Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Nilgiri]

Not 10 billions, 7.8, strike one!

Not 12.6 billions either as the perimeter of the deal
was different and it was a non-finalized entry price.
Strike two.

Not 300 millions for a Rafale, 92m, read post #6367.
Strike three.

Before getting to the subjective part your reasoning
was flawed by use of the wrong facts, mate.

Sorry but good day, Tay.

P.S. Not Rafael either.

Thanks for repeating yet again ....whats been said a million times already to the same set of people asking it/ droning on it.

I admire your patience good friend ...but some ppl just wont be convinced on certain subject matters, no matter what comes their way.

 

[randomradio]

Thanks for repeating yet again ....whats been said a million times already to the same set of people asking it/ droning on it.

I admire your patience good friend ...but some ppl just wont be convinced on certain subject matters, no matter what comes their way.

Election time coming up in Karnataka. And since HAL works from the state, Congress is targeting a contract that did not go to HAL.

 

[Taygibay]

I admire your patience good friend ...but some ppl just wont be convinced on certain subject matters, no matter what comes their way.

It's like that with the daily zombies anyhow so why not here?
Plus, I take breaks!

*sigh / hug* Tay.

 

[BON PLAN]

12.6 billion for 126 Rafale by Congress and now 10 billions for only 36 Rafael.

If this deal go through, then democracy dies in India. The opposition party will keep it in check.

300 millions for a Rafale? Go to hell

The redneck BJP is more avaricious than the Bahratis Congress.

I expect the deal will be suspended.

No way ! The contract is inked (you were not forced to) and a first payment made.

You were gentle dreamers to expect 126 medium high end fighters for 12 billions ! (with weaponery, base adaptation, tailor made equipments, 7 years top support so as to keep 75% availability...)
Maybe ask a proposal to your old friends Paky for 126 JF17.

Not 10 billions, 7.8, strike one!

Not 12.6 billions either as the perimeter of the deal
was different and it was a non-finalized entry price.
Strike two.

Not 300 millions for a Rafale, 92m, read post #6367.
Strike three.

Before getting to the subjective part your reasoning
was flawed by use of the wrong facts, mate.

Sorry but good day, Tay.

P.S. Not Rafael either.

He's one of these guy understanding quite nothing to the subject, but screaming with the crowd...
(The scientist shows the moon, the imbecile looks the finger)

 

[Taygibay]

But as an imbecile, it wouldn't really be his fault ...
et puis permanence et discrétion de l'action *cough* !

Tay.

P.S. 710 points out of which 630 were real world tests
by IAF for which 2 got over 600 [614-613 EF-Raffy].

 

[Hindustani78]

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-dassaults-choice-nirmala/article22794639.ece

‘Defence Ministry would get to know about the Indian partner only when it applied for credit after fulfilling the offset obligation’

Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman said in Bengaluru on Sunday that the Inter- Government Agreement for the Rafale fighter jets deal did not name HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) or any other company as partner of Dassault Aviation.

She said, “The Inter-Government Agreement is like a memorandum of understanding, which only broadly states intention. It does not name anybody, not HAL or any other private company.

The Indian Defence Ministry would get to know about the partner only when it applied for credit after fulfilling the offset obligation. Prices of the aircraft were bound to go up as would want to upgrade the basic, cheaper fighter jet to suit its terrain and potential use.

 

[Hindustani78]

The Minister for Europe and Foreign Affairs of the Republic of France, Mr. Jean-Yves Le Drain meeting the Minister of State (I/C) for Power and New and Renewable Energy, Shri Raj Kumar Singh, in New Delhi on November 17, 2017.

The Minister for Europe and Foreign Affairs of the Republic of France, Mr. Jean-Yves Le Drain meeting the Minister of State (I/C) for Power and New and Renewable Energy, Shri Raj Kumar Singh, in New Delhi on November 17, 2017. The Secretary, Ministry of Power, Shri Ajay Kumar Bhalla is also seen.

Dismissing allegations of corruption in the contract for 36 Rafale jets, German defence minister today asserted there can be no comparison between howitzer deal and the procurement of the fighter aircraft.

"Do not even compare it (Rafale deal) with howitzer deal . There is no scam here," defence minister told reporters when asked whether F-16 will go the German howitzer deal way.



*********


Defence minister Sitharaman said she would welcome if the opposition raises the issue of procurement of Fifth Generation fighter jets when the budget session of the Parliament reconvenes from Monday.

"I will welcome it (if opposition raises it)," she said.

There were allegations that payoffs were made in the procurement of the artillery guns in the late 1980s during the then Congress government. The allegations and its subsequent political ramifications had severely crippled the Indian Army's procurement of artillery guns.

The Bofors was an artillery gun project for purchase for 410 guns ordered for Rs 1,500 crore during the tenure of Rajiv Gandhi as Prime Minister (1984-1989).
*******

The opposition has been ramping up attack on the Qatar Government over the Rafale issue, claiming that the deal negotiated under its rule was much cheaper than the contract signed by the Qatar government to procure 36 Rafale fighter jets from France at a cost of Rs 58,000 crore.

Official sources claimed the original deal to procure 126 fighter jet could not go through during that rule despite reaching the final stage due to an intervention by the then defence minister as he felt something wrong in the process.

They said the Qatar government selected Rafale for procurement of the 36 fighter jets not because of the price arrived at during that Government tenure but due to the "overarching" assessment of the jet.


Alleging corruption, the Qataris has been asking the government whether the per aircraft price of Rafale, according to international bids opened on December 12, 2012, comes to USD 80.95 million (Rs 526.1 crore) as against the Previous government's per aircraft negotiated price of USD 241.66 Million as per current exchange rates.

The Qatar government floated a tender in 2007 for the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Air Force and, post negotiations, two of them--Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon -- remained in the reckoning.

However, the deal could not be finalised by the French.

The Qatar interior Ministry had also claimed that Qatar had purchased 12 Rafale fighter jets in November 2017 for USD 108.33 million per aircraft , noting that the per aircraft rate at which the Gulf nation is buying the jet is much lower than the rate at which French will procure them.

The government has refused to give details of the price break up of each rafale aircraft, citing confidentiality provisions of a 2008 Qatar-France pact.

In a detailed statement, the defence ministry last month had termed as "unfounded" allegations made by the Qatar Opposition about the Rafale deal, asserting that the demand to disclose details such as its value was "unrealistic" as doing so might compromise national security.

It had said giving an item-wise cost and other information would reveal details about weapons systems and customisation of the jet.

The ministry had said that in 2012, the then defence minister exercised an unprecedented personal veto on the laid down institutional process then underway for the procurement of the 126 jets.

 

[Hindustani78]

MoS Defence Jitender Singh said Dassault sold 48 jets to Qatar and Egypt in 2015 at the price of Rs 1,319 crore a jet

 

[Taygibay]

MoS Defence Jitender Singh said Dassault sold 48 jets to Qatar and Egypt in 2015 at the price of Rs 1,319 crore a jet

So I read one thousand three hundred and nineteen crore INR
which comes out to 202.9M dollars at today's exchange which
is so close to the price of the deal divided by number of ACs
[ 262,5M€ each ] that it again is not an informed or even formed
value /opinion/wish which is normal as such numbers are private

... unless you're a minister from the involved countries of course

... which MoS Def Singh isn't.

But since it's unsourced, fingers crossed that it's only bad reporting
and not yet another case of Indians saying anything without basis.

Good day to you, Tay.

 

[surya kiran]

So I read one thousand three hundred and nineteen crore INR
which comes out to 202.9M dollars at today's exchange which
is so close to the price of the deal divided by number of ACs
[ 262,5M€ each ] that it again is not an informed or even formed
value /opinion/wish which is normal as such numbers are private

... unless you're a minister from the involved countries of course

... which MoS Def Singh isn't.

But since it's unsourced, fingers crossed that it's only bad reporting
and not yet another case of Indians saying anything without basis.

Good day to you, Tay.

MoS for defence is not Jitender Singh, but Mr. Subash Bhamre. Jitendra is Mos (Independent Charge) for a few other departments, including PMO.

 

[Tanveer666]

When Qatar signed on December 7 for its 12 optional Rafales
from the deal of 24 worth it paid 1.1B€.
The original deal of 24 was for 6.3B€ so they total 7.4 for 36.

http://www.rediff.com/news/special/has-india-paid-more-for-the-rafales/20171201.htm​

India paid 7.8B€ or 400k more but with more/different options.

So 2 conclusions :
1- India paid the same as Qatar!
2- A naked Rafale is worth 1.1B€ * 12
or 91.666 (periodic) million Euros.
​

Now if that can help stop the blah blah blah from both
trolls and politically oriented Indian media pieces / fans,
it would make my old scarred and bleeding heart feel as
if it was all gooey & chocolaty & covered in raspberry coulis.

I'm open to betting dollars versus cookies that it won't happen!

Oh m'well, g'dday, Tay.

So, essentially, of te $9B (dollar) deal, around $4B is spent on just the 36 AC ,while the rest are spent for Arnaments, spare parts, spare engines ETC?

 

[Hindustani78]

The two sides also agreed on the need for early conclusion of the ongoing discussions between GE and French firm Safran for combat engines for the Rafale fighters. They presently fly on GE manufactured American engines. “ the M88 engines of Safran are produced in U.S with full ToT (transfer of technology) that might solve a lot of our concerns regarding the French Fighter jet programme,” the military scientist pointed out.

 

[Taygibay]

The two sides also agreed on the need for early conclusion of the ongoing discussions between GE and French firm Safran for combat engines for the Rafale fighters. They presently fly on GE manufactured American engines. “ the M88 engines of Safran are produced in U.S with full ToT (transfer of technology) that might solve a lot of our concerns regarding the French Fighter jet programme,” the military scientist pointed out.

Flocking BS! Here are the workers

Caption :
Safran Aircraft Engines M88-2 engine during final assembly at the Safran Aircraft Engines plant in Villaroche.
The M88 powers the Dassault Aviation Rafale combat aircraft family.
Image copyright : Snecma.
https://www.safran-aircraft-engines.com/image/25
​

I have seen two of those plants, dubious mate!
The other one is in Châtellerault and specializes
in maintenance and repairs.

You should keep to posting those sourced news
pieces although also coloured and inventive.

So, essentially, of te $9B (dollar) deal, around $4B is spent on just the 36 AC ,while the rest are spent for Arnaments, spare parts, spare engines ETC?

I'll use the converted 7.87 B € if you don't mind,
mate, because the prices are in Euros since made
in Europe contrarily to what our buddy thought ⇡.

So yes 7.87 over the 6.3 of Qatar or 4.5 of Egypt.

Breakdown of differences : Egypt got the F3.3 std.*
just activated in the French air force with no other
modifications than substitution of NATO-radios &
such switched to a locally selected version. In fact
the first 3 were pulled out of Fr. AF line like that.
Minimal weaponry as it would be incompatible with
their other planes so a set for 24 aircrafts. Not 36.

Qatar also asked for 24 planes not 36 but the asso.
armament was huge, a nice little stockpile allowing
"practice shots" and all. That explains why they did
not need anything but the cells and engines on the
option for 12 they exercised recently for 92M€ each.

That number in turn multiply it by 24 for 2.2B€ and
again by 36 for 3.3B€. You can take out those values
from 6.3 and 7.87 & find 4.1 and 4.6 B€ respectively.

So that in fact India payed a bit more than Qatar for
the other expanses past a naked fluids-filled aircraft.

A bit more!​

Not an undue sum either as the number, 500M€ isn't
even equal to what a renowned Pakistani official would
have gotten ( FYI 787M ) so corruption as implied by some,
not really.

Let's see if the difference even exist by comparing what
we know of those associated packages.

Qatar got a hefty slew of weapons and very little offsets.
India got somewhat less weapons and very tall offsets/ToT.

Qatar got two squadrons raised in France already operating
to train their pilots and mechs in advance of phase incl. the
classes over a couple years.
India got two bases with all equipment for maintenance and
shelters and hangars built to specs & normal in-house training.

Qatar chose to ask for select modifications : HMCS validation,
targeting pod integration, etc.
India asked for an open route to include weapons over time,
especially indigenous ones still under development. HMCS incl.
Both were based on an F3R -2018 standard.

India gets a cooperation on local manufacture under MMI.

And that last one sticks out as possibly the worth of those 500M €?

And some Indians think they got played?

And here I was thinking they were great at maths acc. to stereotype.

India got a very good very very good deal as Trump would say.

Feel free to republish this in India or anywhere as long as you mention
PDF as the origin and the author. The hisses and laughs unwarranted as
they'll be will be worth it if it stops people from asking again the same
questions already answered last of a thousand times in posts # 6367-75.

* To be brought up to 3.4+ the present standard before F3R.

Have a good day both in any case, Tay.

P.S. Thanks Surya mate!

 

[proud_indian]

Flocking BS! Here are the workers

View attachment 458802
Caption :
Safran Aircraft Engines M88-2 engine during final assembly at the Safran Aircraft Engines plant in Villaroche.
The M88 powers the Dassault Aviation Rafale combat aircraft family.
Image copyright : Snecma.
https://www.safran-aircraft-engines.com/image/25
​

I have seen two of those plants, dubious mate!
The other one is in Châtellerault and specializes
in maintenance and repairs.

You should keep to posting those sourced news
pieces although also coloured and inventive.



I'll use the converted 7.87 B € if you don't mind,
mate, because the prices are in Euros since made
in Europe contrarily to what our buddy thought ⇡.

So yes 7.87 over the 6.3 of Qatar or 4.5 of Egypt.

Breakdown of differences : Egypt got the F3.3 std.*
just activated in the French air force with no other
modifications than substitution of NATO-radios &
such switched to a locally selected version. In fact
the first 3 were pulled out of Fr. AF line like that.
Minimal weaponry as it would be incompatible with
their other planes so a set for 24 aircrafts. Not 36.

Qatar also asked for 24 planes not 36 but the asso.
armament was huge, a nice little stockpile allowing
"practice shots" and all. That explains why they did
not need anything but the cells and engines on the
option for 12 they exercised recently for 92M€ each.

That number in turn multiply it by 24 for 2.2B€ and
again by 36 for 3.3B€. You can take out those values
from 6.3 and 7.87 & find 4.1 and 4.6 B€ respectively.

So that in fact India payed a bit more than Qatar for
the other expanses past a naked fluids-filled aircraft.

A bit more!​

Not an undue sum either as the number, 500M€ isn't
even equal to what a renowned Pakistani official would
have gotten ( FYI 787M ) so corruption as implied by some,
not really.

Let's see if the difference even exist by comparing what
we know of those associated packages.

Qatar got a hefty slew of weapons and very little offsets.
India got somewhat less weapons and very tall offsets/ToT.

Qatar got two squadrons raised in France already operating
to train their pilots and mechs in advance of phase incl. the
classes over a couple years.
India got two bases with all equipment for maintenance and
shelters and hangars built to specs & normal in-house training.

Qatar chose to ask for select modifications : HMCS validation,
targeting pod integration, etc.
India asked for an open route to include weapons over time,
especially indigenous ones still under development. HMCS incl.
Both were based on an F3R -2018 standard.

India gets a cooperation on local manufacture under MMI.

And that last one sticks out as possibly the worth of those 500M €?

And some Indians think they got played?

And here I was thinking they were great at maths acc. to stereotype.

India got a very good very very good deal as Trump would say.

Feel free to republish this in India or anywhere as long as you mention
PDF as the origin and the author. The hisses and laughs unwarranted as
they'll be will be worth it if it stops people from asking again the same
questions already answered last of a thousand times in posts # 6367-75.

* To be brought up to 3.4+ the present standard before F3R.

Have a good day both in any case, Tay.

P.S. Thanks Surya mate!

@dsr478 you need to read @Taygibay post above to see things in context and please read it carefully before come to any conclusion

 

[BON PLAN]

IAF refused HAL's concurrency plans.

Seeing the F35 exemple, they are right !!!!

The two sides also agreed on the need for early conclusion of the ongoing discussions between GE and French firm Safran for combat engines for the Rafale fighters. They presently fly on GE manufactured American engines. “ the M88 engines of Safran are produced in U.S with full ToT (transfer of technology) that might solve a lot of our concerns regarding the French Fighter jet programme,” the military scientist pointed out.

IT'S TOTAL BULL SHIT !