Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Taygibay]

Really guys? Again?

All depend of what means "supercruise".
mach 1,01 without PC ?
mach 1.1?
mach 1.2?
mach 1.5 ?

By logic, Mach 1,01 is supercruise, however ...
below M 1.2, it is a fight against the conditions.
From roughly M 0,85 to 1,2 the airflow is turbulent.
You want to be below or above hence supercruise.
1.4 or 1.5 is the practical threshold.

What is the number of F-22?

Classified of course but in an internal USAF exercise, the Raptor did
show us some colors so : 1.5+ Mach for over 200 nm.
This said, in a mission setting, going for much longer than 100 Nm
already has drawbacks, especially a potential fuel bingo w/o tanker.

Do remember that if supercruise beats afterburners on fuel consumed
which makes it desirable, it still guzzles it a lot more than subsonic ...
a whole big lot and that thus reduces the mission radius.

As always, a single fit all number is not to be had. Understand the above
and find out what your / your target AF_aircraft combo tactic book says.
Then it will be useful?

Great day both, Tay.

 

[BON PLAN]

I dont know.
But I think first the Mach must be high enough to give weapon considerable advantage on speed/range against your subsonic opponents to call it "super".
Second You get to keep that Mach for considerable time to call it "cruise".
What is the number of F-22?

Mach 1.5 for F22. Same for Eurofighter
Mach 1.4 for Rafale.

 

[randomradio]

 

[randomradio]

Damn' good note, Taygibay. Really lays out the options in crystal clear terms. I'm going back to re-read it and absorb it.

Thank you, my good mate! I'm really tired of the daydreamers.

Heck, according to some, we forgot F-35, MiG-35, FGFA, etc.
If the one billion PMs of India had their way, the IAF would buy
a dozen of each fighter made or soon to come.

The farce has to stop.

Great day all, Tay.

You simply haven't considered the timeframe of all these projects.

LCA Mk1A - 2016-2024/27 (3-5 years delivery cycle for 123 jets)
Rafale - 2019-2026 (7 years for 72 jets)
SE MII: Gripen/F-16 - 2024+ (5-7 years for about 200 jets)
FGFA - 2026+
AMCA - 2035+
TE MII: explained later

With our current budget, we are going to induct LCA and Rafale at the same time. By 2025, we can have 159-195 jets, subject to the 2nd order of 36. Two more squadrons of Rafale will be placed for sure because we have 2 bases and only 1 squadron in each right now. By the time this is complete, we will only have maintained our current strength of 33 squadrons. We will continue to be short by 9 squadrons.

After the LCA and the initial lot of 72 Rafales are complete, we will start taking deliveries of Gripen/F-16 and FGFA from Indian factories. So IAF is actually inducting only two types at a time.

HAL's MKI production is ending and will be replaced with the LCA. Once LCA ends, we need to replace that with the FGFA. We can't just shut down HAL's fighter production capability after LCA. Basically, HAL related projects are high priority and will not be stopped.

However, none of these programs take care of the IN's needs. So we are going to see a new project for twin engine jets shared between the IAF and IN. After IN's MRCBF program is complete (deliveries from 2024-2027 for 57 jets), we will see the introduction of a twin engine requirement after 2022 or so, for MII production after 2027, more like 2030. This jet will take care of IAF's need for 200 Rafale class jets and the initial lot of 100 jets for IN's third carrier. This is where Rafale MII comes into play, although this is not Dassault's plan. Dassault is hoping to combine IN's MRCBF for 57 jets and IAF's 2nd tranche of 36 jets into their own tailor made MII plan and overwrite GoI's TE tender plans completely.

So if you consider the timeframe involved, it ain't farce. You have merely forgotten that the IN has a need for 200 fighter jets of their own for their 3 carrier force.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You simply haven't considered the timeframe of all these projects.

LCA Mk1A - 2016-2024/27 (3-5 years delivery cycle for 123 jets)
Rafale - 2019-2026 (7 years for 72 jets)
SE MII: Gripen/F-16 - 2024+ (5-7 years for about 200 jets)
FGFA - 2026+
AMCA - 2035+
TE MII: explained later

With our current budget, we are going to induct LCA and Rafale at the same time. By 2025, we can have 159-195 jets, subject to the 2nd order of 36. Two more squadrons of Rafale will be placed for sure because we have 2 bases and only 1 squadron in each right now. By the time this is complete, we will only have maintained our current strength of 33 squadrons. We will continue to be short by 9 squadrons.

After the LCA and the initial lot of 72 Rafales are complete, we will start taking deliveries of Gripen/F-16 and FGFA from Indian factories. So IAF is actually inducting only two types at a time.

HAL's MKI production is ending and will be replaced with the LCA. Once LCA ends, we need to replace that with the FGFA. We can't just shut down HAL's fighter production capability after LCA. Basically, HAL related projects are high priority and will not be stopped.

However, none of these programs take care of the IN's needs. So we are going to see a new project for twin engine jets shared between the IAF and IN. After IN's MRCBF program is complete (deliveries from 2024-2027 for 57 jets), we will see the introduction of a twin engine requirement after 2022 or so, for MII production after 2027, more like 2030. This jet will take care of IAF's need for 200 Rafale class jets and the initial lot of 100 jets for IN's third carrier. This is where Rafale MII comes into play, although this is not Dassault's plan. Dassault is hoping to combine IN's MRCBF for 57 jets and IAF's 2nd tranche of 36 jets into their own tailor made MII plan and overwrite GoI's TE tender plans completely.

So if you consider the timeframe involved, it ain't farce. You have merely forgotten that the IN has a need for 200 fighter jets of their own for their 3 carrier force.

Look at it from another angle.

If you make a table, with the time frames at 5 years' intervals across the top, and the aircraft types along the side, on the x-axis, and fill the numbers in service in those years, you will get what @Taygibay is driving at.

 

[randomradio]

Look at it from another angle.

If you make a table, with the time frames at 5 years' intervals across the top, and the aircraft types along the side, on the x-axis, and fill the numbers in service in those years, you will get what @Taygibay is driving at.

I have overestimated the timeframes for all.

More optimistic timeframes for the IAF jets.
Stage 1:
LCA - all 123 - 2022
Rafale - last of the 72 - 2025
First Gripen/F-16 - 180 - 2024-2027. 3 squadrons a year.

Total squadrons = 13.5+3+2+4.5...existing + 19 new = 42 squadrons by 2027.
This is the fastest the IAF can manage. They obviously won't.

Stage 2:
First FGFA - 154 jets/8 squad - 2027-2035. First 4 jets delivered in 2025.
First Rafale MII - ~108 jets/5 squad - 2030-35. 1 squadron a year.
Total squadrons in service/ordered = 55.

Peacetime attrition = 0.5 squadron a year. Total squadrons lost until 2035 = ~8 squadrons.

3 Mig-29 and 2.5 Jaguar squadrons to be phased out before 2035.

Total squadrons remaining in 2035 = 41.5 squadrons.

Stage 3:
By this time minimum squadron strength will be increased. M2K, Jaguar and MKI replacement post 2035. Potential = 30.5 squadrons. Compensate with more squadrons for peacetime attrition.
AMCA - 2035+
FGFA Mk2 - 2035+
New family of jets - 2040+

 

[BON PLAN]

More optimistic timeframes for the IAF jets.
Stage 1:
LCA - all 123 - 2022

When you have a look to the past, with HAL, it is VERY OPTIMISTIC. Far too I think....

 

[Taygibay]

Classified of course but in an internal USAF exercise, the Raptor did
show us some colors so : 1.5+ Mach for over 200 nm.
This said, in a mission setting, going for much longer than 100 Nm
already has drawbacks, especially a potential fuel bingo w/o tanker.

As seen in the top row of that graph which should explain my previous post.

As for the rest,

More optimistic timeframes for the IAF jets.
Stage 1:
LCA - all 123 - 2022

When you have a look to the past, with HAL, it is VERY OPTIMISTIC. Far too I think....

Let's see : 2018-2022 gives 5 years so 123 divided by 5 being just shy of 25,
it begs the question _Has HAL even ever produced 25 planes in a year?

I know, I know, I forgot the Tejasses already produced by now and by then ...
so that it's much less but actually, I forget nothing and especially not to temper
my enthusiasm in computing real life prospectives, contrarily to some.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-rate-of-production-of-LCA-Tejas
​

Getting HAL to churn out 16 planes per year should be feasible [ even if the MKI
peaked at 12 since the LCA is smaller and simpler ] but if there is an IOC to Mk1
to Mk1A to Mk2 roadmap inside that 123, you can bet your grandma's wheelchair
safely that production won't run as smoothly as planned ( assuming your granny HAS a wheelchair* ).

That's a concurrency model and a cursory search will show how well it worked &
is working so far amongst the Phoons and Lite-ning-toos as well as in so many
other military and civilian programs in related fields.
It's not that HAL is incapable of it per say but that HAL is not quite as capable as
much more experienced corps that are having a very hard time with concurrency.

Now, expand that caution to all fighter programs you're dreaming of?

I'm trying to outline the simplest, and thus hopefully shortest too, fighter frameline
for getting India to its numbers with a clear accent on paving the indigenous route.

Sorry I guess? Tay.


* Or something equivalent; I'd safely bet one of my bikes for example. : )

 

[randomradio]

Let's see : 2018-2022 gives 5 years so 123 divided by 5 being just shy of 25, it begs the question _Has HAL even ever produced 25 planes in a year?

Yes. There was a point when we had 3 production lines in HAL building Mig-21, Mig-27 and Jaguars.

​

Getting HAL to churn out 16 planes per year should be feasible [ even if the MKI
peaked at 12 since the LCA is smaller and simpler ] but if there is an IOC to Mk1
to Mk1A to Mk2 roadmap inside that 123, you can bet your grandma's wheelchair
safely that production won't run as smoothly as planned ( assuming your granny HAS a wheelchair* ).

16 LCAs a year is the plan. But HAL would like orders doubled in order to increase production to 24. Mk1A has no need for IOC/FOC. And LCA Mk2 is not gonna interfere with the first set of planned 123 aircraft.

That's a concurrency model and a cursory search will show how well it worked &
is working so far amongst the Phoons and Lite-ning-toos as well as in so many
other military and civilian programs in related fields.
It's not that HAL is incapable of it per say but that HAL is not quite as capable as
much more experienced corps that are having a very hard time with concurrency.

No, HAL is not following concurrency for Mk1A. It's the same airframe as Mk1, slightly rejigged and the internal estate has been moved around a bit.

IAF refused HAL's concurrency plans. "Get the aircraft to spec and then we will buy".

Now, expand that caution to all fighter programs you're dreaming of?

I'm trying to outline the simplest, and thus hopefully shortest too, fighter frameline
for getting India to its numbers with a clear accent on paving the indigenous route.

Sorry I guess? Tay.


* Or something equivalent; I'd safely bet one of my bikes for example. : )

The issue with the plan you outlined is we will never reach the sanctioned squadrons that way.

Our only aircraft inductions after 2000 were the 13.5 squadrons of MKI and 37 Jaguars. That's 15.5 squadrons. All other aircraft we operate were inducted in the 70s and 80s. So we need to place orders for 26.5 squadrons in order to get to 42 by 2032. And counting modest attrition, we need 34.5 squadrons delivered by 2032.

That's nearly 700 aircraft. This number is only meant to ensure parity. In 5 years, it could change.

Out of 700 we only have orders for 159. We still have to place orders for over 500 aircraft. So we can have the initial 4-6 squadrons each for SE and TE MII, 8 squadrons for FGFA and still have well over 100 jets pending.

And we need 57 flyaway and 100+ jet MII for IN. Independent programs.

When you have a look to the past, with HAL, it is VERY OPTIMISTIC. Far too I think....

HAL isn't the problem. The delays with LCA came due to development problems related to ADA.

HAL can produce aircraft all right. They have already set up a 19/year line. 3 are for prototypes and LSPs.

Anyway, I pointed out the timeframe was optimistic. HAL says they will deliver all 123 jets (the remaining 103 jets) in just 3 years. That doesn't mean IAF will accept it. They are expected to deliver all anywhere between 2024 and 2027.

 

[Hindustani78]

Prime Minister's Office
04-October, 2017 18:02 IST
Mr. Philippe Etienne, Diplomatic Advisor to the President of the French Republic calls on the Prime Minister


Mr. Philippe Etienne, Diplomatic Advisor to the President of the French Republic called on the Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi today.

Mr. Etienne briefed the Prime Minister on the strengthening ties between India and France in all sectors, including in the areas of defence and security.

The Prime Minister fondly recalled his successful visit to France in June 2017. The Prime Minister said that defence and security are two important pillars of the India-France Strategic Partnership, and appreciated the growing bilateral engagement in all sectors.

The Prime Minister also said that he looks forward to receiving President Macron in India at his earliest convenience.

***

 

[Hindustani78]

The Diplomatic Advisor to the President of the French Republic, Mr. Philippe Etienne calls on the Prime Minister, Shri Narendra Modi, in New Delhi on October 04, 2017.

The Diplomatic Advisor to the President of the French Republic, Mr. Philippe Etienne calls on the Prime Minister, Shri Narendra Modi, in New Delhi on October 04, 2017.

 

[Gessler]

Insider updates thanks to @PARIKRAMA

• The present 36 deal's 2 air bases - Ambala and hasimara will have the following
  • New Shelters of HAS type
  • New hangars
  • New Operating Surfaces
  • De-briefing room
  • Mission Simulator and Training small room
  • Main Simulator Training complex at Air force HQ
• Present IAF Rafales will get
  • Interconnection with AFNET and Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS)
  • IACCS is an automated command and control system for Air Defence (AD) operations on which the whole network of SAM system including our indigenous BMD, S-450 MKI and Barak 8 based MRSAM and XRSAM complex , Spyder and Akash systems will be integrated.
  • The connectivity with AFNet will lead to integrating all ground-based and airborne sensors, AD weapon systems and C2 nodes with Rafale Sensor suite for a to and fro communication
  • This implies Rafale will be communicating with
    • IAF’s AWACS,
    • UAVs ,
    • Aerostat,
    • Other Fighters ,
    • Military and Communication satellite like GSAT 7A
    • Ground based assets - SAMs /BMDs
    • & C4I command centers.
  • Targeting POD is Litening G4 pod on Rafale.
  • RWR (Radar Warning Receivers) and Low band Jammers included in the deal as a part fo additional measures
• BEL Role + DRAL+ Other Indian MIC roles for Radar
  • RBE 2 AESA
    • Back end customized Indian software
    • Compatible to fire indigenous BVRAAMs
      
    • Certain more weapons option packs available under IAF is also planned to be included.
    • The weapon pack integration includes
      • Astra Mk1 and MK2 When available
      • Brahmos NG
      • Spice PGMs
      • Anti radiation Missiles of Indigenous Origin
      • SAAW based family of Anti runway Missiles (Both Explosive and EMP types)
    • The weapons package also includes taking over the role of Nuclear Assets in Toss bomb and Air Launched Missile form
  • SPECTRA
    • Beyond the threat library shared between India and France , addition of Indian specific libraries will be done locally as well
    • This includes the EM frequencies of Pakistan and China based Assets (Airborne and Ground Based)
    • SPECTRA will also provide guidance to these integrated weapons packs
  • M88-4E Customised Engine
    • A special pack of ECO beyond French standards is applied for Indian Engines
    • It includes High altitude package and Hot weather desert package
    • Additional measures for dust and condensation has been incorporated.
    • Over a period of time a Safran M88 core powered Kaveri will be incorporated in the Rafale Fleet of IAF

 

[#hydra#]

Insider updates thanks to @PARIKRAMA

• The present 36 deal's 2 air bases - Ambala and hasimara will have the following
  • New Shelters of HAS type
  • New hangars
  • New Operating Surfaces
  • De-briefing room
  • Mission Simulator and Training small room
  • Main Simulator Training complex at Air force HQ
• Present IAF Rafales will get
  • Interconnection with AFNET and Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS)
  • IACCS is an automated command and control system for Air Defence (AD) operations on which the whole network of SAM system including our indigenous BMD, S-450 MKI and Barak 8 based MRSAM and XRSAM complex , Spyder and Akash systems will be integrated.
  • The connectivity with AFNet will lead to integrating all ground-based and airborne sensors, AD weapon systems and C2 nodes with Rafale Sensor suite for a to and fro communication
  • This implies Rafale will be communicating with
    • IAF’s AWACS,
    • UAVs ,
    • Aerostat,
    • Other Fighters ,
    • Military and Communication satellite like GSAT 7A
    • Ground based assets - SAMs /BMDs
    • & C4I command centers.
  • Targeting POD is Litening G4 pod on Rafale.
  • RWR (Radar Warning Receivers) and Low band Jammers included in the deal as a part fo additional measures
• BEL Role + DRAL+ Other Indian MIC roles for Radar
  • RBE 2 AESA
    • Back end customized Indian software
    • Compatible to fire indigenous BVRAAMs
      
    • Certain more weapons option packs available under IAF is also planned to be included.
    • The weapon pack integration includes
      • Astra Mk1 and MK2 When available
      • Brahmos NG
      • Spice PGMs
      • Anti radiation Missiles of Indigenous Origin
      • SAAW based family of Anti runway Missiles (Both Explosive and EMP types)
    • The weapons package also includes taking over the role of Nuclear Assets in Toss bomb and Air Launched Missile form
  • SPECTRA
    • Beyond the threat library shared between India and France , addition of Indian specific libraries will be done locally as well
    • This includes the EM frequencies of Pakistan and China based Assets (Airborne and Ground Based)
    • SPECTRA will also provide guidance to these integrated weapons packs
  • M88-4E Customised Engine
    • A special pack of ECO beyond French standards is applied for Indian Engines
    • It includes High altitude package and Hot weather desert package
    • Additional measures for dust and condensation has been incorporated.
    • Over a period of time a Safran M88 core powered Kaveri will be incorporated in the Rafale Fleet of IAF

What's his opinion on increasing rafale orders from present 36.

 

[BON PLAN]

What's his opinion on increasing rafale orders from present 36.

36 more, at least (in G to G deal. In MII, that can be more)
If not India spent too much money for indigenisation, bases accomodation, training....

IAF will not make the same mistake than with Mirage 2000 : too few planes, and when they wake up, the line was closed.

 

[wiseone2]

India readying IAF base to receive Rafale fighters
Rahul Bedi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
02 October 2017


India’s federal government has approved INR2.20 billion (USD33.6 million) to develop facilities at an Indian Air Force (IAF) base in the north of the country to accommodate one of two squadrons of the 36 Dassault Rafale fighters it ordered last year from France.

India's federal government recently approved INR2.20 billion (USD33.6 million) to develop facilities at an IAF base to accommodate one of two squadrons of the Dassault Rafale fighters (similar to this one) it ordered last year from France. (Dassault)

Official sources told Jane’son 2 October that the IAF will build several aircraft shelters, hangars, and maintenance amenities at its Ambala base, located 218 km north of New Delhi, for the Rafales, which are scheduled to begin arriving there in September 2019.

They said several teams of experts from Dassault had visited the air base in recent months and are now in the process of finalising plans for the IAF to receive the first Rafale squadron that will be known as the ‘Golden Arrows’.

“Ambala is an obvious choice for the IAF to base a Rafale squadron in the western sector, as the aircraft can be easily scrambled to meet any potential threat posed by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF),” said military analyst Air Marshal V K Bhatia (retd).

The air base is located about 200 km from the Pakistani border and was bombed by the PAF in 1965 during the second of three wars that the neighbouring countries fought after becoming independent 70 years ago.

The Ambala base houses two squadrons of the Jaguar combat aircraft and one of the MiG-21 ‘Bison’ fighter.

The IAF is also upgrading its Hashimara fighter base in eastern India for the second Rafale squadron that is expected to be deployed along the country’s disputed and restive frontier, with China.