforce /4 for navy
only 1 crash that too of navy from technical defect majority for pilot error

majority of MKI crash rate has something to do with technical defects though pilot error is just a face saving gimmick by the Russians investigators unlike majority of rafale crash

MKI's engines have indeed serious technical , relaibilty & proper maintanence issues

other issues have also been prevoiusly reported too in MKI


CHEERS

 

[halloweene]

So after Russian PR against the Rafale, now western PR against the Su 30.

Fact check:

- Rafale inducted in 2001, around 133 fighters operational if I'm not wrong, with 5 crashes
- Su 30MKI inducted in 2002, around 200 fighters opperational in IAF today, with 5 crashes

For both, most of the crashes were caused by pilot errors and not technical problems, but with the higher numbers of the MKI, it rather shows an impressive technical reliability for a Russian fighter!

Lets be frnk. full inspection of AL 31 is about 500 hours. M88-2 is around 4000 hours (and in fact is not needed due to ontime diagnosis system)

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Lets be frnk. full inspection of AL 31 is about 500 hours. M88-2 is around 4000 hours (and in fact is not needed due to ontime diagnosis system)

While Saturn claims something like 1200 hrs, actually its about 500-800 hours. Heat and Dust in the Sub-Continent is un-forgiving on aero-engines apart from intrinsic issues. That is a different matter from Safran or Snecma orHoneywell or GE or P&W design into their engines.

 

[halloweene]

While Saturn claims something like 1200 hrs, actually its about 500-800 hours. Heat and Dust in the Sub-Continent is un-forgiving on aero-engines apart from intrinsic issues. That is a different matter from Safran or Snecma orHoneywell or GE or P&W design into their engines.

Same as Rafale in the UAE...

 

[sancho]

Lets be frnk. full inspection of AL 31 is about 500 hours. M88-2 is around 4000 hours (and in fact is not needed due to ontime diagnosis system)

Which only shows the higher maintenance requirement of Russian engines, not a the claimed technical problem, which simply is baseless as shown. MKIs reliability in IAF is better than Rafales in French forces and not a single MKI crash, was caused by a technical problem of the engine. Even if you take the claimed number of incedents with the engine and put it in the right perspective of the number of MKIs in IAF, the flight hours per year each MKI have and that over more than a decade, it's just laughable to claim a serious issue.
We know that Russian stuff is not made of low maintenance, we know that Russian after sale supply is not the best and both surely were reasons why Rafale and EF had advantages over the Mig in the MMRCA (or why the IAF like the Mirage 2000), but that simply doesn't take away the fact that the track reckord of the MKI in safty and reliability is more than good so far!

 

[K M Cariappa]

French government support for Rafale can lower unit cost

France's Dassault Aviation may be about to enjoy government financial support of the type that would enable its Rafale fighter to push into export markets. Both the contract announced earlier this year for 24 aircraft to be sold to Egypt, as well as a proposal made in mid-March for what is anticipated to be a request for proposals for a 16-18 aircraft buy from Malaysia, feature loans backed by French government guarantees as the financing mechanism for the sales.

The twin-engine French fighter has a number of attractive features from the perspective of the nations that have considered purchasing it. One is that the design is not speculative; the major systems like the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar from Thales and the Snecma M88-2 engine are all already in service on operational French Rafales.

Another positive is that the aircraft is available in both land- and carrier-based variants. This is an attractive set of options for nations looking to acquire aircraft carriers in the near future in that they could be flying one basic type of fighter across more than one service branch.

Thirdly, the Rafale is fitted with a full array of European-made weaponry that gives whoever purchases the aircraft the ability to operate weapons that do not fall under the umbrella of US export control guidelines. Dassault also offers more lenient terms on access to software source code and other technology compared to, for example, US manufacturers, so that the nations that purchase the aircraft would have greater autonomy when deciding how to modify the aircraft for their own mission requirements.

French government support for Rafale can lower unit cost - IHS Jane's 360

 

[halloweene]

Ite Missa Est

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Ite Missa Est

How is this religious term related to RAFALE

 

[Bilal9]

While Saturn claims something like 1200 hrs, actually its about 500-800 hours. Heat and Dust in the Sub-Continent is un-forgiving on aero-engines apart from intrinsic issues. That is a different matter from Safran or Snecma orHoneywell or GE or P&W design into their engines.

I thought almost all Russian fighter aircraft have a FOD intake barrier (separate intake on top switched while taxying). Mig-29s and even the tiny Yak 130 trainers being inducted by Bangladesh have it.

Are maintenance hours a big deal when translated into Indian salary? I understand timely supply of spares from NPO Saturn is an issue but I thought that the engines were going to be manufactured/assembled locally at some point?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I thought almost all Russian fighter aircraft have a FOD intake barrier (separate intake on top switched while taxying). Mig-29s and even the tiny Yak 130 trainers being inducted by Bangladesh have it.

Are maintenance hours a big deal when translated into Indian salary? I understand timely supply of spares from NPO Saturn is an issue but I thought that the engines were going to be manufactured/assembled locally at some point?

This is nothing to do with FOD. It has to do with fine dust ingestion which acts as an abrasive on the internal moving parts moving at such high RPM. It works like sand/grit blasting. Those doors/barriers are unable to keep that out. Even the high ambient temperatures do not help, it works to break down lubricants prematurely.

Do you think that maintenance hours are not a big deal??
Would you prefer that your car has a 1000 km service/oil-change interval or a 10,000 km interval? Even with the rates of the 'zinzira-boys' mechanics in your country?

 

[Bilal9]

This is nothing to do with FOD. It has to do with fine dust ingestion which acts as an abrasive on the internal moving parts moving at such high RPM. It works like sand/grit blasting. Those doors/barriers are unable to keep that out. Even the high ambient temperatures do not help, it works to break down lubricants prematurely.

Do you think that maintenance hours are not a big deal??
Would you prefer that your car has a 1000 km service/oil-change interval or a 10,000 km interval? Even with the rates of the 'zinzira-boys' mechanics in your country?

Understood. However dust/grit is nothing new to the subcontinent. Our dust in Bangladesh (dried silt) is as fine as talcum powder and is everywhere during the winter.

What I'm asking is that Since starting assembly of the first soviet fighters in the sixties (Mig 21) that issue has always been present and the maintenance regime in India has always dealt with it. What changed lately with the SU-31 that this dust thing became a big issue now...

Maintenance costs in India are a fraction of what is accepted in the West as a cost of ownership. Other than the hassle - the increased maintenance interval can be factored into the overall cost of ownership.

Some people (including local) are okay with the compromise with older cars. But generally even ten year-old JDM re-conditioned cars (the lower end of the market) are as reliable as an anvil. Sorry for the OT segway.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Understood. However dust/grit is nothing new to the subcontinent. Our dust in Bangladesh (dried silt) is as fine as talcum powder and is everywhere during the winter.

What I'm asking is that Since starting assembly of the first soviet fighters in the sixties (Mig 21) that issue has always been present and the maintenance regime in India has always dealt with it. What changed lately with the SU-31 that this dust thing became a big issue now...

Maintenance costs in India are a fraction of what is accepted in the West as a cost of ownership. Other than the hassle - the increased maintenance interval can be factored into the overall cost of ownership.

Some people (including local) are okay with the compromise with older cars. But generally even ten year-old JDM re-conditioned cars (the lower end of the market) are as reliable as an anvil. Sorry for the OT segway.

The life of all Aero-Engines in the Sub-Continent is lesser than in the countries where they are designed and manufactured. Also while they run; the produce less power than originally designed for.
All that cannot be corrected only coped with. With more frequent OH and greater use of consumables.

It is pretty much the same with all engines; whether steam turbines or reciprocating Diesel/gasoline engines. Aero/GT Engines are rated for an ambient temperature of 15 deg Celsius. How many parts of the sub-continent have that kind of prevailing temp.?

You are mistaking Labor costs with Maintenence Costs! Only Labor costs are a fraction of the costs in the West. All other Maintenance costs are the same if not more; actually more because of more consumption of parts and the costs of the parts themselves. This applies to automobiles (if you are using good quality spares, not local spurious substitutes) and it certainly applies to aircraft!
So your statement is fallacious.

 

[topgun047]

The life of all Aero-Engines in the Sub-Continent is lesser than in the countries where they are designed and manufactured. Also while they run; the produce less power than originally designed for.
All that cannot be corrected only coped with. With more frequent OH and greater use of consumables.

It is pretty much the same with all engines; whether steam turbines or reciprocating Diesel/gasoline engines. Aero/GT Engines are rated for an ambient temperature of 15 deg Celsius. How many parts of the sub-continent have that kind of prevailing temp.?

You are mistaking Labor costs with Maintenence Costs! Only Labor costs are a fraction of the costs in the West. All other Maintenance costs are the same if not more; actually more because of more consumption of parts and the costs of the parts themselves. This applies to automobiles (if you are using good quality spares, not local spurious substitutes) and it certainly applies to aircraft!
So your statement is fallacious.

Surely the "Hot Engine" technology that is in the works within DTTI will help address some of the issues.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Surely the "Hot Engine" technology that is in the works within DTTI will help address some of the issues.

That seems to be the intention.