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Sorry.... I was tired.
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]
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X_Killer
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You are already there... Remember IAF Chronicles...Sorry.... I was tired.
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Funny.
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Rafale Deal: Dassault, US Ex-Envoy Flagged HAL’s Quality Control
The stalemate between the Indian government and French aircraft manufacturing company Dassault over the supply of 126 fourth-generation Rafale fighter jets, was not so much because of pricing as much as the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s (HAL) competence to deliver on quality, top Indian Air Force sources have revealed to The Quint.
https://www.thequint.com/news/india/rafale-deal-dassault-us-envoy-unhappy-hal-quality-control
The stalemate between the Indian government and French aircraft manufacturing company Dassault over the supply of 126 fourth-generation Rafale fighter jets, was not so much because of pricing as much as the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s (HAL) competence to deliver on quality, top Indian Air Force sources have revealed to The Quint.
https://www.thequint.com/news/india/rafale-deal-dassault-us-envoy-unhappy-hal-quality-control
Hindustani78
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“During the UPA the deal signed and the cost per aircraft was ₹526.1 crore. What we have heard is that the same Rafale jets have now been procured for ₹1570.8 crores. Is it true? Who will speak on it? The Defence Minister refuses to speak, the Defence Secretary is silent. The government doesn’t speak inside or outside Parliament,” said Mr. Azad. Mr. Surjewala said the same aircraft was sold to Qatar by Dassault Aviation that makes Rafale fighter jets for ₹694.8 crores, presumably much lower than what the NDA government paid for them.
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Ministry of Defence
07-February, 2018 17:28 IST
Information Relating to Inter-Governmental Agreement on Rafale
Unfounded allegations are being made regarding the 2016 Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) to procure 36 Rafale aircraft in fly-away condition from France. This would normally not have merited a response but for the serious damage being caused by the misleading statements, sought to be repeatedly perpetrated on a serious matter of national security.
It ought to be remembered that it was under the ten-year tenure of the previous Government at the Centre that the earlier initiative of 2002 to meet requirement of the Indian Air Force (IAF) for much needed augmentation of its fighter strength ran aground. In 2012, the then Defence Minister exercised an unprecedented personal veto on the laid down institutional process then underway for procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). All this happened when there was an alarming decline in IAF’s fighter strength.
In another effort to twist facts, the Government is asked why it did not conduct negotiations with a particular company representing a competing fighter aircraft. It seems to have been conveniently forgotten that the then Government itself had rejected that company’s unsolicited offer made days after closure of the bid process, declared Rafale (DA) as the L1 bidder and had commenced negotiations with it in February 2012.
The demand that the Government disclose the details and value of the contract for the Rafale aircraft contracted in 2016 is unrealistic. [In keeping with confidentiality requirements, the UPA Government had also expressed its inability to disclose the price of various defence procurements, including in its responses to Parliament Questions]. The approximate acquisition cost of the Rafale aircraft has already been provided to the Parliament. Provision of exact item-wise cost and other information will reveal, inter alia, details regarding the various customizations and weapons systems specially designed to augment the effectiveness and lethality of the assets, impact our military preparedness and compromise our national security. Such details would also come under the ambit of the security agreement signed in 2008. Thus, in not revealing the item-wise details of the contract, the Government is merely following in letter and spirit the confidentiality provisions of a bilateral India-France Agreement of 2008 signed by the previous Government.
As doubts are sought to be created about the 2016 contract for 36 aircraft, it is once again strongly reiterated that the deal secured by the Government is better in terms of capability, price, equipment, delivery, maintenance, training, etc., than that notionally negotiated by the then Government in a process it could not conclude in ten years. Moreover, the present Government completed these negotiations in just about one year.
It is also stressed once again that the procurement of 36 Rafale aircraft through an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) with France to meet the urgent need of the IAF is strictly in accordance with the Defence Procurement Procedure in all aspects including mandating, conducting and monitoring of negotiations and seeking all necessary approvals, including that of the Cabinet Committee on Security, before entering into the IGA. The aircraft had already been evaluated successfully by IAF during 2009-10.
It may also be noted that contrary to the impression sought, to be created by the Opposition, in the earlier proposal to procure Rafale, which ended in a stalemate, there was no provision for transfer of technology but only to manufacture under licence. The Government was unable to agree on the terms for even that in its negotiations with the vendor, resulting in the long-drawn exercise under the earlier Government ultimately turning futile. Further, no Indian Offset Partner for the 2016 deal for 36 Rafale Aircraft has been so far selected by the vendor (DA) because as per the applicable guidelines, DA is free to select the Indian Offset Partners and provide their details at the time of seeking offset credits, or one year prior to discharge of offset obligation.
***********
Ministry of Defence
07-February, 2018 17:28 IST
Information Relating to Inter-Governmental Agreement on Rafale
Unfounded allegations are being made regarding the 2016 Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) to procure 36 Rafale aircraft in fly-away condition from France. This would normally not have merited a response but for the serious damage being caused by the misleading statements, sought to be repeatedly perpetrated on a serious matter of national security.
It ought to be remembered that it was under the ten-year tenure of the previous Government at the Centre that the earlier initiative of 2002 to meet requirement of the Indian Air Force (IAF) for much needed augmentation of its fighter strength ran aground. In 2012, the then Defence Minister exercised an unprecedented personal veto on the laid down institutional process then underway for procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). All this happened when there was an alarming decline in IAF’s fighter strength.
In another effort to twist facts, the Government is asked why it did not conduct negotiations with a particular company representing a competing fighter aircraft. It seems to have been conveniently forgotten that the then Government itself had rejected that company’s unsolicited offer made days after closure of the bid process, declared Rafale (DA) as the L1 bidder and had commenced negotiations with it in February 2012.
The demand that the Government disclose the details and value of the contract for the Rafale aircraft contracted in 2016 is unrealistic. [In keeping with confidentiality requirements, the UPA Government had also expressed its inability to disclose the price of various defence procurements, including in its responses to Parliament Questions]. The approximate acquisition cost of the Rafale aircraft has already been provided to the Parliament. Provision of exact item-wise cost and other information will reveal, inter alia, details regarding the various customizations and weapons systems specially designed to augment the effectiveness and lethality of the assets, impact our military preparedness and compromise our national security. Such details would also come under the ambit of the security agreement signed in 2008. Thus, in not revealing the item-wise details of the contract, the Government is merely following in letter and spirit the confidentiality provisions of a bilateral India-France Agreement of 2008 signed by the previous Government.
As doubts are sought to be created about the 2016 contract for 36 aircraft, it is once again strongly reiterated that the deal secured by the Government is better in terms of capability, price, equipment, delivery, maintenance, training, etc., than that notionally negotiated by the then Government in a process it could not conclude in ten years. Moreover, the present Government completed these negotiations in just about one year.
It is also stressed once again that the procurement of 36 Rafale aircraft through an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) with France to meet the urgent need of the IAF is strictly in accordance with the Defence Procurement Procedure in all aspects including mandating, conducting and monitoring of negotiations and seeking all necessary approvals, including that of the Cabinet Committee on Security, before entering into the IGA. The aircraft had already been evaluated successfully by IAF during 2009-10.
It may also be noted that contrary to the impression sought, to be created by the Opposition, in the earlier proposal to procure Rafale, which ended in a stalemate, there was no provision for transfer of technology but only to manufacture under licence. The Government was unable to agree on the terms for even that in its negotiations with the vendor, resulting in the long-drawn exercise under the earlier Government ultimately turning futile. Further, no Indian Offset Partner for the 2016 deal for 36 Rafale Aircraft has been so far selected by the vendor (DA) because as per the applicable guidelines, DA is free to select the Indian Offset Partners and provide their details at the time of seeking offset credits, or one year prior to discharge of offset obligation.
Last edited:
Taygibay
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When Qatar signed on December 7 for its 12 optional Rafales
from the deal of 24 worth it paid 1.1B€.
The original deal of 24 was for 6.3B€ so they total 7.4 for 36.
India paid 7.8B€ or 400k more but with more/different options.
trolls and politically oriented Indian media pieces / fans,
it would make my old scarred and bleeding heart feel as
if it was all gooey & chocolaty & covered in raspberry coulis.
I'm open to betting dollars versus cookies that it won't happen!
Oh m'well, g'dday, Tay.
from the deal of 24 worth it paid 1.1B€.
The original deal of 24 was for 6.3B€ so they total 7.4 for 36.
India paid 7.8B€ or 400k more but with more/different options.
So 2 conclusions :
1- India paid the same as Qatar!
2- A naked Rafale is worth 1.1B€ * 12
or 91.666 (periodic) million Euros.
Now if that can help stop the blah blah blah from both1- India paid the same as Qatar!
2- A naked Rafale is worth 1.1B€ * 12
or 91.666 (periodic) million Euros.
trolls and politically oriented Indian media pieces / fans,
it would make my old scarred and bleeding heart feel as
if it was all gooey & chocolaty & covered in raspberry coulis.
I'm open to betting dollars versus cookies that it won't happen!
Oh m'well, g'dday, Tay.
Last edited:
Hell hound
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Hindustani78
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http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...l-unfounded/article22681774.ece?homepage=true
Details can’t be disclosed, says Centre
Dismissing the allegations on the Rafale fighter deal with France, the government claimed on Wednesday that its deal was better than the one “notionally negotiated by the then government in a process it could not conclude in 10 years.”
“Unfounded allegations are being made regarding the 2016 Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) to procure 36 Rafale aircraft in fly-away condition from France. This would normally not have merited a response but for the serious damage being caused by the misleading statements, sought to be repeatedly perpetrated on a serious matter of national security,” the Defence Ministry said in a statement.
Stating that the details and value of the contract cannot be disclosed due to the “confidentiality requirements,” the Ministry called demands for their disclosure “unrealistic.”
‘Compromise security’
The Ministry said that provision of exact item-wise cost and other information would reveal details regarding the various customisations and weapons systems specially designed to increase the effectiveness and lethality of the aircraft and would impact military preparedness and compromise national security.
“Such details would also come within the ambit of the security agreement signed in 2008. Thus, in not revealing the item-wise details, the government is merely following in letter and in spirit the confidentiality provisions of a bilateral Agreement of 2008 signed by the previous government,” it said.
*********
the various customisations and weapons systems specially designed to increase the effectiveness and lethality of the aircraft and would impact military preparedness and compromise national security.
the deal secured by the Government is better in terms of capability, price, equipment, delivery, maintenance, training, etc., than that notionally negotiated by the then Government in a process it could not conclude in ten years.
Seems the details have been shared with the enemies which is direct violation of the agreement and the Qatari and Egyptian Military will terminate the maintenance, training as well as equipment agreement with the French Government and will go for different country.
Details can’t be disclosed, says Centre
Dismissing the allegations on the Rafale fighter deal with France, the government claimed on Wednesday that its deal was better than the one “notionally negotiated by the then government in a process it could not conclude in 10 years.”
“Unfounded allegations are being made regarding the 2016 Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) to procure 36 Rafale aircraft in fly-away condition from France. This would normally not have merited a response but for the serious damage being caused by the misleading statements, sought to be repeatedly perpetrated on a serious matter of national security,” the Defence Ministry said in a statement.
Stating that the details and value of the contract cannot be disclosed due to the “confidentiality requirements,” the Ministry called demands for their disclosure “unrealistic.”
‘Compromise security’
The Ministry said that provision of exact item-wise cost and other information would reveal details regarding the various customisations and weapons systems specially designed to increase the effectiveness and lethality of the aircraft and would impact military preparedness and compromise national security.
“Such details would also come within the ambit of the security agreement signed in 2008. Thus, in not revealing the item-wise details, the government is merely following in letter and in spirit the confidentiality provisions of a bilateral Agreement of 2008 signed by the previous government,” it said.
*********
the various customisations and weapons systems specially designed to increase the effectiveness and lethality of the aircraft and would impact military preparedness and compromise national security.
the deal secured by the Government is better in terms of capability, price, equipment, delivery, maintenance, training, etc., than that notionally negotiated by the then Government in a process it could not conclude in ten years.
Seems the details have been shared with the enemies which is direct violation of the agreement and the Qatari and Egyptian Military will terminate the maintenance, training as well as equipment agreement with the French Government and will go for different country.
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it depend.
Is it for the first 24 (24 planes AND all the support, tools, spares, training...)
Or the last 12 (only 12 dry planes for 1.1 €billion)
randomradio
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come on mate i was enjoying the rant and you spoiled it with your sensible post
Qatar bought more weapons and training, while India bought more customization. Plus, India's deal comes with 50% offsets, so there is ToT, spares production etc involved.
So the overall cost to India was much lesser.
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帅的一匹
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12.6 billion for 126 Rafale by Congress and now 10 billions for only 36 Rafael.
If this deal go through, then democracy dies in India. The opposition party will keep it in check.
300 millions for a Rafale? Go to hell
The redneck BJP is more avaricious than the Bahratis Congress.
I expect the deal will be suspended.
Taygibay
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Not 10 billions, 7.8, strike one!
Not 12.6 billions either as the perimeter of the deal
was different and it was a non-finalized entry price.
Strike two.
Not 300 millions for a Rafale, 92m, read post #6367.
Strike three.
Before getting to the subjective part your reasoning
was flawed by use of the wrong facts, mate.
Sorry but good day, Tay.
P.S. Not Rafael either.
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