Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Matrixx]

Please quote at least parts of the article and not only post the link, thx!

text added

 

[Hulk]

With the price negotiations meandering into the fourth year, an impatient Narendra Modi intervened, circumventing the elaborate Request for Proposal (RFP) system of competitive bidding under which the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal was initiated. The prime minister decided to purchase the Rafales “off the shelf” without transfer of technology at the government-to-government (G2G) level.

This was portrayed as Modi’s “out of the box” solution for a problem that didn’t really exist. Plainly, he mistook the hard, extended, bargaining between the two sides as evidence of red tape, and cutting it as his unique achievement. But impatience is a liability in international relations and can cost the country plenty.

Rather than pressuring French president Francois Hollande and the French aviation major, Dassault, which is in dire straits and was in no position to resist sustained Indian pressure to deliver the Rafale and the technologies involved in toto to India, Modi eased off, promising a munificent $5billion-$8 billion for 36 Rafales off the shelf minus any reference to the L1 (lowest cost) MMRCA tender offer, possibly a buy of another 30 of them, and no onerous technology transfer obligation.

It is a turn that must have astonished Hollande and Dassault with its exceptional generosity, surpassing in its muddle-headed excess Narasimha Rao’s handout of Rs 6,000 crore in 1996 to Russia to prevent the closure of the Sukhoi design bureau and production plant in Irkutsk, in return for nothing, not even joint share of the intellectual property rights for the Su-30MKI technologies subsequently produced there, which could have kick-started the Indian aerospace sector. Then again, India is a phenomenally rich country, don’t you know?—the proverbial white knight rescuing the Russian aviation industry one day, French aerospace companies the next.

But let’s try and see if sense can be made of Modi’s Rafale deal. Much has been said about the G2G channel as a means of securing low prices. The record of acquisitions from the United States in the direct sales mode, however, shows no marked drop-off in the price for the C-17s and C-130J airlifters and the P-8I maritime reconnaissance planes. But in terms of maintenance, almost all the 20-odd ANTPQ-36/37 artillery fire-spotting radar units bought by the army from the Pentagon, for instance, are offline due to the paucity of spares. Supplier states in this situation routinely manipulate the spares supply to configure politico-military outcomes they desire. No saying what France will do with respect to the entire fleet of IAF Rafales in the years to come. Usually, the practice also is to sell the platform cheap but rake in extortionist profit selling onboard weapons and spares. In any case, it is unlikely the price of a fully loaded Rafale will be less than $200 million each or $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, $13 billion for 66 of these aircraft, and $25.2 billion for 126 planes.

Then again, French fighter planes have proved inordinately expensive to maintain. How expensive? According to a recent report by the Comptroller and Accountant General, in 2012-2013, for example, the total cost of upkeep of all 51 Mirage 2000 aircraft in the IAF inventory was Rs 486.85 crore compared to Rs 877.84 crore for 170 Su-30MKIs—meaning, the annual unit cost of maintaining a Mirage was Rs 9.5 crore versus Rs 5.2 crore for the more capable Su-30MKI. Now ponder over this: The cost of upkeep of a Rafale is authoritatively estimated at twice the cost of the Mirage and, hence, four times that of Su-30!

The “Super Sukhoi” avatar of the air dominance-capable Su-30 entering IAF is equipped with the latest AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar permitting the switching between air-to-air and air-to-ground roles in flight, and which radar will be retrofitted on the older versions of this plane in service. In the event, in what combat profile exactly is the Rafale superior?

The defence minister Manohar Parrikar was partial to the Su-30 option, having publicly stated that it was more affordable—its procurement price half that of a Rafale, and that owing to improved spares supply condition, its serviceability rate would rise to 75 per cent by year-end, exceeding that of the Mirage, incidentally. Even so, the loyal Parrikar praised Modi’s Rafale initiative as providing “minimum oxygen” for the IAF without letting on that it will maximally oxygenate French interests and industry!

While Modi talked of a low G2G price for the Rafale, he said nothing about its servicing bill. According to a former Vice Chief of the Air Staff, the total life-cycle costs (LCC) for a fleet of 126 Rafales calculated by Air Headquarters is over $40 billion. How will the LCC be downscaled if only 36 or 66 Rafales are eventually bought? If the real acquisition price of the ordnance-loaded Rafales is added to the LCC the total outgo will be upwards of $50billion-$55 billion, a figure this analyst had mentioned many moons ago.

Indeed, the odds actually are that India will end up buying the entire MMRCA requirement from France. Why? With 36 aircraft slotted in the direct sales category, it is already cost-prohibitive for any Indian private sector company to invest in a production line valued at $5billion-$6 billion to produce the remaining 60 or even 90 aircraft. In other words, by pledging to buy enhanced numbers of Rafales from Dassault the Narendra Modi government will be constrained by economic logic to buy the rest from this source as well, a denouement the IAF had always desired. Why else was the IAF Chief Arup Raha so desperate to get the PM to commit to buying significant numbers of this aircraft outright on the pretext of “critical” need when the Rafales will come in only by 2018 at the earliest but importing Su-30s from Russia would have beefed up the force by this year-end?

Previous prime ministers have been victimised by bad advice, and paid the political price, for instance, Rajiv Gandhi with regard to the Bofors gun. Modi will have to carry the can for this Rafale transaction—a boondoggle in the making. With the opposition parties and Dr Subramaniam Swamy waking up to its potential to politically hamstring the BJP government and mar Modi’s prospects, anything can happen.

Some gullible people think decisions worth billions of dollars are taken without thinking through it and just based on someone's bad judgement. People can be educated but common sense cannot be imparted.

 

[Hindustani78]

Rafale deal: Dassault likely to enter into JV with Indian firm | Zee News
Last Updated: Sunday, May 3, 2015 - 15:17

New Delhi: The multi-billion deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets could see French defence major Dassault Aviation entering into a joint venture with state-run HAL or any private player to set up a base here for augmenting its existing production line.

Defence sources said such a step, if taken will not only allow the French firm to ramp up its production rate but will help it to meet offset obligations in India, likely to be 30-50 per cent of the sales value.

Considered as the first major push under 'Make in India' category in defence sector, the approach will also mean that the French company would stand a better chance in case the Indian government decides to go for more Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft later than the initial 36 agreed.

It will allow Dassault Aviation to set up manufacturing facilities in India to augment its existing production line in Merignac in France under a joint venture with HAL or a private player of its choice. From the operation and sustainment perspective also, creating of these facilities will help the IAF, the sources said.

These issues among others would be discussed during the forthcoming visit of French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian on May 6 with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar and National Security Advisor Ajit Doval, they said.

The Minister is flying down on May 5 from Qatar to firm up the modalities as India wants the fighter aircraft as soon as possible.

"This visit will focus on firming up the broad parameters for the deal under which the contract would eventually be inked," the sources said.

French sources said they "are open to any idea" but insisted that nothing has been fixed as yet.

"We will have to see how the meeting will go and then get a feedback to actually decide what can be done. We are open to all ideas. Something will have to be done," they said when asked about the plans for a joint venture.

The production rate of Dassault Aviation for Rafale stands at about 1 aircraft per month. However, the company has bagged three major contracts this year totalling to 84 aircraft, all of which have to be delivered fast.

The latest contract to be won by Dassault was from Qatar for 24 Rafale fighter jets and MBDA missiles.

Last month, India and France had agreed to get into a government to government contract for 37 Rafale jets in fly-away condition to be delivered keeping the critical requirement of the Indian Air Force in mind.

In February, Egypt had become the first foreign buyer of Rafale with a contract for 24 aircraft. Also, the orders of the French Navy are pending.

While all the three deals are under government to government contract, contours of the agreement in case of deal with India are still unknown as this would be first such deal between France and India in defence.

PTI

 

[Thorough Pro]

isn't india buying off the shelf jets in ready tom fly condition? if yes then what is the JV for?

 

[Hindustani78]

isn't india buying off the shelf jets in ready tom fly condition? if yes then what is the JV for?

I think its more about manufacturing facilities in India.

 

[halloweene]

@sancho sry was writing two pieces, one for Defesanet about Serpentex exercise and on for our blog about Paris Air and Space museum. So many sales also it was hard to follow. Generally speaking, french are very slightly proud of success (even if some criticise Qatar) and mostly indifferent. On french air fora it was Champagne...

 

[sancho]

isn't india buying off the shelf jets in ready tom fly condition? if yes then what is the JV for?

As @Hindustani78 said, it's a JV to divert production parts to India, since our procurement laws demands 30% of the value of the deal, to be diverted back to India. The JV part is nothing new though, only that the new government wants offsets to be from the purchased product and not of other things. Boeing for example diverted the production of P8 airframe parts to HAL, as offsets in the P8I deal which would be ok according to the new policy, while they provided offsets to windtunnel projects as part of the C17 offsets and that's somehow not good anymore for whatever reasons.

 

[Abingdonboy]

isn't india buying off the shelf jets in ready tom fly condition? if yes then what is the JV for?

36 jets are being off the shelf from France.

The JV is for manufacturing many more (108+) Rafales IN INDIA.

 

[sancho]

@sancho sry was writing two pieces, one for Defesanet about Serpentex exercise and on for our blog about Paris Air and Space museum. So many sales also it was hard to follow. Generally speaking, french are very slightly proud of success (even if some criticise Qatar) and mostly indifferent. On french air fora it was Champagne...

Why criticism over the Qatar deal? It's the first one that Dassault actually did on it's own and as it seems, adds orders instead of diverting them from French orders. So that's good isn't it? I only was interested to see the low number of the order, since the speculations were about 36 up to 72. Btw, do you have any infos on their M2Ks and if there is a buy back / 2nd hade sale deal included similar to what the UAE wanted.

 

[SpArK]

How is now France plans to do the production of all these orders?

India, Qatar, Egypt....and maybe more?

 

[sancho]

How is now France plans to do the production of all these orders?

India, Qatar, Egypt....and maybe more?

So far there are not much more orders of fighters, since most of them are diverted from the F3+ order of the French government. Only the 24 for Qatar and a few for Egypt will be F3Rs and even here it needs to be seen if Egypt gets French initial orders too. The most logical point to increase the production rate, is the change to F3R, since that is the version that will effect most of the customers (possibly the UAE too), which however is the problem for India, since our requirement is based on the current F3+.

At this point there seems to be 180 fighters on order from the French government + 24 from Qatar.

 

[SpArK]

So far there are not much more orders of fighters, since most of them are diverted from the F3+ order of the French government. Only the 24 for Qatar and a few for Egypt will be F3Rs and even here it needs to be seen if Egypt gets French initial orders too. The most logical point to increase the production rate, is the change to F3R, since that is the version that will effect most of the customers (possibly the UAE too), which however is the problem for India, since our requirement is based on the current F3+.

At this point there seems to be 180 fighters on order from the French government + 24 from Qatar.

Do they have capabilities for production increase.

Is there any update on on light fighter options as told by Manparikka?

 

[sancho]

Do they have capabilities for production increase.

Is there any update on on light fighter options as told by Manparikka?

Yes, they can ramp up the production up to 30 fighters a year, but that's only possible if additional orders requires more fighters being produced. French orders being diverted to export customers, doesn't require that, since it don't add numbers, until the French government orders new once to replace the once they gave up. But at the current financial state, they are more happy to get money back, than spending more. They might add the orders at a later stage, depending on the export orders and the requirements of the French forces (most older Mirage already replaced, the M2Ks being upgraded and even the the French navy will already have most of it's Rafale by this year end if I'm not wrong, so there is no urgent need).

 

[Hindustani78]

Last Updated: Monday, May 4, 2015 - 13:15
Rafale deal negotiations to begin this month: Manohar Parrikar | Zee News

Zee Media Bureau

New Delhi: Ahead of French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian's visit, the government on Monday said that negotiations for procurement of Rafale fighter jets for Indian Air Force (IAF) will begin this month and the multi-billion dollar deal will be finalised "as early as possible".


"The government to government committee will be set up which will begin negotiations on the deal. The negotiations will start anytime in May and we have to conclude them as early as possible," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was quoted as saying by PTI.

Parrikar made these remarks in Goa.

He, however, refused to set any deadline to seal the much-hyped deal claiming "since it is government to government procedure, the deal would be quick".

The French Defence Minister is expected to be in New Delhi on May 6 to finalise the modalities for the negotiations.

"He will visit only for the purpose of setting up modalities and take the process forward. We will not be directly involved in future talks. The committee is being appointed for it by two governments to kick start the process and fix the modalities," Parrikar said.

The Defence Minister said the government appointed committee will complete the negotiations in a time bound fashion.

He said that procedure to work with countries in defence sector has been well established.

"We are working government to government with many countries including the US, Israel and Russia. We have already worked with France in past," Parrikar said.

He said since it is an important deal the negotiation aspects will be discussed by the governments and terms for the committee would be set up by the defence ministries.

Government's original plan was to buy 126 Rafale aircraft - valued at around USD 11 billion in the first tender floated in 2007. The planes were envisaged to be made in India with Hindustan Aeronautics.

Given the delays, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced a truncated deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets for over USD 6 billion, to begin with, during his visit to France last month.

With PTI inputs

 

[PARIKRAMA]

DASSAULT LIKELY TO TIE UP WITH HINDUSTAN AERONAUTICS LIMITED FOR PRODUCTION OF FIGHTER JETS

New Delhi: The multi-billion deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets could see French defence major Dassault Aviation entering into a joint venture with state-run HAL or any private player to set up a base here for augmenting its existing production line. Defence sources said, such a step, if taken will not only allow the French firm to ramp up its production rate, but will help it to meet offset obligations in India, likely to be 30-50 per cent of the sales value.

Considered as the first major push under ‘Make in India’ category in defence sector, the approach will also mean that the French company would stand a better chance in case the Indian government decides to go for more Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft later than the initial 36 agreed.


It will allow Dassault Aviation to set up manufacturing facilities in India to augment its existing production line in Merignac in France under a joint venture with HAL or a private player of its choice. From the operation and sustainment perspective also, creating of these facilities will help the IAF, the sources said. These issues among others would be discussed during the forthcoming visit of French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian on May 6 with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar and National Security Advisor Ajit Doval.

The minister is flying down on May 5 from Qatar to firm up the modalities as India wants the fighter aircraft as soon as possible. “This visit will focus on firming up the broad parameters for the deal under which the contract would eventually be inked,” the sources said. French sources said they “are open to any idea”, but insisted that nothing has been fixed as yet. “We will have to see how the meeting will go and then get a feedback to actually decide what can be done. We are open to all ideas,” they said when asked about the plans for a joint venture.

The production rate of Dassault Aviation for Rafale stands at about 1 aircraft per month. However, the company has bagged three major contracts this year totalling to 84 aircraft, all of which have to be delivered fast. The latest contract to be won by Dassault was from Qatar for 24 Rafale fighter jets and MBDA missiles.
Dassault likely to tie up with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for production of fighter jets

PRESS RELEASE
Successful first guided firing of Meteor from Rafale
30/04/2015


On 28th April 2015, teams from the French Ministry of Defence, Dassault Aviation and MBDA carried out the first guided firing of the long-range Meteor missile against an air target from a Rafale combat aircraft. The firing, from a Rafale prepared at the DGA’s Cazaux Flight Test Centre (near Bordeaux, S.W. France), proceeded successfully within the secured zone of the DGA Essais de Missiles (previously Centre d'Essais des Landes) in Biscarosse (also near Bordeaux). Following on from earlier missile separation trials carried out in 2013 and 2014, this firing represents an important milestone in the integration of Meteor onto the Rafale in line with the development of the aircraft in its next F3-R standard.

With a throttleable ramjet motor and ‘fire and forget’ firing mode, Meteor is intended for very long BVR (Beyond Visual Range) air defence operations. Thanks to the performance of the RBE2 AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar which equips the Rafale (the only European combat aircraft currently equipped operationally with this kind of sensor), it is able to intercept targets at very long range thereby complementing the currently deployed MICA missile used for combat and self defence. The first Meteor missiles will be delivered as of 2018 to equip the Rafales of the French Air Force and Navy.

The result of a cooperation between France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden and the UK launched in 2003, Meteor is a federated programme enabling the consolidation of the European defence industry and technology base associated with the missile sector. The main industrial partners of MBDA UK, the industrial prime contractor for the programme, are MBDA France, MBDA Italy, SAAB (Sweden), Bayern-Chemie (a fully owned subsidiary of MBDA Deutschland) and Inmize (Spain)

Missile systems, defence systems - MBDA missiles